A new Wes?

[Phillip J Fry 0]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Yellow Wall"]

Phillip J Fry wrote the following post at 21/01/2014 10:01 PM:

Tactical changes explain the absence of Wes far more logically than either a distrust of creative players or a fear of backlash from the fans. The majority of this season, we''ve either played a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 where does Hoolahan fit into those systems? 

Exactly so Mr Fry.So why would we buy a similar player who still would not fit into a Hughton system?Anyone expecting an improved, similar styled player to Hoolahan is going to be disappointed.[/quote]

.....because it is Wes''s limitations rather than his strengths that keep him out of the team, particularly lack of pace, lack of goals and lack of tackles won. A tricky playmaker would be an asset and fit the tactics whether 442 or 433.

They would also be very very expensive...........Juan Mata anyone, only £40m?

[/quote]

Exactly so. How many times have we mentioned on this board that Wes can play only one position? He either plays behind the striker or he doesn''t play. An ''improved'' Hoolahan might be more adaptable and able to play in a variety of systems. Juan Mata is a good example. Yes, his preferred role is behind the striker but he can also play as either a left or right midfielder in a 4-4-2 or a winger in a 4-3-3. Tactical adaptability guarantees you more games, limitations will reduce game time.

[PurpleCanary 4,278]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Yellow Wall"]

Phillip J Fry wrote the following post at 21/01/2014 10:01 PM:

Tactical changes explain the absence of Wes far more logically than either a distrust of creative players or a fear of backlash from the fans. The majority of this season, we''ve either played a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 where does Hoolahan fit into those systems? 

Exactly so Mr Fry.So why would we buy a similar player who still would not fit into a Hughton system?Anyone expecting an improved, similar styled player to Hoolahan is going to be disappointed.[/quote]

.....because it is Wes''s limitations rather than his strengths that keep him out of the team, particularly lack of pace, lack of goals and lack of tackles won. A tricky playmaker would be an asset and fit the tactics whether 442 or 433.

They would also be very very expensive...........Juan Mata anyone, only £40m?

[/quote]I think it is obvious from our pursuit of Quagliarella that Hughton wants that kind of player. But given that we can do without, and that Howson, when fit, can sort of fill that role, and possibly Gutierrez too, I doubt we will spend serious money on a replacement this month. My guess is that it will be put off until the summer.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]I think it is obvious from our pursuit of Quagliarella that Hughton wants that kind of player. But given that we can do without, and that Howson, when fit, can sort of fill that role, and possibly Gutierrez too, I doubt we will spend serious money on a replacement this month. My guess is that it will be put off until the summer.[/quote]Spot on , Purple. There may be a place for that type of player in our squad in the near future , but, given that the task now , sadly, is  cobbling enough points together to stay in this league, I do not see him as a priority. Like a few others on here, I really cannot see why people automatically assume that even though CH has hardly played WH this season, he would suddenly want to go out and splash a load of cash on a ''direct'' replacement, particularly in this transfer window. If you have a garden tool that sits in the shed all year doing nothing, then you sell it on Ebay, you don''t rush out to B+Q to buy another of basically the same thing, do you ?

[VegasCanary 0]

[quote user="Surfer"]" Snodgrass overtook Hoolahan as the main creative force last season."

And he in his turn will be replaced as we upgrade our squad.[/quote]

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh wait was that serious?!

[ZLF 147]

over the last two seasons Snodgrass has 7 goals and 7 assists in 42 appearances (1 every 3 games) - significantly only one of each this season.

Wessis contribution in the same period is 42 appearances and 3 goals with 4 assists. His overall contribution in the prem league is 75 appearances, 7 goals, 11 assists, one every 4 games, below snodgrass who remains our main creative force. Of the current squad only Pilks is better than Wessi in contribution per game, with the next best Fer.

We will miss that different spark Wes gives us if he does leave. we can find another creative.

App G/A Average

Snod 42 14 3

Pilks 70 19 3.7

Wessi 75 18 4.2

Fer 21 4 5.3

Red 22 4 5.5

BJ 82 12 6.8

Howson 57 7 8.1

[Tetteys Jig 780]

Comparing Wes to garden tools! Now we''re talking!

How about that trusty pair of garden shears you bought a while back when you lived in a small 1 bed house with a small garden. They did their great job of cutting back the weeds and reaching into those gaps that your other garden tools couldn''t sort out.

A buyer then chose your house over all the others on your street citing the back garden as the clincher.

You were then able to upgrade to a better house with a bigger garden and also able to upgrade your roster of garden tools to put in your new garden shed.

Now with such a big garden, the garden shears (Wes) were less needed but still provided their use. Over the years, you had other more versitile tools that could ''do a job'' and clear away most of the mess in the garden and over time, the trusty shears drifted to the back of the shed.

Then one day, a really annoying weed sprouts in the corner of the house and none of your tools can reach the root to cut the weed away. You really need to nip this problem in the bud (literally) as it has potential consequences on the entire structural safety of your house if the weed is allowed to develop.

You think to yourself, "i''ll just get them trusty shears, they''ll do the job." You go to the shed and they have gone missing! You can''t find them anywhere, the neighbour has probably nicked them!

Now you have a problem that none of your current tools can handle. Question is, do you go out and buy another Wes, or do you use the opportunity (and new found wealth) to look for something that will a) solve the current problem and b) solve other problems that have been mounting up, like that big branch overhanging the house that needs chopping down. Also, do you buy now or wait until the sales in a few months? That weed won''t go away! We can keep chopping away at it with other tools, but none are as inscisive as trusty Wes the shears were.

I''d say we go for b). We are at a higher level now than when we first got Wes and that means looking at a higher calibre player. As they say, buy crap, buy twice.

There is always c) buy an old but very good pair of shears that will likely solve the weed problem but you know they will be useless in a couple of years.

[splutcho 23]

People on here carrying on the theme of going totally OTT about everything and acting as though Wes never plays at all. Of course we will look to replace him if he goes. Get your heads out of your arses.

[Tetteys Jig 780]

Exactly Splutcho, and even with Wes here, it''s apparent that due to the important role he has played for us over the years, a long term successor needs to be found as well. We really do at times miss a schemer like Wes out there, someone capable of producing something out of the ordinary, an unpredictable, mercucial talent. They don''t have to play all the time, but every team needs one guy.

Chelsea have too many of them, Man U have none, hence the potential Mata deal.

Villa have none, we have one. If this deal is to go ahead, we need to replace him.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Comparing Wes to garden tools! Now we''re talking!

How about that trusty pair of garden shears you bought a while back when you lived in a small 1 bed house with a small garden. They did their great job of cutting back the weeds and reaching into those gaps that your other garden tools couldn''t sort out.

A buyer then chose your house over all the others on your street citing the back garden as the clincher.

You were then able to upgrade to a better house with a bigger garden and also able to upgrade your roster of garden tools to put in your new garden shed.

Now with such a big garden, the garden shears (Wes) were less needed but still provided their use. Over the years, you had other more versitile tools that could ''do a job'' and clear away most of the mess in the garden and over time, the trusty shears drifted to the back of the shed.

Then one day, a really annoying weed sprouts in the corner of the house and none of your tools can reach the root to cut the weed away. You really need to nip this problem in the bud (literally) as it has potential consequences on the entire structural safety of your house if the weed is allowed to develop.

You think to yourself, "i''ll just get them trusty shears, they''ll do the job." You go to the shed and they have gone missing! You can''t find them anywhere, the neighbour has probably nicked them!

Now you have a problem that none of your current tools can handle. Question is, do you go out and buy another Wes, or do you use the opportunity (and new found wealth) to look for something that will a) solve the current problem and b) solve other problems that have been mounting up, like that big branch overhanging the house that needs chopping down. Also, do you buy now or wait until the sales in a few months? That weed won''t go away! We can keep chopping away at it with other tools, but none are as inscisive as trusty Wes the shears were.

I''d say we go for b). We are at a higher level now than when we first got Wes and that means looking at a higher calibre player. As they say, buy crap, buy twice.

There is always c) buy an old but very good pair of shears that will likely solve the weed problem but you know they will be useless in a couple of years.[/quote]Good post, James. I enjoyed reading that !The trouble is that you are overlooking one very salient point. This pesky weed that you seem to have a problem with.....well, frankly I wouldn''t be attacking it with any sort of shears. However young/old, expensive , easy to use. As you say, the weed keeps coming back, so it''d be time to go out and get a bl**dy big bottle of weedkiller. The sort (Roundup) where the weed does not keep rearing its ugly head. In other words, change things fundamentally, and pursue a different approach to weed control.

[Fergodsake 0]

Hasnt Georginio Wijonaldum been linked to liverpool? In which case as much as id want him, I dont think we would stand a chance. Liverpool have a good chance of being in the CL next year, whereas we will still be touted as relegation candidates whatever we do.As for Hughes, again a good player, but the reality is that there is no incentive for good championship sides to sell in January. For arguments sake, if Derby have a 1 in 4 chance of promotion and winning the premier leagues riches for at least a year, plus the parachute payments even if they go down, why would they sell there best player to a premiership club in January and potentially sabotage that. Are best bet would actually be to do what Utd did with Zaha, and buy him on the condition we immediately loan him back for the rest of the season, but we are not actually in a position to do that as that would mean spending on a replacement who wouldnt arrive for months. All in all, I just dont see us being able to get an upgrade on Wes for the money we can offer against the clubs who will be bidding against us. Not in a January transfer window when clubs want to keep their squads together and prices are so inflated.God I wish I was proved wrong though.

[Simon Lappin, King Of Spain 0]

Ryan Gauld anyone? 18 year old attacking midfielder at Dundee utd would obviously be a gamble but seems to have bags of potential, great technique, lovely passing and tons of vision. He may be the same size as Wes but is very quick, so has the ability not just to beat players but go past them as well. He can also shoot from outside the box which is something Hoolas for all his strengths can rarely do. Due to his pace can play on the wings as well as behind the front man in the number 10 role which is a big advantage.

Negatives are obviously young, untested outside the spl and lack of size. The concern is would he get muscled out of games by the likes of Yaya Toure et al? Also would he have the ability to find the space he needs to create? But then again it''s the same for all players coming from outside the prem, you never truly know how they are going to adapt until they have a run of games.

Think he would be a very interesting long term replacement in the CAM/No.10 role. May not be a target in this window, but would love for us to have a look at him as a potential long term option in the summer.

[VegasCanary 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]over the last two seasons Snodgrass has 7 goals and 7 assists in 42 appearances (1 every 3 games) - significantly only one of each this season.

Wessis contribution in the same period is 42 appearances and 3 goals with 4 assists. His overall contribution in the prem league is 75 appearances, 7 goals, 11 assists, one every 4 games, below snodgrass who remains our main creative force. Of the current squad only Pilks is better than Wessi in contribution per game, with the next best Fer.

We will miss that different spark Wes gives us if he does leave. we can find another creative.[/quote]

I find that very narrow minded analysis of Wes - he tends to be the creative midfielder that sets up opportunities to either create an assist or to take it further and score. Snodgrass is not our main creative replacement as all he does is run down the wing and then usually take on 11 players and lose the ball or when he''s tired or see''s the planets align puts a cross in.

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]

I don''t see what the rationale is behind that assertion. There''s no question we need a playmaker along the lines of Wes in there, but I think they''d need to be able to win the ball for themselves as well as be a playmaker to cope with the extra strain of a four man midfield.[/quote]The rationale is that we''ve seen time and time again that our coaching staff values positional discipline and defensive solidity over everything else. All our players deemed deficient in those areas have been phased out or simply marginalised since Hughton came in.The sort of players who are ''Hughton'' style players defensively but also able to create are the Yaya Toures of the world and stand way outside our price range.Its likely that any replacement we can afford will have to be a comprimise and I think we all know which side of the balace will be favoured. I expect to see a Toivonen style attacking midfielder who can also act as a target man instead of a Hoolahan esque player.

[MancCanary 0]

[quote user="Aggy"]Agree with Lincoln here - Hoolahan wants to leave (it is fairly safe to assume) because he isn''t getting played here. Why would Hughton not play Hoolahan and then sign a more expensive version as a replacement? Especially when, to be quite honest, Hoolahan would still do a more than adequate job in the role if Houghton wanted him to do so - as we have seen in the couple of times Hoolahan has been in the side this season due to injuries etc.

How often he played last season is not particularly relevant. We aren''t playing the same formation or the same players as last season![/quote]

I think this is missing the point. We''re wanting an *upgraded* wes not a like-for-like replacement with the same limitations.

Ie we want a player with a physique more suited to the premiership, who can score goals *AND* pick a lovely pass like wes can.

Hughton isn''t so defensively minded that he wouldn''t love a player like this, its just that he hasn''t got one. Mainly because they''re the most expensive and sought-after type of players. But I''m sure if we bought one he would play.

Wes isn''t playing because hughton, rightly or wrongly thinks he doesn''t offer enough positives and too many negatives. So obviously he''s not going to buy a player with the same limitations as wes. A Toivenen type number 10 is obviously what we''re after as made clear by our chasing of said player and others like Quagliarella.

[Norwich Fer Me 0]

Break the bank and get in Adam Maher

[The Ghost of Percy Varco 0]

[quote] user="Simon Lappin, King Of Spain"] Ryan Gauld anyone? 18 year old attacking midfielder at Dundee utd would obviously be a gamble but seems to have bags of potential, great technique, lovely passing and tons of vision. He may be the same size as Wes but is very quick, so has the ability not just to beat players but go past them as well. He can also shoot from outside the box which is something Hoolas for all his strengths can rarely do. Due to his pace can play on the wings as well as behind the front man in the number 10 role which is a big advantage.

Negatives are obviously young, untested outside the spl and lack of size. The concern is would he get muscled out of games by the likes of Yaya Toure et al? Also would he have the ability to find the space he needs to create? But then again it''s the same for all players coming from outside the prem, you never truly know how they are going to adapt until they have a run of games.

Think he would be a very interesting long term replacement in the CAM-No.10 role. May not be a target in this window, but would love for us to have a look at him as a potential long term option in the summer.[/quote]This would be a good punt as is technically VERY good, akin to Messi in many ways. A gamble for sure, but aren''t all transfers.I expect he might be aiming higher than us given that Real Madrid were keen on him.He does look like he''s 10 though.

[Simon Lappin, King Of Spain 0]

But if we tried to get in early, turn his head and give him the opportunity to really put himself if the shop window for the big teams, it could, and this is a big could, be a win win for him and us. Could be our Garet Bale (that''s possibly being a tad over optimistic!)

[Barossa 0]

[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]Lincoln - Hughton started Wes 28 times last season. So that pretty much quashes your idea that Hughton ''doesn''t like this type of player''.[/quote]

Not really. Hughton wouldn''t change things so quickly and risk a backlash from the fans. He''s gradually been phasing wes out.[/quote]Wes made more apperances under Hughton last season than for Lambert the previous year.

[Tetteys Jig 780]

A good thing about Will Hughes - his initials are the same as Wes (meaning my cousins "W.H" tattoo on his arse would still hold meaning)