Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
bradley11

RvW Performance, Position and Pessimists...

Recommended Posts

This post will probably result in me getting a fair amount of stick, but so be it.

There seems to be a lot of people who clearly didn''t think RvW performed last night. Granted, I thought Hooper looked more dangerous and perhaps Elmander linked with Hooper better (Mind you, I''ve always thought Elmander compliments Hooper very well and this almost showed when Elmander knocked the ball down for Hooper to drill against the bar).

That said, I think we saw a different performance from RvW to one both we''re and himself is used to. Doing some research into the lad, he is a player that thrives on quick, flowing attacks. Yet, yesterday - he was back defending around his own box (as another poster stated, he nearly gave away a penalty trying to win the ball back) and also put in a pretty hefty amount of work covering both Johnson and Fer who both had major off days.

As a big fan of RvW for his creativeness and talent which he undoubtably does have (You''re very rarely selected for the Dutch national side if you are pony) I followed his action quite a bit yesterday and several times he worked back towards his own goal and made small interceptions or forced a misplaced pass, however 90% of the time he did this, one of his team mates would quickly give the ball away and his work quickly goes unnoticed.

I also think we saw a glimpse of RvW''s striking instinct in the second half when Hooper flicked the ball passed Debuchy and RvW turned at the edge of the box and hit a shot which was well blocked by Williamson.

I''m starting to get the impression that perhaps Hughton and the club could be trying to reinvent RvW into a player who can drop deep and play in that role... possibly Wes Hoolahans replacement next season?

To summarise: Yes, RvW is a long way from the finished article in our side and I would''ve expected more from him by now. However, I think in the role he is clearly playing, he is going through a learning process and is actually looking stronger at doing so week by week.

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am like you, I think he is a good player but I think unfortunately he is in the wrong team for his first year in the prem. We just don''t have the type of players that would get the best out of him, someone like Southampton, Swansea or Arsenal would be more suited to his style of play. Plus he could have done with being in a team that weren''t so reliant on the strikers which would give him more time to get use to the prem and bulk up because atm he is to lightweight for it, and yes I think Hughton is trying to change his style of play i.e. dropping deep etc as he did with all of our other strikers.... Having said that is does not help that our midfield is useless atm, no pace down the wings etc and no creativity in the centre, Snoddy always cuts back onto his left foot which means RVW or any other striker has already made their runs and it gives the opposition time to sort themselves out.
In short, stop people need to stop some of the RVW bashing because there are also many other players in the team who are not performing as well, why are there not more Snoddy, Bassong, Martin, Johnson, Fer post etc because they have been equally as poor... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Macey"]


In short, stop people need to stop some of the RVW bashing because there are also many other players in the team who are not performing as well, why are there not more Snoddy, Bassong, Martin, Johnson, Fer post etc because they have been equally as poor... 

[/quote]

 

because we didnt pay 8.5 million quid for them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="Macey"]

In short, stop people need to stop some of the RVW bashing because there are also many other players in the team who are not performing as well, why are there not more Snoddy, Bassong, Martin, Johnson, Fer post etc because they have been equally as poor... 

[/quote]

 

because we didnt pay 8.5 million quid for them

[/quote]
Because 8.5mil means he should be able to do everything on his own? Its a team game for F sake.... The managers tactics and subs also need looking at imo as they are shocking too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Price hasn''t got anything to do with it.

Mainly because price is determined by a number of factors of which ability is one. Things like form, age, potential, achievements - and then things like wage, value to the selling club, value to the buying club, how long is left on their contract, whether the club needs to sell or not, agents etc.

Hooper cost £5million because he wanted to leave and was into the last year of his contract.

Snodgrass and Howson were similar.

Price is no indication though. Look at Redmond - even if we end up paying the full price with all of the add ons it will still be incredibly good value for money.

RVW is a good player. He is lacking in form and confidence right now.

And the thing is with strikers, they tend to reflect the team in the sense that if a team is playing well the strikers will get more chances, if the rest of the team are poor they''ll get less chances.

Some strikers play in such a way, like Hooper, where their hounding of the defenders at the right moment will get them chances.

I would say that RVW wants the team to do well, he works hard to get involved in play. The problem with this is that it means he is often wide or deep which means Hooper is often in better positions to take on a shot.

It''s great to moan and criticise but I see very, very, very few people ever coming up with an alternative.

The instant response is Hughton out - but who for?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Macey"]
Because 8.5mil means he should be able to do everything on his own? Its a team game for F sake.... The managers tactics and subs also need looking at imo as they are shocking too.
[/quote]A very succinct appraisal of this whole conundrum, if I may say so, Macey.What you allude to in your second sentence above has been raised before in a number of guises.  Several times, the Hughton lovers on here have been asked to explain the fact that the number of players who performed well, and in the appropriate cases, scored goals, for previous teams/managers suddenly seem to go off the boil when confronted with Hughton''s tactical genius.As yet, significantly, we are still waiting from a cohesive explanation from the people concerned.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I feel sorry for RVW, we aren''t playing to his strengths and asking him to play deep when he is a guy who thrives off through balls is never going to help his cause.

He looks lacking in confidence, we can keep persisting in playing him but at what point does justifying his price tag (which even if its not the case in his present form it feels that way) become less of an issue than playing someone better suited at this time?

I''m not bashing him, I think he''s a good player and in the right team and full of confidence would be a great asset. But he is working very hard and frustratingly has little to show for it and it doesn''t seem to be helping his confidence.

It''s personal opinion but at the moment i''d be playing Wes and Hooper up front, they look very good the few times they have played together and when none of your other strikers are playing and we cant maintain possession its hardly a negative move. Unfortunately I think that option is fast disappearing and CH looks reluctant to use it.

(you can take that as CH bashing if you like but from the amount Wes has been available and not used its a fact for rightly or wrongly that he hasn''t been used, and its only my opinion)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I focused on RvWs game last night and can summarise it in one paragraph:

He''s ineffective and lightweight, offering no attacking threat whatsoever. He does work hard and move in deeper positions, but I thought he was a forward bought to score goals?

When Elmander replaced him we looked far more dangerous. He links up with our best striker Hooper very well and I''d prefer to see them start.

We need to shift RvW quickly in the summer and replace him with an effective forward who can hit the ground running.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Jonzey"]I focused on RvWs game last night and can summarise it in one paragraph:

He''s ineffective and lightweight, offering no attacking threat whatsoever. He does work hard and move in deeper positions, but I thought he was a forward bought to score goals?

When Elmander replaced him we looked far more dangerous. He links up with our best striker Hooper very well and I''d prefer to see them start.

We need to shift RvW quickly in the summer and replace him with an effective forward who can hit the ground running.[/quote]It may well come to that, Jonzey. But I refer you to the point I made a few posts back...ie why has he suddenly tranformed from on of Europe''s hottest strikers to what you describe above ?Frankly speaking,there are 3 other Norwich City employees who need to be ''shifted in the summer'', well ahead of RvW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="chicken"]Price hasn''t got anything to do with it. Mainly because price is determined by a number of factors of which ability is one. Things like form, age, potential, achievements - and then things like wage, value to the selling club, value to the buying club, how long is left on their contract, whether the club needs to sell or not, agents etc. Hooper cost £5million because he wanted to leave and was into the last year of his contract. Snodgrass and Howson were similar. Price is no indication though. Look at Redmond - even if we end up paying the full price with all of the add ons it will still be incredibly good value for money. RVW is a good player. He is lacking in form and confidence right now. And the thing is with strikers, they tend to reflect the team in the sense that if a team is playing well the strikers will get more chances, if the rest of the team are poor they''ll get less chances. Some strikers play in such a way, like Hooper, where their hounding of the defenders at the right moment will get them chances. I would say that RVW wants the team to do well, he works hard to get involved in play. The problem with this is that it means he is often wide or deep which means Hooper is often in better positions to take on a shot. It''s great to moan and criticise but I see very, very, very few people ever coming up with an alternative. The instant response is Hughton out - but who for?[/quote]

 

Excellent post as usual Chicken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The fact that the club has paid so much money for him probably means that they will persevere with him longer than they would have otherwise done so. If he had cost £50,000 then I think he''d be going out on-loan to a League 1 club.The problems are:A) The team are not playing to his strengths.B) He is often playing in the wrong position.C) He hasn''t played very well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Reggie, I''m not sure Hoots and his team are entirely at fault as Hooper looks pretty good.

Sometimes a player fits a club like Holt and plays above a level they maybe couldn''t elsewhere. And vice versa for other players such as RVW it seems.

I reckon if you started him for a whole season at a club in La Liga he''d bang twenty in at least. Here though it seems he just doesn''t fit either the club, or more likely the league. Either way we can''t afford to hang on ''just in case''. The league is too competitive to carry a player every game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don''t really think we''re playing well enough to play RWV. Which may not initially make sense - but my point is that we probably need another physical presence up alongside Hooper such as Elmander to hold the ball up and bring others into play.

Our attacking is slow, predictable, mundane and boring. we don''t look for quick through balls or anything of the sort so RVW''s apparent preferred playing style of being on the shoulder of the last defender is not going to work.

When we''re playing well, passing well, retaining posession and attacking with fluidity and pace - that''s when we can fairly judge a player of his style...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Jonzey"]Reggie, I''m not sure Hoots and his team are entirely at fault as Hooper looks pretty good.

Sometimes a player fits a club like Holt and plays above a level they maybe couldn''t elsewhere. And vice versa for other players such as RVW it seems.

I reckon if you started him for a whole season at a club in La Liga he''d bang twenty in at least. Here though it seems he just doesn''t fit either the club, or more likely the league. Either way we can''t afford to hang on ''just in case''. The league is too competitive to carry a player every game.[/quote]As I said, Jonzey, it may well come to that. And, clearly ALL of the blame cannot be laid at Hughton''s door. There are no absolutes in life !But, as a far as the striker/RvW situation goes, basically it seems to me that there are 3 possible options;1,  RvW is not good enough for the EPL......so why did CH sign him?2,  RvW is good enough but would be better employed in a different system......so either why was he signed or why are we not playing the system to his strengths ? 3,  RvW is technically a good player,....... but is just not being coached well enough.All 3 cases and Hughton and his staff have to shoulder a large part of the blame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soooo Reggie. You were apparently at the game last night so why can''t you give us your own opinion instead of these possible options?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"]I don''t really think we''re playing well enough to play RWV. Which may not initially make sense - but my point is that we probably need another physical presence up alongside Hooper such as Elmander to hold the ball up and bring others into play.

Our attacking is slow, predictable, mundane and boring. we don''t look for quick through balls or anything of the sort so RVW''s apparent preferred playing style of being on the shoulder of the last defender is not going to work.

When we''re playing well, passing well, retaining posession and attacking with fluidity and pace - that''s when we can fairly judge a player of his style...[/quote]
[Y]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Sussexyellow"][quote user="hogesar"]I don''t really think we''re playing well enough to play RWV. Which may not initially make sense - but my point is that we probably need another physical presence up alongside Hooper such as Elmander to hold the ball up and bring others into play.

Our attacking is slow, predictable, mundane and boring. we don''t look for quick through balls or anything of the sort so RVW''s apparent preferred playing style of being on the shoulder of the last defender is not going to work.

When we''re playing well, passing well, retaining posession and attacking with fluidity and pace - that''s when we can fairly judge a player of his style...[/quote]
[Y]
[/quote]
Yes [Y] dito

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When your Centre Forward spends more time around his own penalty area than the opposition''s there is clearly something seriously wrong!

 

Agreed RvW did not have his best night, however the times when he did lose the ball the passes to him were appalling!

 

He put a shift in without much reward and I was sitting right in line with his shot that was blocked and I can tell you that Krul would have been seriously struggling to get to it!

If CH is trying to change the type of player he is, why?

 

Tries to turn Howson into a defensive midfielder, plays wingers on the wrong wing and now trying to turn a predatory, skilful striker into a midfielder, hold up link player?

 

If this is the case then it is madness. I just don''t see where this is all going.  What is his plan?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glad that I''m not the only one who thinks RvW still has something about him.

One thing that has been going through my mind is Hughton''s ability to get the best out of him or potential lack of.

Firstly, the tactics and the position he''s being deployed in are clearly not doing that, but at a more psychological level, what is Hughton doing to try and get him playing at his best?

For example, Lambert brought Lappin back into the side from nowhere a few seasons ago and he looked really fired up and ready for the challenge when really it would''ve been easy for Lappin to cost and hide behind the "He''s not played many games" story. Yet similarly last season Hughton did the same and brought Fox back in from the cold against Luton and he seriously under performed against much weaker opposition and was very uninspiring - granted this could''ve been a one off, we''ll never know.

I really don''t have faith that Hughton has what it takes to draw the best out of our players when they''re going through a bad run and as we all can agree, football can be a very unforgiving place when you''re not firing at your best.

Anyway, based on this assumption, I think RvW could be in for a very long and unhappy time at NCFC as I can''t see our current back room having what it takes to get his confidence back and kick start his season. Clearly having no real reserve team isn''t ideal in RvW''s situation, however, I believe that the problem lies a lot deeper than giving him game time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"As a big fan of RvW for his creativeness and talent which he undoubtably

does have (You''re very rarely selected for the Dutch national side if

you are pony) I followed his action quite a bit yesterday and several

times he worked back towards his own goal and made small interceptions

or forced a misplaced pass, however 90% of the time he did this, one of

his team mates would quickly give the ball away and his work quickly

goes unnoticed."

AgreeHe certainly looks class, but as it is he is being wasted in a team where the manager wants to turn a show pony into a pit pony. I think he is here for the long term - but shows one of the possible dangers when the board/scouts are buying the players not the manager. More so when we have a manager not suited to the players being brought in.I suspect that while we expect Hughton to see out his season there will be rumblings from various agents and players about the devastating effect Hughton is having. As said above "You''re very rarely selected for the Dutch national side if

you are pony"
likewise you don''t score 19 goals (Becchio) in half a season at a middling Championship team then suddenly lose it, much as with Hooper and Fer.The disturbing thing is that for every decent player Hughton has been given he has metaphorically set about them with a mallet to shove them into his round holes of defeatist tactics. At some point this destruction will have to stop and then let''s hope that the club will have found a manager where these talents can flourish and they are still at the club.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RVW is definitely being asked to play where he is not comfortable. If one of our strikers has to be the one to drop off and carry out the link up play and working back it''s Hooper. I feel RVW will thrive on balls being played through to him when he''s on the last defenders shoulder. To many times RVW receives the ball 50 yards from goal with his back to it and a player up his ass for company and the way he''s been asked to play now, is not the way he scored all his goals for his previous clubs.

Hooper is more suited to dropping in behind linking with the midfield, tracking back or even dropping into midfield and making it a 5 man midfield. Let RVW run in behind and work the channels as that''s what he''s good at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
''''he is a player that thrives on quick, flowing attacks...''''

...and herein lies the problem. Our attacking play is unimaginative, predictable and stilted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RVW is a quality striker, without doubt. He''s been good at every other club he''s played at! The fact that our manager is happy to spend a club record fee to bring him in, then not bother to set up a team to support him, says more about our management than RVW. Some people need to wake up to this realisation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...