Hughton is the reoccurring theme.

[Juggy 0]

Can''t score goals, can''t create chances, strikers isolated, playing for a draw, sitting back, has improved the defence but just needs to sort the attack.

All of those complaints were used in the second half of last season and yet many were saying that Hughton needs time to bring in attacking players having built the defence, and that we would see "Hughton football" now that we had a "Hughton squad" (and those are McNally''s words).

I even bought into that, the prospect that new players would see a change in the way that we played football. Everybody got excited about the prospect of Redmond, RVW and Hooper I think.

Now we approach the second half of this season, a year on, and the players have changed but the problem with creating chances and scoring goals has not.

So what is the excuse this time? That Hughton has built his defence and attack but hasn''t quite finished building the midfield?

The convenient and believable excuses from last season are no longer valid. We aren''t waiting for Hughton to sign the players that he needs to play great Hughton style football, he has signed 17 players and this IS Hughton style football.

Now we keep getting told that a scoreless draw at home against a team who didn''t qualify for Europe last season (despite half the league seemingly getting a place) is a "good result" and that we are in a good position in the league, and that Hughton has done an excellent job spending tens of millions of quid on not improving us one iota.

I''d take 12th if it meant feeling like we had the chance to steal an occasional win against the top teams, and the potential to go on a meaningful cup run and even dare to dream of a day out at Wembley, if I believed that we could score goals and attract talented creative players at the club.

We can''t even keep the creative players that we already have at the club.

So what has changed exactly? What has Hughton built in 18 months, and how does he propose to take us forward? He doesn''t propose to take us forward, because he has no belief and no ambition, and as long as the board continue to employ him they have no ambition either.

Still that would suit many fans, the people who think we are a "nailed on" bottom six club and should be delighted with a 0-0 draw at home to Newcastle and 5 goals in 10 games.

[Shaun Tilly Lace 0]

He''s created an insanely boring style of football that even your cat wouldn''t like to watch. I''d prefer to watch paint drying - it''s less frustrating!

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

Call me a happy clapper if you like. Call me what ever you want but I think its not all CH''s fault.

I personally think its the players not performing. He deployed the same tactics for when Hooper went on his goal streak. The only difference then was the players were performing. Like Fer''s through-ball for Hooper against WBA.

I have heard fans say that he is not motivating them the right way before the game. IMO that is tosh. If he could not motivate them before the game then why can he at half time.

Certain players like Bassong, Fer, Snodgrass, Martin all need to stand up and be counted. Certainly RVW and Hooper need too,

These are players with experience that should be able to pick themselves up. They are the so called leaders in our team

[Bill 1,788]

odd that so many players are ''not performing''what key factor would you suggest here ?

[PurpleCanary 6,381]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Can''t score goals, can''t create chances, strikers isolated, playing for a draw, sitting back, has improved the defence but just needs to sort the attack.

All of those complaints were used in the second half of last season and yet many were saying that Hughton needs time to bring in attacking players having built the defence, and that we would see "Hughton football" now that we had a "Hughton squad" (and those are McNally''s words).

I even bought into that, the prospect that new players would see a change in the way that we played football. Everybody got excited about the prospect of Redmond, RVW and Hooper I think.

Now we approach the second half of this season, a year on, and the players have changed but the problem with creating chances and scoring goals has not.

So what is the excuse this time? That Hughton has built his defence and attack but hasn''t quite finished building the midfield?

The convenient and believable excuses from last season are no longer valid. We aren''t waiting for Hughton to sign the players that he needs to play great Hughton style football, he has signed 17 players and this IS Hughton style football.

Now we keep getting told that a scoreless draw at home against a team who didn''t qualify for Europe last season (despite half the league seemingly getting a place) is a "good result" and that we are in a good position in the league, and that Hughton has done an excellent job spending tens of millions of quid on not improving us one iota.

I''d take 12th if it meant feeling like we had the chance to steal an occasional win against the top teams, and the potential to go on a meaningful cup run and even dare to dream of a day out at Wembley, if I believed that we could score goals and attract talented creative players at the club.

We can''t even keep the creative players that we already have at the club.

So what has changed exactly? What has Hughton built in 18 months, and how does he propose to take us forward? He doesn''t propose to take us forward, because he has no belief and no ambition, and as long as the board continue to employ him they have no ambition either.

Still that would suit many fans, the people who think we are a "nailed on" bottom six club and should be delighted with a 0-0 draw at home to Newcastle and 5 goals in 10 games.[/quote]

Well, as an Anti-Hughton (not strictly an Outer since there has not been an obvious moment at which he should have been sacked) I would make one point about that. Which is double-edged. It being that he has signed pretty much everybody he wanted (in terms of players and/or positions) apart from the one kind of player that posters who know about tactics than I do think might make his favoured system work. A No.10-style link between midfield and the striker.The quest for Quagliarella always looked doomed. Should we have realised that earlier on, and gone for someone else? Was there anyone else worth pursuing? Given that we failed to get anyone, should we have kept playing the system without the key player?

[Tetteys Jig 851]

We went for Toivonen and then got Elmander. He was going to be that guy. Howson had taken the link up role on pretty well before getting injured. He has been a colossal loss to our line up.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

Well for some posters Hughton certainly is the recurring theme and it gets unbelivably dull TBH. 

 

IMO the Board will not sack him unless we drop down into the relegation zone or uncomfortably close to it.  I know there will be plenty on here, if that happens, who will be saying "I told you so" "He should have been sacked last summer" etc etc.  Well, whatever, I think people just need to deal with the fact that unless that happens, he''s here for the rest of the season, so there''s not much point going on and on and on about it.

 

I think the widespread view before the game was that a point at home to Newcastle would not be a bad result.  I can''t remember anyone on here saying we are a "nailed on" bottom six club who should be delighted by it and by 5 goals in 10. 

 

But there are plenty of us like me who think that changing manager mid-season, when we are in 12th spot and grinding out results towards safety, would be a mistake.  It''s called Charlton syndrome - change a manager who is not producing good enough football (despite getting a mid table position in the Prem), and then find you end up relegated and watching dross in the league below.

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]We went for Toivonen and then got Elmander. He was going to be that guy. Howson had taken the link up role on pretty well before getting injured. He has been a colossal loss to our line up.[/quote]

This is something that has been overlooked by many and something I agree with strongly.

Same goes for Tettey. That midfield three of Tettey, Howson and Fer looked very good before they both got injured. It seem to give Fer and Howson a lot of freedom and we seemed to create more when it was those three in the middle,

[Juggy 0]

Well actually Purple I''m not calling for his dismissal right now either, I think the boat sailed in mid-December. The end of the season is the time to do it now unless our results take a drastic turn for the worse.

But what makes you so confident that he''d have signed the right number 10? And that the number 10 would have performed? Holt managed 8 goals with Hoolahan as his foil, Wes remains at the club and yet he is choosing not to use him.

Van Wolfswinkel has scored 1 goal, Hooper doesn''t look like he will massively outscore Holt (8 to 10 probably a realistic prediction), and Quagliarella was never guaranteed to work out.

If our lack of goals is solely down to the lack of a number 10 then that would suggest that we would be one dimensional with a number ten and one dimensional without one. We didn''t get one anyway, and yet Hoolahan still loses his place. I''m not terrible convinced that Hughton even wants a ''number ten'', has he ever said so? Lambert said that he wants a number ten for Villa, and is trying to sign Hoolahan. We already have one, he doesn''t get played.

And if the club are backing Hughton then why hasn''t he gone out and signed one in this window? If that component is so essential to what Hughton wishes to achieve then it would surely be a priority and we''d have had one in the bag by now (or even had one in the bag BEFORE the window opened!).

That is the same old excuse again isn''t it, we just need that, we just need this. Well perhaps we need a manager who can get the best out of what he has and should stop making excuses for the one we have who clearly can''t get a group of players to perform at their best.

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

[quote user="City1st"]odd that so many players are ''not performing''what key factor would you suggest here ?

[/quote]

I''d love to know what you are suggesting CH is saying to these players.

 

Do you think he is saying to them to slow everything down.....pass to their players....make ridiculous mistakes....when you get the chance to cross it, kick it out for a goal kick.....when you see a through ball, turn around and pass it backwards or sideways???

 

[Salopian 1]

Boring football I can accept for a while, if it produces results. The trouble at the moment is that it is not.

We have relied for many of our recent points - WBA, Newcastle, for example on teams unable to score from the many chances they create against us, or from errors by individual opponents - Hull, West Ham, for example. Which is why we struggle against the top teams who score so many against us. They can take their chances.

It is difficult to remember points gained because we completely outplayed opponents - Stoke perhaps. Last season we did this a few times, but not this. It is difficult to recall many flowing passing movements, which is why we are boring.

We have invested in more able players over the past 12 months, but the performance has not improved. Some people may lay this at Hughton''s feet, but there must be more. Snodgrass was booed on Tuesday, rightly or wrongly. He is our main attacking outlet, and last season scored goals and created them. Little wonder that Hughton shows a strong loyalty to him. This season Snoddy has been disappointing, - shadow of what he was. I wish I knew the explanation. I can only offer the thought that time at CR has destroyed his confidence or commitment.

[PurpleCanary 6,381]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]We went for Toivonen and then got Elmander. He was going to be that guy. Howson had taken the link up role on pretty well before getting injured. He has been a colossal loss to our line up.[/quote]Jimmy, Toivonen isn''t really that kind of skilful link player, and neither is Elmander. If Hughton thought either was suitable then he was mistaken. I suspect he didn''t and more saw them as part replacements for Holt.But I agree that of those in the squad Howson is the best suited to that link role, and has been a loss.

[Juggy 0]

"But there are plenty of us like me who think that changing manager mid-season, when we are in 12th spot and grinding out results towards safety, would be a mistake. It''s called Charlton syndrome - change a manager who is not producing good enough football (despite getting a mid table position in the Prem), and then find you end up relegated and watching dross in the league below"

Well I don''t think now is the time to sack him either, but I don''t think the changing a manager in mid-season due to style of football is called "Charlton syndrome" seeing as they parted with Curbishley at the end of the season. I think you most definitely made that up yourself.

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

I suggested at the start of the season that he already has a number 10 in Johnny Howson,

 

Just a shame that he is injured

[PurpleCanary 6,381]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Well actually Purple I''m not calling for his dismissal right now either, I think the boat sailed in mid-December. The end of the season is the time to do it now unless our results take a drastic turn for the worse.

But what makes you so confident that he''d have signed the right number 10? And that the number 10 would have performed? Holt managed 8 goals with Hoolahan as his foil, Wes remains at the club and yet he is choosing not to use him.

Van Wolfswinkel has scored 1 goal, Hooper doesn''t look like he will massively outscore Holt (8 to 10 probably a realistic prediction), and Quagliarella was never guaranteed to work out.

If our lack of goals is solely down to the lack of a number 10 then that would suggest that we would be one dimensional with a number ten and one dimensional without one. We didn''t get one anyway, and yet Hoolahan still loses his place. I''m not terrible convinced that Hughton even wants a ''number ten'', has he ever said so? Lambert said that he wants a number ten for Villa, and is trying to sign Hoolahan. We already have one, he doesn''t get played.

And if the club are backing Hughton then why hasn''t he gone out and signed one in this window? If that component is so essential to what Hughton wishes to achieve then it would surely be a priority and we''d have had one in the bag by now (or even had one in the bag BEFORE the window opened!).

That is the same old excuse again isn''t it, we just need that, we just need this. Well perhaps we need a manager who can get the best out of what he has and should stop making excuses for the one we have who clearly can''t get a group of players to perform at their best.[/quote]Er, I''m not. On either count. I didn''t say either of those things. Only that the fruitless quest for Quagliarella suggests Hughton did want that kind of player to make his preferred system work.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]We went for Toivonen and then got Elmander. He was going to be that guy. Howson had taken the link up role on pretty well before getting injured. He has been a colossal loss to our line up.[/quote]

This is something that has been overlooked by many and something I agree with strongly.

Same goes for Tettey. That midfield three of Tettey, Howson and Fer looked very good before they both got injured. It seem to give Fer and Howson a lot of freedom and we seemed to create more when it was those three in the middle,

[/quote]I quite see where Jimmy and BB are coming from with this. Of course teams miss injured players. But, I''m sorry, we are playing with the big boys now. Every team gets its fair share of injuries, and we''ve been no exception. Is not saying this just another convenient excuse ? We had some pretty dire performances/results long before Howson etc got crocked.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

[quote user="City1st"]odd that so many players are ''not performing''what key factor would you suggest here ?

[/quote]

I''d love to know what you are suggesting CH is saying to these players.

 

Do you think he is saying to them to slow everything down.....pass to their players....make ridiculous mistakes....when you get the chance to cross it, kick it out for a goal kick.....when you see a through ball, turn around and pass it backwards or sideways???

 

[/quote]nopehe has them playing an absurd kind of zonal play which leads to this sort of stuffno too difficult to spotwhat does appear difficult is for you to recognise the responsibilities of a manager and his coaching staff

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

[quote user="Le Juge"]"But there are plenty of us like me who think that changing manager mid-season, when we are in 12th spot and grinding out results towards safety, would be a mistake. It''s called Charlton syndrome - change a manager who is not producing good enough football (despite getting a mid table position in the Prem), and then find you end up relegated and watching dross in the league below" Well I don''t think now is the time to sack him either, but I don''t think the changing a manager in mid-season due to style of football is called "Charlton syndrome" seeing as they parted with Curbishley at the end of the season. I think you most definitely made that up yourself.[/quote]

 

err... and would you care to actually discuss the risks of sacking a manager for not producing good enough football despite being mid-table in the Prem...  or talk about whether it should be called something different if it''s done in the middle of the season...

 

I''d be interested to know how many other people agree with LJ that Hughton should not be sacked now despite feeling he''s responsible for all the ills of the world ?

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]We went for Toivonen and then got Elmander. He was going to be that guy. Howson had taken the link up role on pretty well before getting injured. He has been a colossal loss to our line up.[/quote]

This is something that has been overlooked by many and something I agree with strongly.

Same goes for Tettey. That midfield three of Tettey, Howson and Fer looked very good before they both got injured. It seem to give Fer and Howson a lot of freedom and we seemed to create more when it was those three in the middle,

[/quote]I quite see where Jimmy and BB are coming from with this. Of course teams miss injured players. But, I''m sorry, we are playing with the big boys now. Every team gets its fair share of injuries, and we''ve been no exception. Is not saying this just another convenient excuse ? We had some pretty dire performances/results long before Howson etc got crocked.[/quote]

The only period where we had a full squad was at the start of the season when we played really well against Southampton, Stoke, Chelsea, Arsenal, Cardiff etc.

Since then we have been disrupted big time with injuries. Tettey, RVW, Howson, Pilks, Snodgrass have all been out for a while. Not many teams have had so many first teamers out at one time really 

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

[quote user="City1st"]odd that so many players are ''not performing''what key factor would you suggest here ?

[/quote]

I''d love to know what you are suggesting CH is saying to these players.

 

Do you think he is saying to them to slow everything down.....pass to their players....make ridiculous mistakes....when you get the chance to cross it, kick it out for a goal kick.....when you see a through ball, turn around and pass it backwards or sideways???

 

[/quote]nopehe has them playing an absurd kind of zonal play which leads to this sort of stuffno too difficult to spotwhat does appear difficult is for you to recognise the responsibilities of a manager and his coaching staff

[/quote]

 

I''m not saying CH doesn''t need to stand up and be counted. See my first post on this where I say he is not fully to blame.

 

We have had a good few players come out and say they are behind CH and that the players should also take blame.

 

Also, see my posts about certain key players being injured. This is a massive factor to why we are not performing as well as the start of the season.

 

Either way around we are joint 10th in the league with a bit of breathing space

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

The only period where we had a full squad was at the start of the season when we played really well against Southampton, Stoke, Chelsea, Arsenal, Cardiff etc.

Since then we have been disrupted big time with injuries. Tettey, RVW, Howson, Pilks, Snodgrass have all been out for a while. Not many teams have had so many first teamers out at one time really 

[/quote]Well, clearly it''s impossible to calculate how much impact the absence of any given player is to any given team, Butterbean, but my feeling is that other teams have had the same sort of injuries as us. And, it''s not fair to say that all the people you mention were all out at the same time.When Michu was injured, did that affect Swansea.? Charlie Adam was out for Stoke for a while.And so on.As I said, it''s a reasonable thing to point to in individual games, but I maintain it can all too easily be used as a convenient excuse, when there are much bigger factors in play. And, in any case, if you are serious about being in the Premier League, it''s incumbent that you have a squad deep enough to overcome injuries.

[BigFish 2,282]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

[/quote]When Michu was injured, did that affect Swansea.? Charlie Adam was out for Stoke for a while.And so on.A[/quote]

Well yes, actually.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="BigFish"]

 Well yes, actually.[/quote]Precisely the point I''m making, BF. Injuries to players are clearly going to have a certain effect, but to suggest that it''s only Norwich who''ve suffered them, or suffered them most, is a bit misleading

[ncfcstar 342]

You''re a reoccuring as well Le Juge, like a bloody broken record.

[Butterbean_Canary 0]

I''m pretty sure there was a point where all that I mentioned were injured at the same time

[Juggy 0]

"I''d be interested to know how many other people agree with LJ that Hughton should not be sacked now despite feeling he''s responsible for all the ills of the world ?"

Quite a few have expressed the opinion that we have left it too late and that we should part ways at the end of the season.

[Juggy 0]

"You''re a reoccuring as well Le Juge"

And you are semi-literate.

[ncfcstar 342]

[quote user="Le Juge"]"You''re a reoccuring as well Le Juge"

And you are semi-literate.[/quote]Oh, I can assure you I am not.  I was going to add some sort of insult in there but forgot to take the ''a'' out; but if you''d like me to complete the sentence I''m more than happy to oblige.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="Butterbean_Canary"]

[quote user="City1st"]odd that so many players are ''not performing''what key factor would you suggest here ?

[/quote]

I''d love to know what you are suggesting CH is saying to these players.

 

Do you think he is saying to them to slow everything down.....pass to their players....make ridiculous mistakes....when you get the chance to cross it, kick it out for a goal kick.....when you see a through ball, turn around and pass it backwards or sideways???

 

[/quote]nopehe has them playing an absurd kind of zonal play which leads to this sort of stuffno too difficult to spotwhat does appear difficult is for you to recognise the responsibilities of a manager and his coaching staff

[/quote]

Except that "the zonal stuff" is working.

P

There are ten teams all in the relegation fight and we are at the top of that group and the furthest away points-wise from the relegation zone. We are grinding out points. On Tuesday we widened the gap between us and three other teams around us that failed to win any points.

It isn''t pretty but it is getting the job done.

[Jim Smith 2,610]

I don''t think its too late because i don;t share the view that there is a great deal wrong with our squad and think a new (vaguely competent) man would get them going.

However i think the board will see it as too late and thus Hughton is here for the rest of the season now. Lets hope they have not made a huge mistake.