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Ray

2nd Best Defence In The Prem?

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Some stats to discuss, if you can be bothered.

If we ignore our games against the top 4 in the league then we have conceded less goals per game than all other clubs with the exception of Arsenal

Arsenal 0.86

NCFC 0.88

Chelsea & Everton 0.91

Unfortunately, if we discount these games we are scoring at 0.83 goals per game, only Cardiff 0.77 and Palace at 0.64 score less than us,so no joy there then!!

What does this all prove, my guess is top quality sides can tear us apart but we don''t score enough against the other 15 sides in the league, but we probabbly all knew that anyway!

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Just look at the league.

It''s indicative of the gulf between the top six and the rest of us. We are left to languish in anything from 10th to 20th against teams who are almost a carbon copy of our own. We fight pitched battles hoping to squeak a win by the odd goal and then await the weekends when the ''big boys'' tear us all a new one.

The Premier League exists in such an odd way now...

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If we ignore all our defeats and turn our draws into wins then we would have the best pints total in the league per game

 

or

 

 

if we watch how we play you will realise that our dire football is never really going to be enjoyable

 

 

the critical word being watch

 

 

 

 

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City 1st,

Now you''re just being silly, or is it hopeful and optimistic!! BTW, I''m sure many of us will have a go at having the best PINTS total in the league, well let''s face it sometimes it can drive you to drink.

Oh, I always watch, well at home anyway, and I agree, sometimes dire, occasionally reasonably entertaining or at least nail biting, trying deperately to hang on to a nil nil draw or a single goal win but through it all I do enjoy, I must do or why would I keep going. The things I don''t enjoy I tend not to do or repeat.

Ain''t life grand!

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Don''t you worry about old grumpy bollox Ray. I''ve been keeping an eye on this for weeks. While it''s true that the only table that matters is the league table it amuses me to record how the bottom 12 (Southampton downwards) fare against eachother. Here''s how they stand. (The columns are W D L F A Pts Dif) : -

 

Southampton 7 4 2 21 9 25 12
Norwich 6 4 3 12 7 22 5
C. Palace 6 1 6 11 14 19 -3
Fulham 6 1 6 16 23 19 -7
Swansea 4 5 3 16 10 17 6
Hull 4 5 3 13 9 17 4
Stoke 4 5 3 11 8 17 3
Aston Villa 4 5 3 11 10 17 1
West Ham 3 5 5 12 11 14 1
WBA 3 5 5 12 14 14 -2
Cardiff 3 5 5 7 15 14 -8
Sunderland 1 6 7 10 20 9

-10

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Intersting Nutty, interesting.

So we have only picked up one point against the top 8 in 9 fixtures, now all CH has to do is sort that out and all will be well in the world!!

Rest easy Nutty, I''m chilled about what others say or do, because in and of itself/themself it/they has/have no meaning, oher than what I choose to give it/them and I prefer to stay relaxed, positively discontent at times but generally relaxed.

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Making Plans

And possibly even more laughable that some people are so blind that they can''t see through the point of the OP and the self-deprecating nature of it.

Unfotunately, they walk among us.

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I know what you''re trying to say Ray, but you can''t simply isolate the stats to suit your case.The truth is that we are 16th in the defensive standings, with only 4 teams having a worse defence than us. We all have to play the same teams over the season, so discounting the top four because they happen to have put shedloads past us is ridiculous reasoning.What you have presented DOES highlight how effective the top clubs are at scoring compared to those around them, which is indicative of the huge amounts of cash these teams have spent on players over the last 3/5/10/20 years etc.Without turning this into a Hughton bashing, for a guy who''s meant to have tightened our defence, we certainly aren''t seeing this reflected in the goals against column, especially when the cost has been a massive downturn in the goals for column in the process...

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On the one hand, you uber positives tell us that we have to play ALL the teams in the league twice (the fact that our final four games look difficult is irrelevant) and you have to look at the WHOLE picture, blah blah blah....But now you are cherry picking games against the lower clubs and discarding those against top sides, when it suits your purpose ,to prove a point that frankly is not there, nor does it matter.So which is it to be?Yet another case of the ''no change'' brigade''s delusion and narrow agenda.....

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I know what you''re trying to say Ray, but you can''t simply isolate the stats to suit your case.The truth is that we are 16th in the defensive standings, with only 4 teams having a worse defence than us. We all have to play the same teams over the season, so discounting the top four because they happen to have put shedloads past us is ridiculous reasoning.What you have presented DOES highlight how effective the top clubs are at scoring compared to those around them, which is indicative of the huge amounts of cash these teams have spent on players over the last 3/5/10/20 years etc.Without turning this into a Hughton bashing, for a guy who''s meant to have tightened our defence, we certainly aren''t seeing this reflected in the goals against column, especially when the cost has been a massive downturn in the goals for column in the process...[/quote]Why can''t Ray simply isolate the stats to suit his case......practically everybody else on here does!!!

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[quote user="Fr. Chewy Louie"]Oops, fulham only once in the league, but also arguably sunderland and palace away and swansea home.[/quote]

You say Sunderland away, but I can assure you that the Sunderland fans were far more disappointed than us about that draw. Not saying they are better, but a draw away from home is a decent point. Sunderland were clearly better than their league position stated at the time.

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Reminds me an awful lot of all those ''calendar year'' stat posts. Interestingly, as reported in the pink un, we are top of the bottom 11 mini league (i.e Nutty''s league minus So''ton). What the op, and all the other similar posts show is simply that you can make the stats say anything you want. Ultimately the Hughton in/out debate boils down to entertainment. Are we happy to stay up at the cost of dull, boring footy or do we need to play a more attractive brand of football now we are in our third Premier League season?

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ahhh - Charlton syndrome, I think they used to call it.  Under Curbishley (I think it was him) they regularly attained mid-table safety in the Prem and their fans found it dull.  The Board brought in a new manager to bring a more entertaining brand of football.  The rest, as they say, is history.

 

The OP''s point is another way of looking at the point made on a betting site mentioned on another thread that City are highly predictable this season, getting nothing against the top sides but consistently getting something out of games against mid/lower table sides.  My feeling is that Newcastle are over-achieving at the moment so are a mid-table side, and we should therefore get a point at least, and hopefully a win, tonight.

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I know what you''re trying to say Ray, but you can''t simply isolate the stats to suit your case.The truth is that we are 16th in the defensive standings, with only 4 teams having a worse defence than us. We all have to play the same teams over the season, so discounting the top four because they happen to have put shedloads past us is ridiculous reasoning.What you have presented DOES highlight how effective the top clubs are at scoring compared to those around them, which is indicative of the huge amounts of cash these teams have spent on players over the last 3/5/10/20 years etc.Without turning this into a Hughton bashing, for a guy who''s meant to have tightened our defence, we certainly aren''t seeing this reflected in the goals against column, especially when the cost has been a massive downturn in the goals for column in the process...[/quote]I disagree. I think you can isolate statistics depending on what point you''d like to make.Let''s take this as a theory. Work with me here.Last year, it was quite clear that Hughton had tightened our defense. Many would argue that this was done at the expense of free-flowing, attacking football. A point which I would agree with.However, what if Hughton was trying to change this, but not at the expense of our Premier League status. A good strategy to do this to pick the games in our own ''mini league'' and play the same brand of football that was successful to make sure we keep clean sheets and pick up the results we need to stay in the league against that opposition. This allows you to change your philosophy against the teams you don''t expect results against, in order to try new things, new attacking movements and so on.If you think back to the Arsenal & Chelsea games earlier this season. We played excellent. We attacked, and at the Cheslea game, we even chased a game that Hughton would have never done last year. Hughton was even slated in some circles for not settling for a point, remember?Maybe isolating the stats is a very good way to do it, as it highlights how Hughton is isolating games to play differently? Maybe he wants to play more attacking, but wants to make sure we know the best way how first? Maybe this highlights that Hughton isn''t clueless. In fact, maybe he''s a genius?(For the record, I don''t think Hughton is a genius. I''m still on the fence, but I don''t think he''s as clueless as many on here make him out to be. I do however think there might be something in the theory above.)

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If that actually is the case TGMT, then I think it''s all the more reason why I would rather we replaced Hughton.I don''t want a manager who''s willing to write off anywhere between 6-12 (or more) games per season simply because they are against top 6-8 sides, and instead focus on getting points in the remaining 26-32 games against ''weaker'' opposition!I understand that this isn''t actually what you''re suggesting (which is to keep it tight against those around us whilst trying new things against those who we ''expect'' to lose to), but in essence that''s what''s happening.The other point I''d make is that our defence really isn''t that much better in terms of goals against than it was under Lambert, in fact doing a direct comparison of this season vs 2011/2012, after the same amount of games we''d conceded 36 under PL and 35 under CH - ONE f**king goal different! The tradeoff has been that we''ve scored FOURTEEN less goals in exchange.What a f**king joke, and if this is some grand scheme of Hughton''s, he should be fired out of the nearest cannon for sheer lunacy...

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]If that actually is the case TGMT, then I think it''s all the more reason why I would rather we replaced Hughton.I don''t want a manager who''s willing to write off anywhere between 6-12 (or more) games per season simply because they are against top 6-8 sides, and instead focus on getting points in the remaining 26-32 games against ''weaker'' opposition![/quote]But I think it''s fair to say all sides in the bottom half do this. Maybe they use different tactics against top teams (i.e. usually sit 10 men behind the ball and try and nick something on the break), but I don''t think there is a side in the PL that plays the same way every game no matter who''s on the other side of the pitch.If it keeps us up and evolves us as a team, I''m not sure how anyone could argue with the approach. So the question will be, if we stay up, will be have evolved or improved?My opinion is that, if my theory is in anyway correct, when will we be scoring more goals? As good as the stats presented on this thread are, another quite telling stat is that we have only scored more than one goal in 3 games this season. My opinion is that we have way more issues at the other end of the pitch, and it''s taking Hughton too long to sort that out.But that''s just my theory. It wouldn''t be the first time if it proved wrong.

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"]My opinion is that we have way more issues at the other end of the pitch, and it''s taking Hughton too long to sort that out.[/quote]Damn, really didn''t want this to evolve into another Hughton discussion but it seems almost inevitable at times.I''d argue that we have just as many issues defensively as we''ve always done (despite signing ''better'' defenders), but now we''ve added the lack of goalscoring and midfield creativity to that mix as well!Quite how we can go out and improve the defence with better players, sign two very good strikers with excellent scoring records, along with a highly talented international midfielder and promising England starlet on the wing - and STILL fail to score goals...it''s beyond me tbh.Whilst I certainly don''t want a return to the Championship or League One, I long for at least the attacking football we saw under Lambert, even if the excellent passing football we had under Stringer/Walker isn''t going to return, anything bar this dour, drab, dross that''s being dished up week after week after week.

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I disagree on the defense. I think when they choose to play that brand of football we all loathed last year, I think our defense is sound. The stats on this thread appear to back that up.I agree that we have issues at the pointy end of the pitch, and can''t for the life of me work out why this hasn''t been sorted out quicker."Game of opinions" ''n all that....

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But it''s a false argument TGMT if the tradeoff for the better defence is being completely toothless in front of goal!I think we all agreed that the defence needed work because we were conceeding too many, and indeed signings like Bassong, Turner and Garrido helped strengthen that area, but what''s happened at the other end of the pitch is verging on criminal.The reason that this hasn''t been sorted out is because there''s simply too much focus on the defensive side of the game, and whilst this may work relatively well against the weaker sides, it''s almost pointless against the top teams who have more than enough ability to carve through our side, even if we stick 10 men behind the ball.There needs to be a balance, Lambert was too attacking, Hughton is too defensive, and what we need is a guy in between who can get that creativity and attack flowing, but without turning it into a sieve at the back in the process - not an easy job. That aside, I''d rather be too attacking and lose an exciting game 4-3, then I would be bored to death and lose 1-0, the goal difference is the same, but the entertainment certainly isn''t...

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Don''t you worry about old grumpy bollox Ray. I''ve been keeping an eye on this for weeks. While it''s true that the only table that matters is the league table it amuses me to record how the bottom 12 (Southampton downwards) fare against eachother. Here''s how they stand. (The columns are W D L F A Pts Dif) : -

 

Southampton 7 4 2 21 9 25 12
Norwich 6 4 3 12 7 22 5
C. Palace 6 1 6 11 14 19 -3
Fulham 6 1 6 16 23 19 -7
Swansea 4 5 3 16 10 17 6
Hull 4 5 3 13 9 17 4
Stoke 4 5 3 11 8 17 3
Aston Villa 4 5 3 11 10 17 1
West Ham 3 5 5 12 11 14 1
WBA 3 5 5 12 14 14 -2
Cardiff 3 5 5 7 15 14 -8
Sunderland 1 6 7 10 20 9

-10

[/quote]

 

This is selective but not just for Norwich''s games. It''s also selective for every other club outside the top 8. In reality it means nothing and is worthless apart from amusement purposes which I think was included in the above post. However it has happened rather than the stuff posters like Reggie make up that has only happened in their doom laden heads.

 

As for the last four games of the season. I will throw out a challenge. If we lose them all I will donate another £10 to the CSF. However if we don''t lose them all anyone who takes this challenge would have to send me a tenner for Rays Funds and take part next season.

 

 

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Sox 1,

"Why can''t Ray simply isolate the stats to suit his case......practically everybody else on here does!!!"

Tbh Sox, I wasn''t really making a case for anything, I didn''t have an agenda, I just thought it was interesting and showed up our strengths and weaknesses, some have taken it on from there to make it something different. So be it

Thanks for your support though.

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the only stat that matters is the points total after 38 games...

it doesnt matter on nunmber of clean sheets, how many corners you get, or even possession (which people obsess over) if you get enough points you stay up.

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]the only stat that matters is the points total after 38 games...[/quote]That''s right Jas, but unless you intend to just look at the stats each week (or even simply once at the end of the season), then the quality of play on the pitch is what matters to most fans, and at the minute, it''s f**king terrible...

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

the only stat that matters is the points total after 38 games...

it doesnt matter on nunmber of clean sheets, how many corners you get, or even possession (which people obsess over) if you get enough points you stay up.

[/quote]Absolutely correct, Jas. I agree entirely. In the end the only thing that matters is our points total (in relation to other teams) on the evening of Sun May 18th. That''s what interests me most.Which of course is why it''s rather iroinc( not to mention ridiculous and hypocritical) when the members of the uber positive no-change group accuse some of the rest of us of ''making things up''. Because, if you think about it , the one figure that you can''t invent or make up is that precise one.Indy has a fair point about quality of play. It''s an old debate, but I''d guess that , in our current circumstances most fans would take us scrapping out a 1-0 win tonight rather than being on the wrong end of a 4-5 thriller. If in doubt ask a few Peterborough United fans !!

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]the only stat that matters is the points total after 38 games...[/quote]
That''s right Jas, but unless you intend to just look at the stats each week (or even simply once at the end of the season), then the quality of play on the pitch is what matters to most fans, and at the minute, it''s f**king terrible...
[/quote]

 

and if it keeps us up and in mid table is anyone going to give a shiny sh*t?

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]and if it keeps us up and in mid table is anyone going to give a shiny sh*t? [/quote]Stoke fans did, so did Charlton fans and to a lesser extent Bolton fans amongst others...There''s only so long that fans will put up with watching utter dross in exchange for avoiding relegation each season, and at the end of the day people pay to watch for two main reasons:1) To support their club2) To be entertainedTake away 50% of that equation and it suddenly seems like a lot of cash to pay each week/fortnight in exchange for standing in a cold stadium, watching bad football just so you can ''support'' your club whilst they get played off the park by the likes of Fulham...

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