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Samwam27

If we are performing so badly....

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Yes, Reggie, in fairness to Jim I can see where he is currently coming from but I guess it depends on your definition of what deserves points in football.

Anyway, my concern is that the negativity is now so great at Carrow Road, what with the crowd slating our our players and booing after a draw against a decent team that we are already at a big disadvantage than compared to someone like Sunderland who are riding on the crest of a wave relatively speaking.

I think that unless we get some sort of positive break, be it a good performance against Cardiff or an excellent signing over the next couple of days, people are so pre-disposed to disliking the manager that our relegation will almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Carrow Road cannot be a positive place for our players right now, and that''s certainly not going to help results.

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[quote user="I.S."]A better style of football would bring more entertainment, but absolutely no proof of better results. You only have to compare Stoke and Blackpool/Wigan to see that''s patently not true.

I absolutely hate what the Premier League has done to our top division, but I can understand those who think the most important thing is to stay in the league at all costs at our current stage of development. The key is whether we are seeing progress in terms of quality and style of play.

If there''s none at the end of the season then the time will be right to make a change, but we have to accept that it''s probably too late for any manager to come in and turn around our style of play AND get results now. In which case, Hughton is doing okay and we need to get behind the team and manager for the remainder of the season.

Booing our own players/team after a 0-0 draw is going to be counter-productive at best, wouldn''t you agree?[/quote]

 

So I.S I have to disagree.  The proof is everywhere that better styles of football do generally bring better results more often than not.

 

You state blackpool as an example.  They got off to an absolute flyer and were getting excellent results, but their system needed refining and the purchase of better defenders would have seen them stay up.  There was no need for them to drastically change the way they were playing but just become a little more savvy.  This is where they failed and became naïve.  However they had the right idea.

 

Wigan did not actually play the same way all the time and were not done by attacking or being positive, but when they were slow, and more defensive.  (Players also did not perform).  However they did spend a decent time in the Prem for such a small club and Martinez has gone on to revolutionise the way Everton are playing, into a Team that aesthetically as well as competitively take on the big boys (despite the drubbing the other night!).

 

There is no guarantee the way we play now will get the results we need.  To criticise those that believe in a positive way as being negative is a little odd. Thus we are negative for wanting to be positive? Hmmm.

 

We are not advocating a Gung-Ho way of playing, just one that tries to win by scoring goals.

 

As for the booing, yes it may well be counter-productive, but to understand, how else do disaffected fans demonstrate their disapproval?  Or are they not allowed to speak and let the powers that be know that the product being shown is unacceptable?

 

Fans will get behind the team, but the team also needs to give the fans something to get behind surely?  

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[quote user="I.S."]

I think that unless we get some sort of positive break, be it a good performance against Cardiff or an excellent signing over the next couple of days, people are so pre-disposed to disliking the manager that our relegation will almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Carrow Road cannot be a positive place for our players right now, and that''s certainly not going to help results.[/quote]Well, IS, at the risk of playing devil''s advocate, and stirring up the usual hornet''s nest again, I suppose it could be argued that, as the source of this discontent you speak of  all eventually leads back to Mr C Hughton ? And, to take this one logical step further, if that is the case the one deft piece of surgery that could have been performed (and still can) would be the removal of the inherent problem.I believe, that if the foundations are right, professional players should be able to perform whatever the behind the scenes circumstances. So, I suppose the debate must surround whether the foundations are indeed right ?

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Snake,

You are saying that a more entertaining style of play will always bring better results, but there is simply no guarantee that this is the case. You cannot pick and choose parts of a team''s performance to suit your argument - the fact of the matter is that teams like Wigan, Blackpool were extremely exciting to watch but ultimately ended up relegated.

Everyone wants us to be playing better football - that is nothing to do with negativity, but people who seem to think that changing the manager will guarantee better football AND better results at this stage of the season are being unrealistic in my opinion. The fact that the manager hasn''t been sacked yet means that those people who do want a change at all costs are being excessively negative.

As you say, there is also no guarantee that the way we play will bring us the results we need, but we survived last season and are currently sitting in 12th with just over a third of the season to go. Sacking the manager before the season is out would be a massive risk.

Onto the subject of booing, people can do what they want. But why boo after a much improved second-half performance against Newcastle? Would people have booed if Snodgrass'' header had gone in, or Hooper''s volley? Do you reckon those who slated Snodgrass in the first half would have stood there arms crossed?

If you don''t like the product then vote with your wallet, but booing regardless of improvement is only going to undermine confidence and performances even more. I don''t want to hear people abusing our own team and players near me during a game - I think it''s childish and cowardly. But I guess my opinion doesn''t count?

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Reggie,

Everything ultimately leads back to the manager, I don''t think anyone can dispute that. It''s a little simplistic an argument, as certain managers do exceptionally well at some clubs but fail at others so there are clearly other circumstances at play.

But let''s agree Hughton is not the man for the job, my point is that I believe it''s too late in the season for a new man to come in and change our style of play, and the board certainly don''t seem to be considering making a change anyway. Surely we need to get behind the team as a whole to help ensure survival, and then make our feelings known during the close season?

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[quote user="I.S."]I don''t want to hear people abusing our own team and players near me during a game - I think it''s childish and cowardly. But I guess my opinion doesn''t count?[/quote]No, that opinion DOES count, IS, and I agree with it. There''s a time and a place for booing etc and during the match is not it (unless it''s patently obvious that the team are not trying their best) . There are plenty of other avenues available these days to voice your discontent. Such as here !But, I just do not recognise the phenomenon you describe. There was a bit of booing during the Snodgrass fiasco by the Snakepit, and a bit more at the end of the game, but for the main part, all I heard were positive noises, albeit muted ones during an ABYSMAL first half display. The same at the Hull game.  (did not see the ones over the Xmas /NY period, to be fair).

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Well, I heard a fair amount of abuse hurled at Snodgrass leading up to, and after the "incident" from the lower Barclay near me. Perhaps it was limited to the area I''m sitting in.

I heard a lot of booing at the end of the match, after what I thought was a much improved and even second half contest against a team who no-one could deny are playing very well at the moment. Bit silly IMO.

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[quote user="I.S."]Snake,

You are saying that a more entertaining style of play will always bring better results, but there is simply no guarantee that this is the case. You cannot pick and choose parts of a team''s performance to suit your argument - the fact of the matter is that teams like Wigan, Blackpool were extremely exciting to watch but ultimately ended up relegated.

Everyone wants us to be playing better football - that is nothing to do with negativity, but people who seem to think that changing the manager will guarantee better football AND better results at this stage of the season are being unrealistic in my opinion. The fact that the manager hasn''t been sacked yet means that those people who do want a change at all costs are being excessively negative.

As you say, there is also no guarantee that the way we play will bring us the results we need, but we survived last season and are currently sitting in 12th with just over a third of the season to go. Sacking the manager before the season is out would be a massive risk.

Onto the subject of booing, people can do what they want. But why boo after a much improved second-half performance against Newcastle? Would people have booed if Snodgrass'' header had gone in, or Hooper''s volley? Do you reckon those who slated Snodgrass in the first half would have stood there arms crossed?

If you don''t like the product then vote with your wallet, but booing regardless of improvement is only going to undermine confidence and performances even more. I don''t want to hear people abusing our own team and players near me during a game - I think it''s childish and cowardly. But I guess my opinion doesn''t count?[/quote]

 

Don''t start acting the victim I.S. "But I guess my opinion doesn''t count" This is what has been labelled at those of us who are unhappy.  Effectively being called non supporters.  Opinions do count. For or against when argued properly.

 

As for cherry picking, where have I done that?  I pointed out why successes were achieved and where mistakes were made which is pretty balanced, but if you choose to twist things and cherry pick yourself then that''s fine.  Just don''t drop the accusations on others when it is blatantly not the case.  Not so long ago many were harping on about the 10 match unbeaten run as a defence that we were getting it right.  At that time we looked like we might be.  However that run ended over a year ago and since then it has been pretty shocking.  How long do you keep with something that has been shown to not work? 10 games, half a season, a season, a year?

 

As for voting with my wallet, well there may well come a time when that happens.  however I/We will continue to go in the hope that better times are ahead.

 

I agree that it is probably too late for a change of manager, but that does not prevent the manager trying things differently does it?

 

As for the player abuse, I agree that some of it is OTT, however it is in no way childish or cowardly to criticise the performances of our own players.  If the poor performance were sporadic and  uncommon, you wouldn''t get it, but because they have been so common place over the last 12 to 13 months, the frustration is understandable.

 

Whilst the second half performance was better, it was hardly brilliant, considering such a low base to improve from.  It was by the grace of God (and a bit of Ruddy) that the game wasn''t over by half-time.  We cannot keep doing that over the remainder of the season, but it has been a regular occurrence so far. 

 

So whilst I agree us fans need to support and be more positive towards the team, the team and the manager need to respond in kind.  That for me begins with a more positive approach.  This will lift the crowd and thus the team.  Give the crowd the same turgid performances and they will respond alike.  It works both ways!

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Who''s acting a victim? You are basically defending those people who boo their own team and players during the match, and it tars us all with the same brush. I don''t particularly like being made to look like a spoilt child by association. Also, where have I accused those people of being "non-supporters" or "not counting"? If anything I have said the exact opposite.

Shouting abuse using the crowd as cover is pretty cowardly and childish IMO. I doubt many people would behave the same towards Snoddy if they saw him in Tesco.

Absolutely agree that the team need to improve to get the crowd behind them, but turning on our own players certainly isn''t going to help performances.

Anyway, as for me cherry-picking I''m not sure that''s the case. I''ve pointed out that playing good football does not automatically mean teams are going to survive in this league. Any Norwich supporter would love to see us playing Lambert-esque football and surviving at a canter, but I don''t understand why people expect that to happen so quickly.

I would rather we stay in this division and improve our squad and style of football over the long-term than risk ending up like Wigan in the short-term. Whether Hughton is the right man to do that is another matter.

I think we agree on the main issues!

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I didn''t accuse you that I.S if you read my post properly i said it was one thing that has been labeled at me and others in the past. Not specifically by you!

I will always defend fans rights to voice their opinions and feelings whether I agree with them or not. That is freedom. Is it not?

We may agree to some extent on the main issues but I think we have a different perspective on how we achieve what we want!

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[quote user="I.S."]Reggie,

Everything ultimately leads back to the manager, I don''t think anyone can dispute that. It''s a little simplistic an argument, as certain managers do exceptionally well at some clubs but fail at others so there are clearly other circumstances at play.

But let''s agree Hughton is not the man for the job, my point is that I believe it''s too late in the season for a new man to come in and change our style of play, and the board certainly don''t seem to be considering making a change anyway. Surely we need to get behind the team as a whole to help ensure survival, and then make our feelings known during the close season?[/quote]

IS - i don''t disagree that if he is staying we have no choice but to get behind the team for the rest of the season but its incredibly difficult when Hughton/the team then present us with a performance such as Tuesday nights. Nobody was booing us getting a point against a decent team, they were booing once of the most awful substandard 45 minutes from a premier league team i can ever recall watching and whilst we were a bit better in the 2nd half over the 90 minutes the performance wasn''t anywhere near an acceptable standard either.

I will support the team for the rest of the season but there is no doubt that the presence of a manager i am beginning to despise makes it a lot harder and yes unfortunately it will mean that the fans are going to be quicker to criticise than they would otherwise. That is inevitable. part of the blame however for that has to also rest with the board who knowing that a significant percentage of fans want Hughton removed have chosen to stick with him. Had they sacked him and put a new man in place then it ultimately might not have seen an upturn in results but i can 100% guarantee that the atmosphere in the ground would have been transformed.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="I.S."]Reggie, Everything ultimately leads back to the manager, I don''t think anyone can dispute that. It''s a little simplistic an argument, as certain managers do exceptionally well at some clubs but fail at others so there are clearly other circumstances at play. But let''s agree Hughton is not the man for the job, my point is that I believe it''s too late in the season for a new man to come in and change our style of play, and the board certainly don''t seem to be considering making a change anyway. Surely we need to get behind the team as a whole to help ensure survival, and then make our feelings known during the close season?[/quote] IS - i don''t disagree that if he is staying we have no choice but to get behind the team for the rest of the season but its incredibly difficult when Hughton/the team then present us with a performance such as Tuesday nights. Nobody was booing us getting a point against a decent team, they were booing once of the most awful substandard 45 minutes from a premier league team i can ever recall watching and whilst we were a bit better in the 2nd half over the 90 minutes the performance wasn''t anywhere near an acceptable standard either. I will support the team for the rest of the season but there is no doubt that the presence of a manager i am beginning to despise makes it a lot harder and yes unfortunately it will mean that the fans are going to be quicker to criticise than they would otherwise. That is inevitable. part of the blame however for that has to also rest with the board who knowing that a significant percentage of fans want Hughton removed have chosen to stick with him. Had they sacked him and put a new man in place then it ultimately might not have seen an upturn in results but i can 100% guarantee that the atmosphere in the ground would have been transformed.[/quote]

Jim I agree with you. But all this talk of "football should be entertaining", "we''re comfiortable in 12th" (for the record if you read my original posts I never said that) will a new manager do better. What I know is this football club is run as a business, first and formemost. results, tv rights and places ultimately mena money in the back. Football, it''s style, and its entertainment come second.

I personally don''t know what remit (other than keep us out of the bottom three) Mcnally gave Hughton, nor what his contract value is. But if and when Norwich sack Hughton, they would have to pay compensation, and that''s why, as others have said, they may not choose to do so until the end. It will cost the club, how much I don''t know. IN comparison to anotehr season in the Premiership, I don''t know. The fans may now be rebelling against Hughton (I personally wanted him after Lambert went, but am extremely frustrated with how we''re performaning under him), but Norwich have a near sell out every game. Therefore the revenue is coming in, and even though the football might be dire, you could say it isn''t affecting the Board one bit.

If the revenue is constant, and seats are filled, and the manager has got us to 12th, why would the Board conceivably want a change? As has been said, that 12th position is extremely fragile. We are there on merit for the points we''ve won, what Hughtons got to do is get enough points for remainder of season to avoid relegation. With goals at a premium it is concerning to know where the points will come from, but we''ve proven we can get them (hey who''d have bet that WHam would get a draw at Chelsea!) If we somehow finish there or thereabouts, again, why would the Board want to change the manager? 

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We are all football fans, and football fans are a fickle breed, chaps. And I am not up my own @rse enough to suggest that I am any different!If (and it is a big IF), there was some miraculous turnround in form and performances, we got 15 out of 18 points and rocketed up towards real midtable safety (because the midtable we are currently in in anything but safe), then I''ve no doubt that much of the grumbling, the booing, the clamouring for Hughton''s scalp and general malaise would instantly disappear. The icing on the cake would be RvW banging in a few goals and us winning a couple of matches against one of the big hitters.But, until there are any signs of that happening the status quo will remain. Who knows if what Jim says would be true...ie Hughton being replaced changing the atmosphere. It may for a couple of games, but ultimately, whoever is in charge, the long term atmosphere will not improve until we are provided with something approaching what I described above.

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Footballs a funny old game. It could only take a bit of luck, a piece of skill & RVW gets one goal, and we could see a completely different player second half of season.

Confidence is a wonderful thing!

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[quote user="Yellow Bird"]Yes, we are 12th, but, like said, its tight. Anyone who was at Carrow Road on Tuesday night, would''ve seen just how bad we were, especially in the first half. Had we of played like we did against Man Utd, we could''ve won and 3 more points on the board.

I just cannot see where the goals are going to come from to keep us up. Sunderland won again, Villa won and scored 4 goals. I know they conceded 3, but I''d take that. It showed team spirit, something that appears to have been sucked out of our squad. Yes we kept a clean sheet, but we didnt score. 0-0 results for the rest of the season will see us drop.

I too think if we drop into the bottom 3, we won''t be able to lift ourselves back up.[/quote]

0-0 results for the rest of the season will see us on 39 points and well clear of trouble.Who cares about Villa, they are ahead of us and did us a favour by beating a team below us. They''ve got to play everyone below us except Sunderland. Be nice for us if they won them all.

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[quote user="I.S."]Snake,

You are saying that a more entertaining style of play will always bring better results, but there is simply no guarantee that this is the case. You cannot pick and choose parts of a team''s performance to suit your argument - the fact of the matter is that teams like Wigan, Blackpool were extremely exciting to watch but ultimately ended up relegated.

Everyone wants us to be playing better football - that is nothing to do with negativity, but people who seem to think that changing the manager will guarantee better football AND better results at this stage of the season are being unrealistic in my opinion. The fact that the manager hasn''t been sacked yet means that those people who do want a change at all costs are being excessively negative.

As you say, there is also no guarantee that the way we play will bring us the results we need, but we survived last season and are currently sitting in 12th with just over a third of the season to go. Sacking the manager before the season is out would be a massive risk.

Onto the subject of booing, people can do what they want. But why boo after a much improved second-half performance against Newcastle? Would people have booed if Snodgrass'' header had gone in, or Hooper''s volley? Do you reckon those who slated Snodgrass in the first half would have stood there arms crossed?

If you don''t like the product then vote with your wallet, but booing regardless of improvement is only going to undermine confidence and performances even more. I don''t want to hear people abusing our own team and players near me during a game - I think it''s childish and cowardly. But I guess my opinion doesn''t count?[/quote]

IS, you really must stop making up stuff so that you can reply to that instead"You are saying that a more entertaining style of play will always bring better results"whereas what the poster actually said was -

The proof is everywhere that better styles of football do generally bring better results more often than not. Not ''always'' as you claimed. You next talk of "people who seem to think that changing the manager will guarantee better football AND better results at this stage of the season" - but who and where are these people who talk of guarantees ? None that I have spoken to or read on here. This is a classic piece of duplicity that avoids actually addressing other posters real arguments.For my point it is not enough to say that staying up at virtually any cost is ok. It is not when you see the havoc Hughton is wrecking upon the squad, never mind the supporters. Players are being made to look awful and there is very little sign of any development amongst them. This cannot be what they joined us for - a club with an excellent youth coaching set up that had just won the FA Youth cup.As said elsewhere, it cannot be coincidence that a promising young dutch international (RVW) has been made to look a failure, that a fellow dutch international (Fer) is struggling, and an England international (Ruddy) appears to have the heebee-jeebies, as does the bloke in front of him (Bassong), a Championship scorer (Becchio) has been left to rot as has our most creative player (Hool) and an SPL top scorer over a number of seasons is now a shadow of his former self.Certainly the players will do their best to grind out the results if only for the bonuses now and at the end of the season but this is not how it should be, and to continue with this destructive pattern will do far longer term damage to the club than even relegation will do.

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City1st, here''s the definition of inherent for you.

inherent

1.

existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Now I obviously don''t have your masterful command of the English language, but snake-eyes clearly said that better football inherently leads to better results.

I''m not arguing the toss with you over it because you constantly shift the goalposts. My argument is that changing the manager at this time of the season would be too much of a risk given our current league position, not that Hughton should remain in charge indefinitely. Perhaps you should take your own advice and read posts in full before commenting.

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