Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
thebigfeller

A huge sigh of relief - and the way ahead for the future

Recommended Posts

So after maybe the most fraught week at Norwich City since August 2009, we can all breathe a huge sigh of relief: for now, at least. We got the win we needed; Chris Hughton is surely safe for the rest of the season now. The time to make a change has passed.For the record, he wouldn''t still be in charge if I''d had my way; and it''d take another 5 points from the next 4 games (which sounds easy - but believe me, it''s not) to convince me that we won''t remain in serious relegation trouble for the rest of the season. The Newcastle game is another acid test in that sense: win it, and we''ll suddenly be where we should''ve been had we beaten Swansea: floating comfortably in mid-table, and leaving the fretting and nail-biting to others. Fail to win it, and the stop-start, stop-start drift of this difficult campaign will surely resume.But I won''t be churlish here. Just because I wanted (and even still want!) Hughton out, and have done for 3 months now, doesn''t mean he doesn''t deserve the utmost credit for yet again delivering victory when the chips were truly down. Including West Brom last season - this club''s biggest, most important match in many, many, many years - that''s now FOUR times when Chris Hughton''s Norwich had to win, or else... and did so. And that says the most enormous amount for his calm under fire - keeping his head when all around him were losing theirs and blaming it on him - and even more, how much the players still want to win for him.My disappointment this season stems from the belief so many of us held that, after all those signings we made in the summer, this would be the campaign when we''d truly establish ourselves in the Premier League. That we''d make a statement: NCFC aren''t just back, but are here to stay. Pre-season, I thought we''d finish 10th; and properly managed, I still think that''s where we should be right now (a good few points ahead of the pack, and only a handful behind Southampton), and where we should''ve ended up.But here''s the thing. Did I, and so many fans like me, get a wee bit ahead of ourselves? Did the board''s strategy - they have, after all, only budgeted to finish 16th - in fact factor in the very real prospect of this instead being another struggle; another crawl, inch by hard fought inch, to survival? And is Hughton actually only here on the horses for courses basis of just getting us through this period, before we upgrade and kick on under someone else?For so, so long in the none-too-distant past, this club under-achieved to the most chronic extent, and sold itself unforgivably short. It had to get real, and to get ruthless. During those interminable years of toil, if someone had said to me that not only would we get back into the Prem, but we''d survive comfortably for the first two years, and give ourselves a real chance of doing so again in the third, I''d have suggested they got themselves to a padded room at once. Yet we have - so in that sense, where''s the problem here?Not only that - but in order to do so, surely most aspiring clubs of Norwich''s means have to make some sort of sacrifice: to do what we singularly failed to do in 2004/5, and accept that in order to establish ourselves, what we serve up on the park might well be ugly for a considerable time? However much 17th place will always be the minimum target, we''re not looking at playing this way for the next 5 years or something! We''re just doing so until we''re in a position to produce more under someone else.How''s this for a scenario? Norwich continue to stumble and stutter for the rest of the season, continue to flirt with the drop, raising palpitations across Norfolk and giving us all more sleepless nights... but in the end, finish up about 14th or so. And as soon as the summer arrives, the board acts: thanking Chris for all that he''s done, but looking overseas as we enter a new, more ambitious era. Because after 3 years in this league, we''d be established: we''d have a very real base on which to build. Perhaps even - mind those flying pigs - think about beginning to develop a side capable of winning a major trophy.Maybe this has been the plan all along? Let''s face it: a good, intelligent, visionary board doesn''t become a bad one overnight; and all their talk about "continuous improvement on and off the park" is hardly just talk. We''ve come far too far under their watch for that to be the case. Premier League football is a curious beast. It demands one eye on the present - on the very next match - and another on the future - on growing the club and securing it for the long term - at all times. Over the last 5 years, this board has understood that much better than most, and has generally struck an excellent balance between the two: rightly vetoing the idea of infrastructure coming ahead of the football team''s immediate prospects, but remaining fully cognizant of the need for long term growth and to clear the debt - which to their immense credit, they have.Of course, this is all to assume that we navigate the choppy waters ahead between now and May: no small assumption, which brings us back to the ever-pressing need of keeping one eye firmly on the present. But if we do - if we get through this turbulent spell - there will, once more, be cause for the highest of hopes. Given everything he''s been through over the last week - not least including internet gobshites such as myself demanding his head on a platter - the very warmest of congratulations to Chris Hughton and everyone at the club on this priceless victory. And as ever...OTBC!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A good post, which puts things into perspective for us.

That was a huge win, not just for Hughton, but for the club as a whole.

4 out of the 5 bottom teams have sacked their manager. I would say that only Palace are truly benefiting from it (possibly Sunderland, but the only way was up after Di Canio!)

It will be frustrating, but stick with CH and we''ll finish as expected - around 13th.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excellent post for this hour of the morning, not normally up at this early but the Junior Canary of the house was having a nightmare.

Think it may have been football related, plenty of us have been having those of late.

The thing that I pulled out of your post which I think we could have as our club moto is ''''we''ve come too far'' and ok it was in direct reference to our Board of Directors seeking ''Continuous Improvement'' but we really have.

Just a handful of years ago we were staring Armageddon in the face in League 1and now look at us. Whilst it''s been a fairly tedious, ponderous and mostly un enjoyable twelve months at the club nine of us want to see all the hard work undone, we''ve come too far for that.

Now when does MOTD start?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A good post Bigfella, I have been through the same emotions as you but have come to the conclusion that expectations have been to high too soon. That''s not to say that we shouldn''t reach for the sky, but those ambitions must be tempered with some realism.

Football is now an instant gratification business, but unless you have a rich benefactor building success is not, even with a rich benefactor it is not guaranteed, for us it is going to be a hard and difficult road.

I have a problem with you saying that you still want Hughton out, that''s making it personal rather than being about the club?

I would share you congratulations to CH et al, well done!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the peace and quiet of the early morning sense and reason can be found. Great post.Do all at NCFC - the board, the coaching staff and the players deserve congratulations for keeping their heads and grinding out results where needed?We are a ''work-in-progress'' still and with continued support from all concerned on the field, off the field, in the stands and from afar I have confidence that we will become the established PL club that we aspire to be. We may have to put up with some dire football in the interim but is that such a price to pay for longer term success?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="thebigfeller"]How''s this for a scenario? Norwich continue to stumble and stutter for the rest of the season, continue to flirt with the drop, raising palpitations across Norfolk and giving us all more sleepless nights... but in the end, finish up about 14th or so. And as soon as the summer arrives, the board acts: thanking Chris for all that he''s done, but looking overseas as we enter a new, more ambitious era. Because after 3 years in this league, we''d be established: we''d have a very real base on which to build. Perhaps even - mind those flying pigs - think about beginning to develop a side capable of winning a major trophy.[/quote]A good read.  One thing in your possible scenario - I have always thought  that the Hughton project had to be three years long at least.  A year to consolidate, a year to progress the squad and a year to make things flourish.  I''ve seen nothing that has changed my opinion of that.  If after three years we have developed the "full package" we will all love Hughton and want him to stay. If we develop by the end of the third year, but not significantly, then it would then be a time to re-assess.   As long as we stay in this league, I would like to see Hughton given the time he needs to fully develop his team - and for me that has to be at least three years.    By fully develop I mean getting the best out of the players he has bought - including a better attack with more goals, which is what we all want to see. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great post OP, a really enjoyable piece and I agree with a good deal of it.

It would not surprise me at all to see Hughton keep us up and be dismissed shortly after with a new guy coming in. I think the board would be that ruthless and in all honesty its the way managerial change should work if you want to get the right manager for the long term and not just a stop gap.

But as you say we will find out in the summer, important thing is to ensure there is another season of PL football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

["Yellow and Green"]A good post, which puts things into perspective for us. That was a huge win, not just for Hughton, but for the club as a whole. 4 out of the 5 bottom teams have sacked their manager. I would say that only Palace are truly benefiting from it (possibly Sunderland, but the only way was up after Di Canio!) It will be frustrating, but stick with CH and we''ll finish as expected - around 13th.

 

 

 

 

Kingsway,

 

While I''m not a believer in many of Hughtons ways its very niave to blame all of our struggles on Hughton.

 

Out of our squad how of them would interest a top 8 club - the answer to that is 3-4 at the most and thats being generous!

 

We''ve had many injuries that have disrupted the development of the team as a unit.!

 

I laugh when people go about Mackay as if he''d come into the managers role and everything in the Norwich City camp would be rosy and we''d see exciting football!

 

Mackays a defensive manager, hes not proven at Premiership level and Cardiff are one of the poorest teams I''ve seen this season!

 

We can stay up just leaving things as they are, though I doubt it will be comfortable. Changing manger now would be a massive gamble that could go thje wrong way!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Our expectations at the start of this season were blown up by

beating a totally disinterested Man City on the last day of the previous season

and spending record sums, FOR US, on transfers in the summer

and having several months to build up RVW as a world beater before he even arrived at Colney.

What everyone ignored was the fact that our salary budget, whilst undoubtedly higher than last year, does not allow us to compete with most of our rivals.

Amongst many others those rivals are employing Parker, Richardson, Bent, Carroll, Downing, Joe Cole, Adam Johnson, Brown, Caulker, Agbonlahor, Crouch, and Huddlestone.

All are, or have been, England players. Most have not been particularly successful at that level (who has?!?) and because of that it''s easy to dismiss them as "failures". But most, if not all, would walk improve our first team - just not for the salaries we offer.

If you look at our squad we have the likes of Howson, Turner, Ryan Bennett and Hooper; they haven''t even made it as far as being England "failures". Were Wes, Snodgrass , Pilkington or Russell Martin English they would be nowhere near the national team.

The moment reality dawned on me was when the Board revealed we are free from external debt. That is great to hear - I bet Bolton fans would love to be able to hear that - but it also goes a long way to explaining why Hughton, or any other potential manager, has to operate with constraints that Bruce, Allardyce, Solskjaer, Hughes, Poyet or the new bloke at Fulham don''t.

The Premiership riches have been used to stabilise the club - no bad thing, in fact if we did go down it would be a massive advantage. That is good long-term thinking; the trouble is when we spend a fortune getting to a game we want instant entertainment and positive results now, not in 3 years time.

I''m delighted we won at last yesterday and on balance think we can, just about, hold on. But even if we stay up I think Hughton should, like Pullis last year, be moved on. You can''t get away from the fact that the football is painful to watch. We''ve even pinched last place on MOTD from Pullis more often than not, and that takes some doing.

Realistically until the Board are willing to open the coffers so that we CAN afford to pay better quality players, especially in midfield, we will always be struggling in the bottom half. Let''s just hope that in the summer they find a way to do just that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great post from the OP.

I think we are more likely than not to stay up this season and the bookmakers'' prices bear that out. If we do survive, going on in a similar vein to the rest of this season then I do think the board will need to take stock this summer and decide whether they feel CH can move us on.

We have improved the playing squad no end over the last five years but it''s fair to say that the style hasn''t been to many fans'' liking, and that really is the main beef - whilst the outers have tried to cite our results record, it isn''t all that bad - 11th placed finish last season and currently 12th this season.

The question is whether CH can take us to the level that, say, Southampton have achieved this season - playing attractive football and on course for about 50 points by the season end. The jury is perhaps out on that. That is what the board need to weigh up when deciding whether to continue under the current regime. A tough decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bigfeller, I thought that was an outstanding post. Like it or not, Premier League football is moneyball to an extent in that. Both Paul Lambert and Chris Hughton got the club very respectable mid-table finishes with teams that could be considered relegation fodder based on squad value. I reckon it will take another £75m pounds of squad investment to turn us into proper contenders on a reasonably even footing with Newcastle and Everton.

Personally, I think some of the criticisms of Hughton''s performance have a degree of merit to them. The rhetoric that he''s ''clueless'', ''too defensive'' etc I put little store by. Playing a 4-4-2 system eight times this season in this league is positively bold, bordering on reckless, yet those eight games have got us four of our wins and two of our draws this season. I think he''s far more creative and willing to try different approaches than he''s given credit for. If his skills can develop in line with the clubs financial power then I don''t see why he shouldn''t be a long term fixture seeing as the benefits of long-term stability in management to a club performing to it''s maximum potential are a massive bonus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Two excellent posts here...the usual perspective and elegance from Bigfeller but also a very thoughtful and astute response from Absent Friend. I want to see attractive football too but also see the point in attritional football to secure enough points to survive. I wanted CH to leave at the start of the season too but admired his ability to bring in some quality additions. There is no question he has the knack of creating 3 points when you really feel that anything less would bring about his downfall. And like Bigfeller that is something deserving of respect.

I think if we stay up I can see 30m being spent easily next year. And we need a step change in quality across the pitch. No offence meant to the current crop (and why should they be offended...on xx grand a week) but Absent Friend calls it right in his comparisons. For up and coming Championship clubs is going to get even harder to compete....another reason staying in the Premiership this year is so vital.

Now then, can we get 3 points Tuesday week? For sure we can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post and to some degree sums up my frustration both with and for Chris Hughton.

I still have no reason to question any of the signings he has made and of course the no1 aim or his job is the preservation of our premier league status.

I think if his stewardship is considered a project we must strive for continuing to move in the right direction and sadly much of what we have seen this season must be considered going backwards. I will b the first to admit I did not find the football we played last season inspiring even when it was being effective and obviously there has been less of everything this season.

I cannot truthfully imagine a Norwich City board ever replacing a manager that secures our Premier League position and I suppose in truth I wouldn''t really want to regardless of my stance as an "outer".

However despite changes in formation and personnel after 18 months Chris Hughton looks no closer to putting together a team that has the ability to be solid and not concede goals whilst dangerous on the break.

Our Goals for and against figures this season just cannot be argued with in the context of our competitors.

I hope we sign a complete midfielder before the end of the month that may help out on both ends of the pitch and complete a decent squad (perhaps another CB as well)

Most of all I hope we stay having shown some semblance of improvement so that we don''t have to ask these questions again.

I was happy to accept last season on the basis of stability and transition and as much as I have been unhappy and would have preferred a change this year if I truly believed there would be better times and more importantly exciting football to watch I would be happy to offer more time for the manager.

I agree that the time has passed where it would be viable to change the manager before the end of this season, and hope for better times ahead.

Chris Hughton has until the end of the season to convince me he can be more than he has been, thereafter surely there can be few to argue he should be given more time.

Those that are willing to feed on scraps to retain premiership status I admire you but I cannot contemplate continuing to pay every year for this, I do not accept as a whole any other club (with the possible exception of West Ham) has shown so few reasons to hope for more.

I have been a season Ticket Holder for around 30 years and cannot recall being more underwhelmed by a manager, some have been dreadful and many have had terrible squads but I believe in these players and think sometimes if the manager can motivate them they are capable of so much more.

Football supporters need to be optimistic, come on Chris give us something to look forward to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread has just restored my faith in the message board. Excellent, and balanced points all round.When I get a bit of time I will try and respond in kind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, nice post.

For me, the most obvious line to respond to is "But here''s the thing. Did I, and so many fans like me, get a wee bit ahead of ourselves?"

The answer; yes!

There are 10 or 11 teams in this division who are struggling to pull clear of relegation. At least half of those have been in the premiership longer than us (ie; they have received more big TV deal money etc. than we have and can therefore afford to pay higher wages and bigger transfer fees).

Yet, apparently, some fans think those teams should be struggling and we shouldn''t be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
An interesting post from the OP. A good one from KeelansGlove. As a Hughton-Outer (It was the West Ham game that turned me) who has never thought he should be sacked (the test is whether you could convince your fellow directors to vote for such a proposal and that point has never been reached)...If we get relegated Hughton will be sacked. If relegation, in McNally''s melodramatic phrase (in an interview I don''t think he should have given), is death then someone has to pay the price. The idea that he should be kept on because he is some kind of long-term club builder bears no relation to football reality.If we stay up I would be extremely surprised to see him sacked. If relegation is death then not being relegated is life, and despite fine words and bold predictions/aspirations from various directors staying alive equates to success.Unless. Survival is by a very narrow margin, with - as would then be the case - the key indicators showing a marked regression from last season. Say a final points tally of 36-38 compared with 44 last season (which was my reality-based target for Hughton for this). That might convince the board this slide was going to carry on, with fatal results. But there would need to be an obviously better (tactically astute) candidate in the wings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="PurpleCanary"]As a Hughton-Outer...who has never thought he should be sacked[/quote]Oh dear Purps, how can you want him out but not sacked? The only alternative would be for him to walk and I can''t really see him doing that.The only other explanation is you think someone like Man Utd will come in for him. Even the people who support him think that''s unlikely. [;)]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote user="lappinitup" quote user="PurpleCanary"As a Hughton-Outer...who has never thought he should be sacked/quoteOh dear Purps, how can you want him out but not sacked? The only alternative would be for him to walk and I can''t really see him doing that.The only other explanation is you think someone like Man Utd will come in for him. Even the people who support him think that''s unlikely. [;)]/quote

I think PC probably meant to write "never could be sacked" ie, if we stayed up the board wouldn''t sack him, and since his remit, we understand, is to keep us up, then it would be the right and proper thing for the board to do.

This season is incredibly tight. There will be further losses and the pressure will be back on again, but there will also be further victories and because it''s so tight with so many teams bunched together, a couple of results can see us up and down like a yoyo.

Enjoy it. This is seat-of-the-pants football. Much more fun than being safely mid-table with nothing to play for.The closer we get to the end of the season the more nerve-wracking it''s going to get. Bring it on!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]I think PC probably meant to write "never could be sacked" ie, if we stayed up the board wouldn''t sack him, and since his remit, we understand, is to keep us up, then it would be the right and proper thing for the board to do.

This season is incredibly tight. There will be further losses and the pressure will be back on again, but there will also be further victories and because it''s so tight with so many teams bunched together, a couple of results can see us up and down like a yoyo.

Enjoy it. This is seat-of-the-pants football. Much more fun than being safely mid-table with nothing to play for.The closer we get to the end of the season the more nerve-wracking it''s going to get. Bring it on![/quote]

No. "Outer" in my case is a short way of saying:I

believe as a Premier League manager Hughton''s flaws outweigh any

virtues. In particularly his lack of tactical nous (before and during

games) is a major drawback. We will never have that talented a squad, so

to stay up we need a manager who will get the most out of it. I don''t

believe Hughton is capable of that (just as Worthington wasn''t). But at

no time this season has there been a point at which a compelling case

could be made that would persuade the directors (and this is the test)

that he had to be sacked there and then. There just hasn''t been that

tipping-point. And I do not see one happening this season.So I could refer to myself as:A Hughton-I believe as a Premier League manager Hughton''s flaws outweigh any

virtues. In particularly his lack of tactical nous (before and during

games) is a major drawback. We will never have that talented a squad, so

to stay up we need a manager who will get the most out of it. I don''t

believe Hughton is capable of that (just as Worthington wasn''t). But at

no time this season has there been a point at which a compelling case

could be made that would persuade the directors (and this is the test)

that he had to be sacked there and then. There just hasn''t been that

tipping-point. And I do not not see one happening this season.
Or I could just call myself a Hughton-Outer...
[:P]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="PurpleCanary"]
Unless. Survival is by a very narrow margin, with - as would then be the case - the key indicators showing a marked regression from last season. Say a final points tally of 36-38 compared with 44 last season (which was my reality-based target for Hughton for this). That might convince the board this slide was going to carry on, with fatal results. But there would need to be an obviously better (tactically astute) candidate in the wings.
[/quote]If there is a marked regression from last season then NCFC are not alone. Only Southampton and Villa can claim any points improvement after 22 games compared to last season                                               This Season                     Last SeasonSouthampton                              31                                     22Villa                                              24                                     19Norwich                                       23                                     26Stoke                                           22                                      29WBA                                            21                                      33Swansea                                     21                                     30Fulham                                       19                                      25W Ham                                       18                                      26Sunderland                                18                                      25 For my part this simply reflects the fact that the top teams have moved a further step away from the rest in terms of quality. The regression looks general to me with only Villa and Southampton improving on last seasons form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''m heartened to finally read a two-page thread that hasn''t descended into a slanging match. Everybody on both sides have expressed their views articulately and with restraint. Exactly how this board should be used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Vanwink"]I have a problem with you saying that you still want Hughton out, that''s making it personal rather than being about the club? [/quote]No, that''s not ''making it personal'' at all. In my estimation, are we more or less likely to stay up and go on to prosper with CH at the helm? Less; hence my wanting him out since October time. I''m still extremely nervous about the remainder of the season: this could end up being touch and go, which is just pushing things way too close for comfort if you ask me.But... as I stated in the OP, credit where it''s due for him holding his nerve and his team securing three absolutely priceless points. I''m always open to changing my mind about him completely if Saturday proves a definitive turning point: I highly doubt it will, though. But even if it doesn''t - even if we just stutter on as before - he''ll still have done his job if he keeps us up; and the board would look extremely smart indeed if they chose that moment, ie. the summer, to make a change to someone better equipped to overseeing better football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Aggy"]Yes, nice post.

For me, the most obvious line to respond to is "But here''s the thing. Did I, and so many fans like me, get a wee bit ahead of ourselves?"

The answer; yes!

There are 10 or 11 teams in this division who are struggling to pull clear of relegation. At least half of those have been in the premiership longer than us (ie; they have received more big TV deal money etc. than we have and can therefore afford to pay higher wages and bigger transfer fees).

Yet, apparently, some fans think those teams should be struggling and we shouldn''t be.[/quote]Oh sure! To explain my reasoning though: I guess I looked at last season''s table, and wondered how well even a weak squad (much weaker than this one) might''ve done with merely reasonable form in the second half of the season, as opposed to the slump we endured instead. And I also looked at our competitors.Pre-season, I had the same clubs in the top 7 as everyone else; but after that, thought Villa would improve significantly (whereas they''ve only improved a little: still very likely to finish 10th though, possibly even 9th if Southampton lose interest); and Newcastle would improve significantly too (but not as much as they have). After that, the stability at the club and signings we''d made left us, I felt, best placed to finish best of the rest: ahead of Saints (but I got that flat out wrong); Swansea (who I envisaged going backwards, but not to the extent they have); and West Brom, who were clearly on the slide over the final two thirds of last year.Then came West Ham - I didn''t appreciate just how bad they''d end up being - before we moved into the relegation strugglers: Fulham, who were plainly in trouble under Jol; Stoke, who I doubted Hughes would improve much; Cardiff, who I thought might just make it after a major struggle; Sunderland, whose appointment of Di Canio always seemed ludicrous and an accident waiting to happen; Hull, who have really surprised me, but aren''t out of the woods yet; and Palace, who I felt had nowhere near enough quality to survive.Of all the clubs I had beneath us, Sunderland and West Ham are bigger, Southampton have considerably more money; West Brom have been a year or two ahead of us ever since 2005. Yet when I look at how we''ve played for so much of this season, and where we are positioned nonetheless, well... if we''d only played half-decently, we''d be 10th! Has to be said though: for all that the Premier League has been divided into two or three leagues within a league for a long, long time now, I never anticipated that fully 11 clubs would all be so mediocre. I thought six or seven would tops. This season, 10th is more like 11th from bottom: it doesn''t mean very much in the great scheme of things. Weird - and yes, I guess it is unreasonable for me to think Norwich would somehow not be subject to the same forces which are clearly affecting so many other clubs.Funny old world - and while fear factor football is logical when the punishment for being relegated is so colossal in financial and sporting terms, it''s still difficult to understand quite why so many sides in such a rich league are so poor. That''s a whole different debate though, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...