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Captain Obvious

Interesting Newcastle perspective on Hughton

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http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/newcastle-could-chris-hughton-sack-6594710It''s literally been years since I last started a thread on here, but this made me think.The above article (which speculates about the irony of Newcastle potentially causing Hughton''s sacking if they beat us) has some very interesting comments from some Newcastle fans,"If he does get the sack, can we have him back please...............? I''ll pay for his train ticket, I''ll pay for a return....the return I''ll gladly give to either MA, JK or AP......."It seems some still think very highly of him - even preferring him over AP. This comment was voted to +9 when I saw it.One Toon fan''s withering assessment of our attitude -"Norwich fans don''t seem to realise that they still have one of the

weakest squads in the Premiership, a squad that always should''ve been

fighting relegation in 16th or 17th instead of bobbing around in mid

table under Lambert and Hughton. For the first time in several years

under the mangers mentioned above, they sunk to around where they should

have been all the time, about the same as Wigan under Martinez and

almost immediately there was talk of Hughton being sacked. Norwich fans are pathetic and deluded about what they have."
My initial reaction to the above comment is to be offended and shout obscenities at my PC.But is there a grain of truth to that? Are we being fickle and expecting too much too fast?Another comment attempts to explain Norwich frustrations -"maybe a nice bloke I have little doubt about that, but the football, the

tactics he was employed in his season and a half have lead to perhaps

75% of city fans wanting him gone. It has been boring, predictable,

defensive and uninspiring for the fans to put up with any longer. He

bought very good players but still doesn''t know how to play them or get

others to play to them either. All in all many believe he has lost his way"
This comment was voted to -8.Is Hughton as bad as we make him out? Or are we just horrible people as the Newcastle fans seem to imply?

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Like the first poster, I would also pay for his train ticket back to Newcastle. It is a well known psychological fact that people look back with nostalgia and forget the problems.

He is not the worst manager we have ever had...but he''s not very inspiring and not the man (imo) to lead us forward to higher finishes and better football. We may not be relegated, but football is more than survival...isn''t it?

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He did well at Newcastle why wouldn''t they want him back?? I personally think he''s doing a ok job but it''s boring and very frustrating to watch, but points total is ok.

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To answer your questions ,, without resorting to pointless insults , I believe that Hughton is out of his depth .

The comments about not being able to get a fairly decent squad to perform ,, and to perform consistently , are spot on .

Hw alo displays a complete lack of being able to read a game from the side lines and change anything to gain an advantage from a stalemate ,,, which is what we have often found ourselves in against some of the poorest premier league sides I have witnessed .

For these reasons alone , the search for a new manager , who is capable of moving forwards and motivating this squad , is now imperative .

That is obviously my opinion , and think that any Newcastle fans who posted that we as NCFC fans are ungrateful ....should have another look at themselves and how they behaved towards Alan Pardew last year !

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There will always be people with an opinion to share,

When I open my eyes & see what is a few metres in front of me then I form my own opinion. I have confidence in my opinion, if I need to check, I look at the stats & sure enough my opinion is correct.

We are not scoring enough goals, we are leaking too many goals, the team is not playing to its potential

The management team have not dealt with the situation so they are at fault.

Just my opinion.

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It is an interesting perspective - and one which most of us are aware of.  He is held in high regard virtually everywhere  - except with some in Norwich.  I wonder who will be proved right in the long term........................

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[quote user="lake district canary"]  He is held in high regard virtually everywhere  - except with some in Norwich.  I wonder who will be proved right in the long term........................

[/quote]You cannot deduce that from the OP at all, Lakey.Both at face value and reading between the lines there are mixed atrtitudes to CH. Which is pretty much my previous understanding of the situation from friends and colleagues who are Toon fans . Don''t really know any Birmingham fans to have an informed flavour of what their take is on him.It''s fair to say that he is held in pretty high regard generally as a bloke, but the attitude to his managerial kudos is FAR more mixed. Not the same thing......

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="lake district canary"]  He is held in high regard virtually everywhere  - except with some in Norwich.  I wonder who will be proved right in the long term........................[/quote]You cannot deduce that from the OP at all, Lakey.Both at face value and reading between the lines there are mixed atrtitudes to CH. Which is pretty much my previous understanding of the situation from friends and colleagues who are Toon fans . Don''t really know any Birmingham fans to have an informed flavour of what their take is on him.It''s fair to say that he is held in pretty high regard generally as a bloke, but the attitude to his managerial kudos is FAR more mixed. Not the same thing......[/quote]Oh dear.  Here we go again.  I did not deduce anything from the op.  I just said he is held in high regard virtually everywhere - which he is.

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If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. The only games that we have been statically favoured to win since the beginning of December are Fulham and Hull at home.

I am constantly bemused by the expectation that we should be top half and up there with Southampton. We do not have players costing over £10 million nor attracting bids of over £20 million.

We fans are ever optimistic and hope for wins which is how it should be. The expectation though damages our view of the team, manager and ourselves because we over expect.

We have a team that is overachieving but the vast majority regard it it as underachieving. That is the disconnect that underlies so much of the angst and distress that so many currently feel.

Before all the smart replies,I am not little Norwich. We have earned our place in the top league and I am proud of that. We have good players and we will improve the squad further. In many respects, we are still a work in progress. I

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I think it''s all about the money. People were happy for us to ''survive'' for the first two seasons in the Premier League. What has changed?

I think the summer changed a lot of people''s views. And mainly because of the amount of money spent. Because historically we have had precious little money to spend on players. Because we spent £20million plus people think we should be mid table - but then fail to look at the teams who are mid-table and how much they have spent on players.

Southampton: Osvaldo - £12-13million, Wanyama - £12.5million, Ramirez - £12million, Lovren - £8.5million, Rodriguez - £7million.

And that''s just their bigger signings.

In many ways I think we had to spend £20+million just to stay competitive and we were playing catch up in that regard to most of the teams around us who had spent strongly for those two seasons prior to this one whilst we were limited to relatively cheap players costing between £2-4million.

I don''t think there is much between the bottom 11 teams going on performances and form this season, although I do feel we can see potential in our side and with no debt to pay off from this point forwards I think we stand more of a chance of being upwardly competitive.

To me, this season is as vital as the previous two, as it represents our first given chance to really challenge to become ''established'' at this level. Stay up and I think we''ll start to see that, with the right investment in playing staff anyway.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]Oh dear.  Here we go again.  I did not deduce anything from the op.  I just said he is held in high regard virtually everywhere - which he is.

[/quote]Please don''t go down the "victim" road yet again Lakey.I rather assumed that, in saying it was an ''interesting perspective'', you were showing your take on it as far as CH was concerned.And I was trying to be a bit more specific, in conceding that pretty much everyone, in Newcastle, London Norwich etc hold him in high regard as a man. But, clarifying that that is not necessarily the case as regards his management skill.

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. . I[/quote]No need to look far for criticism of the methodology. A simple glance at the league table shows how far they''ve got it wrong.

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It is ludicrous to criticise our level of expectation.

Not in the practical sense because in that respect our situation as an historic City with a relatively small and widespread population means a lower fan base.

Our lack of industry and large companies compared to other areas means a smaller corporate patronage.

Our transport links and relative obscurity seems to disincentivise large investors.

Yes, we can do ourselves down.

But, we belong to only one of three areas in the UK which makes a net profit. We have low crime and high living standards. We have a strong regional character and identity seldom recognised nationally and we are quietly but determinidely proud.

It is that pride and sense of worth plus a bit of grievance at lack of recognition and investment which drives us to not only expect comparative success but to bloody a few noses on the way. It is this attitude which makes us succeed and with our resources we have succeeded in recent times but only through that sense of ambition.

As this thread is about CH then the attitude is: just because he is deemed good enough for Newcastle he doesn''t automatically get accepted as good enough for us. Conversely, if he or anyone else does well here the opinions of clubs who think they are bigger are irrelevant.

The classic example of all this in recent times was our belittling of a so called sleeping giant in Leeds Utd when we came face to face. How did that happen? We finally got in a CEO, Manager and Captain who matched our attitude and when two left we found ourselves with Cautious Chris and Lacsadaisical Bassong and this is what p!sses us off.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. . I[/quote]No need to look far for criticism of the methodology. A simple glance at the league table shows how far they''ve got it wrong.[/quote]

I expected better from you Ricky. That''s exactly the point. Our current position is overachieving on statistical expectation yet the consensus is that we are underachieving. That is the disconnect

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. . I[/quote]No need to look far for criticism of the methodology. A simple glance at the league table shows how far they''ve got it wrong.[/quote]

I expected better from you Ricky. That''s exactly the point. Our current position is overachieving on statistical expectation yet the consensus is that we are underachieving. That is the disconnect[/quote]

Put another way, the league table shows how far we''ve got it right.

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Seven teams rated poorer than us on Statto Index, Cambridge. They have been more right than wrong IMO. Funny how Fink Tank rate us so low yet still see us increasing our points advantage over the relegated clubs come the end of the season. I wonder if it''s because of our easier run in?[;)]

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I don;t think our expectations are too high and to be honest i don;t know of any fans who expect or are looking for us to be doing anything more than further establishing ourselves at this level, not being embroiled in the relegation battle and maybe one year soon having a sniff at a cup.

My gripes (and I believe those of the majority of outers) about Hughton have never really been about league position. Its about seeing with my own eyes that the team has regularly not been playing as well as i believe it can and feeling his mindset and approach have in some ways been holding us back, as well as not being particularly exciting to watch. Had the latter not been the case, fans might have been more sympathetic about the former but the two in combo means patience tends to wear thin after a while.

Newcastle have never had the same situation arise because they got rid in a pre-emptive strike and one that ultimately was proven right.

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. . I[/quote]No need to look far for criticism of the methodology. A simple glance at the league table shows how far they''ve got it wrong.[/quote]

I expected better from you Ricky. That''s exactly the point. Our current position is overachieving on statistical expectation yet the consensus is that we are underachieving. That is the disconnect[/quote]

Put another way, the league table shows how far we''ve got it right.[/quote]I am not sure there is a consensus that we are underachieving based on some of these methodologies. There certainly is not a consensus that we should be significantly higher in the table than we are. A few may believe that, but not many. If there is a sensible - sensible because it is fact-based - consensus it is that we are doing worse than last season. That is unarguable.  We are on course to finish on 40 points rather than the 44 of last season. And this despite spending that should have kept our performance levels roughly equal to last season.It is the disconnect in terms of points between last season and this that is the genuine concern.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. . I[/quote]No need to look far for criticism of the methodology. A simple glance at the league table shows how far they''ve got it wrong.[/quote]

I expected better from you Ricky. That''s exactly the point. Our current position is overachieving on statistical expectation yet the consensus is that we are underachieving. That is the disconnect[/quote]

Put another way, the league table shows how far we''ve got it right.[/quote]I am not sure there is a consensus that we are underachieving based on some of these methodologies. There certainly is not a consensus that we should be significantly higher in the table than we are. A few may believe that, but not many. If there is a sensible - sensible because it is fact-based - consensus it is that we are doing worse than last season. That is unarguable.  We are on course to finish on 40 points rather than the 44 of last season. And this despite spending that should have kept our performance levels roughly equal to last season.It is the disconnect in terms of points between last season and this that is the genuine concern.[/quote]Bearing in mind the disconnect is not Norwich City''s alone but the entire bottom half of the Premiership, you could say that as many as ten teams should be genuinely concerned. Statto Index and Fink Tank both see six teams under 40 points this season. I think there will be a minimum of six and probably at least four below 35 points.

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[quote user="Captain Obvious"]One Toon fan''s withering assessment of our attitude -"Norwich fans don''t seem to realise that they still have one of the

weakest squads in the Premiership, a squad that always should''ve been

fighting relegation in 16th or 17th instead of bobbing around in mid

table under Lambert and Hughton. For the first time in several years

under the mangers mentioned above, they sunk to around where they should

have been all the time, about the same as Wigan under Martinez and

almost immediately there was talk of Hughton being sacked. Norwich fans are pathetic and deluded about what they have."
[/quote]Pathetic and deluded enough to expect to beat Luton at home, to not get beat 7-0 away to Manchester City, to manage a better goal a game ratio than 0.81 with a strike force costing approximately £15 million scoring only 6 goals in 30 games, among other things.I''m going to go out on a limb here and say it is neither pathetic or deluded for a Norwich fan to expect more than facts such as these on the basis of what we have.(note i''m not saying Hughton in or out, only that more than a couple of aspects or moments in our performances have been well below par and what we can rightfully expect, and that this post quoted from the Newcastle board is a resounding piece of bull****)

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"] If there is a sensible - sensible because it is fact-based - consensus it is that we are doing worse than last season. That is unarguable.  We are on course to finish on 40 points rather than the 44 of last season. And this despite spending that should have kept our performance levels roughly equal to last season.It is the disconnect in terms of points between last season and this that is the genuine concern.[/quote]That''s why this is a debate that will run and run, Purple.I''m not terribly interested in all these statistical analyses stuff. In the end , all that matters to me is what our final position is in the table and how many points we''ve got. And that is not ''disconnect''So...on the one hand , there are those in one camp  who''ll say "well we''re doing OK...in 12th position" . And those (such as yourself) in the other camp  , who say " we''re not doing very well...on track to only get 40 pts (or less)" I tend to side with your camp on this one, but I quite see that, if we finish in 12th position Hughton and his followers will rightly feel vindicated.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]If you look at the strengths ratings on dectech.co.uk based on the Castrol and University of Warwick systems, with several seasons analysis of every tackle, pass sot and save you will see that we are ranked 20th.

Nowhere no doubt some will criticise the methodology here and the statistics.....

But, thus ranks us 20th and I do think we collectively overrate our team and squad. . I[/quote]No need to look far for criticism of the methodology. A simple glance at the league table shows how far they''ve got it wrong.[/quote]

I expected better from you Ricky. That''s exactly the point. Our current position is overachieving on statistical expectation yet the consensus is that we are underachieving. That is the disconnect[/quote]

Put another way, the league table shows how far we''ve got it right.[/quote]I am not sure there is a consensus that we are underachieving based on some of these methodologies. There certainly is not a consensus that we should be significantly higher in the table than we are. A few may believe that, but not many. If there is a sensible - sensible because it is fact-based - consensus it is that we are doing worse than last season. That is unarguable.  We are on course to finish on 40 points rather than the 44 of last season. And this despite spending that should have kept our performance levels roughly equal to last season.It is the disconnect in terms of points between last season and this that is the genuine concern.[/quote]Bearing in mind the disconnect is not Norwich City''s alone but the entire bottom half of the Premiership, you could say that as many as ten teams should be genuinely concerned. Statto Index and Fink Tank both see six teams under 40 points this season. I think there will be a minimum of six and probably at least four below 35 points.[/quote]That is a fair point, ricardo. The specific concern about Hughton, though, is that this points disconnect, this regression, is a continuation on from the second half of last season, and will carry on. In other words we are on a slide rather than having fallen to a certain point from which we will not fall further. It was the fear that prompted West Brom to sack Clarke.

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Then how do you explain our 12th position and that the majority of other clubs in the bottom half also have a lower points tally. It is the complete lack of perspective from some that shows a lack of grasp of reality

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The irony that hits me with the Newcastle fans opinions is that for me they are the team over performing the most in the Prem so far this season, yet many of then would apparently be happy to get rid of Pardew for Hughton back,

As for our squad I''d say the bottom 11 with 2 or 3 exceptions are very close together. As shown by the table. So I''d say our currently league position is just a few points above where you''d expect us to be from our squad available so far this season. But with the table packed so tight that translates into quite a few league positions.

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The pure truth is, some managers click with some teams and their players and some managers don''t. Ethos, work rate, ambition, experience and personality all play very significant roles in determining how a manager enters, runs and leaves a team.

That happens in every day offices up and down the nation. A manager in one location who is celebrated and respected may well be pilloried and loathed in another.

Life''s rich tapestry...

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I really never understand Newcastle fans. I used to work with one who seemed genuinely disappointed with their season flirting with the Champions League positions after they sacked Hughton because he had no reason to complain about Ashley/Pardew/Llambias.

In answer to a previous post, you can never be proven right that it was the correct decision because you never know what the other person was capable of. On the other hand, there was definitely an improvement in league position and performances and they are still operating above their mean position for the last 20 years or so, so I would feel confident that it was the right move for them and kudos for having hte guts to do it.

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