Hughton is wasting van Wolfswinkel - latest blog

[Bill 1,788]

which points other than it is not the managers responsibility to manage or be held accountable ? or the point about the weather ? can''t think of any other points you have made over the past few months that has suggested that your head is not stuck firmly where it should not (?) be stuck

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="City1st"]which points other than it is not the managers responsibility to manage or be held accountable ? or the point about the weather ? can''t think of any other points you have made over the past few months that has suggested that your head is not stuck firmly where it should not (?) be stuck[/quote]You can do better than that.The question about injuries, which you conveniently ignored in my last post, preferring instead just to be "clever"

[Molly Windley 76]

Just joined the forum looking for some healthy debate and to see a range of opinions on all things Norwich. Unfortunately every thread is hijacked by a few who carry out Ad Hominem attacks on each other. Disappointing

[CJ 0]

Sorry LDC even Hughton says buck stops with him. Let us be honest we have a decent squad with individually good players who given freedom as was shown against WBA and more impressively against Man City can play great football. I am afraid Hughton has concentrated so much on playing to a set plan that not only do the oppo know where the ball is going so do the fans.

Only Hools has shown he breaks the plan and hence rarely plays. The team is over coached and too predictable hence the oppo know exactly how to stop our game.

Hughton should have spent more time keeping team fit and let their undoubted skill show through. The way we played at Fulham and Everton is typical now start bright lose a goal and give up! There is so little passion in the team it is awful, and clear they do not enjoy playing under this manager.

And you only have to look at clubs like Man U , Sunderland, Crystal Palace, Southampton to see how changing manager without changing any players can change matters.

I hate the feeling that I want to see us lose against Hull but dread a draw and death by dire almost trench warfare tactics.

I have got to stage where even a win could just delay inevitable, I honestly hope I am wrong

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]which points other than it is not the managers responsibility to manage or be held accountable ? or the point about the weather ? can''t think of any other points you have made over the past few months that has suggested that your head is not stuck firmly where it should not (?) be stuck[/quote]You can do better than that.The question about injuries, which you conveniently ignored in my last post, preferring instead just to be "clever"

[/quote]I shall leave you to your ranting

[E I E I E I O 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]This thread is bordering on the imbecilic.    Hugton gets the blame for everything.  At Fulham, the team were losing and RVW came back to help the midfield, like any good player would who sees his team needs help. Holt used to do it all the time.   The fact that we still play Snodgrass and Johnson - and that Fox played shows the limitations of our squad.  Hoolahan could have played or come on - but frankly when Hoolahan played in the away game in the cup at Man Utd - he was anonymous against a team overunning us in midfield - as at Fulham.  

RVW is a class player - anyone can see that from his technique and composure - and intelligence.  He will score goals when we get the midfield to function with the best players in it.  Injuries are one thing you can''t blame Hughton for (well some could, I reckon) and it is midfield that is still causing us problems.  

Hughton?  Well he gets the blame for everything.  He is this season''s  scapegoat.   

[/quote]Another ridiculous post!! Of course he is to blame:A. he purchased him.B. The OP''s explanation of our attacking plan is spot on. Whichever way you look at it he is to blame.

[snake-eyes 13]

LDC,

 

Why then aren''t these sophisticated tactics working? Those howls of derision don''t come from those ''ITK''. They come from people who have some experience, analyse and come to a conclusion which is their opinion.  It is an opinion that is not one formed of gut feelings and emotion, but one of thought, logic and experience.(Some may not be, but you can tell those that do.) 

 

If these tactics are so good and sophisticated, why isn''t every team employing them?  Also, many of the top teams don''t employ them. Or if they are, they look totally different to anything we have demonstrated so far, which means, the manager is unable to convey his thoughts, ideas and philosophy to his players.  If after so long is still unable to convey this or the players are unable to implement it properly then either the players are not good enough, the manager is not good enough or the method is wrong for these players.  Either way you change something, don''t you?

 

Despite the claim of sophistication towards our style of play, or intended style of play, I am yet to hear a detailed explanation of why it should be described as such.  It is just a different philosophy.  My opinion is that it is failing with our team and therefore wrong. It may work with different players, but it is failing us and has done for a considerable amount of time.

 

The right philosophy or way of playing is the one that works with what you have.

 

Oh and yes the weather is his fault, because I saw him doing a raindance a while back, so there! Hmmph! [:P]

 

Snake

[E I E I E I O 0]

He has been making good runs and spins off the last defender all season. Unfortunately he has not received the ball once for his efforts. I believe Hughtons plan is that the ball has to go to Snodgrass (His Fav) before we are allowed to actually try and score. Unfortunately Mr one foot is no good!

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]which points other than it is not the managers responsibility to manage or be held accountable ? or the point about the weather ? can''t think of any other points you have made over the past few months that has suggested that your head is not stuck firmly where it should not (?) be stuck[/quote]You can do better than that.The question about injuries, which you conveniently ignored in my last post, preferring instead just to be "clever"

[/quote]I shall leave you to your ranting[/quote]

  [:D]   Ranting?   Seriously?

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Truculent Trucker"]He''s the manager and so the buck stops with him if his team is under performing - simple. The little matter of up to one million pounds a year in payment for his "efforts" says that he is fully responsible for the football department. Tough but fair.[/quote]

True, but players have their own responsibility to perform.  I''ve not seen anything with RVW that suggests he isn''t doing well.  Obviously a goal would help, but strikers sometimes take a while to settle. Patience is the key.   I know some have lost their patience.  RVW has to keep his - he is a professional and is doing - imo - a good job  "Hughton is wasting van Wolfswinkel" is just a flash headline, which imo means little in reality.  It just boosts the bandwagon that says every thing Hughton does is wrong.   

[/quote]Except he is wasting him.Daniel''s article is superb. It cuts right through all the emotion, all the background noise, all the "HOOTUN IS KILLING MY CLUB!" hyperbole, and looks at why things are going wrong. It''s quite extraordinary how hard a time of it RVW has had; and this piece explains why, beautifully.Last season, Hughton got the benefit of the doubt from most of us because he''d looked at the squad, decided it just didn''t have enough attacking threat, so focused on a defensive approach instead. In a holding season - a whatever you do, just stay in this goddamn division season - that was fair enough. So the question was: when we strengthened offensively, would Hughton know how to get the best out of those new players?Answer: no. It alarms me that he doesn''t appear to have grasped what Daniel has; I don''t think he understands why we produce so little in "that final third". His over-reliance on Snodgrass, who has so little instinct for the game at this level, it beggars belief, has done my head in for over a year now; his treatment of Hoolahan has been an absolute disgrace.When we signed RVW and Fer, Hughton needed to evolve his approach. I think he''s tried to do that - but without knowing how to use the tools at his disposal in order to do so, it''s not worked in any way. We''ve strengthened, spent absolute bucketloads of cash by our standards only to get worse, and the buck stops with him. As it does with any manager, or any (I''m looking at you, Colin Calderwood) management team. See that chap in your avatar? The buck stopped with him as well; and a bloody good thing too. "The players must take responsibility!" Sorry, only if they''re used correctly; just like this country was getting nowhere in the war until the hopeless man in charge was replaced by someone with a clue; by someone, above all, with exactly the right attitude to the task ahead.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Truculent Trucker"]He''s the manager and so the buck stops with him if his team is under performing - simple. The little matter of up to one million pounds a year in payment for his "efforts" says that he is fully responsible for the football department. Tough but fair.[/quote]True, but players have their own responsibility to perform.  I''ve not seen anything with RVW that suggests he isn''t doing well.  Obviously a goal would help, but strikers sometimes take a while to settle. Patience is the key.   I know some have lost their patience.  RVW has to keep his - he is a professional and is doing - imo - a good job  "Hughton is wasting van Wolfswinkel" is just a flash headline, which imo means little in reality.  It just boosts the bandwagon that says every thing Hughton does is wrong.    [/quote]Except he is wasting him.Daniel''s article is superb. It cuts right through all the emotion, all the background noise, all the "HOOTUN IS KILLING MY CLUB!" hyperbole, and looks at why things are going wrong. It''s quite extraordinary how hard a time of it RVW has had; and this piece explains why, beautifully.Last season, Hughton got the benefit of the doubt from most of us because he''d looked at the squad, decided it just didn''t have enough attacking threat, so focused on a defensive approach instead. In a holding season - a whatever you do, just stay in this goddamn division season - that was fair enough. So the question was: when we strengthened offensively, would Hughton know how to get the best out of those new players?Answer: no. It alarms me that he doesn''t appear to have grasped what Daniel has; I don''t think he understands why we produce so little in "that final third". His over-reliance on Snodgrass, who has so little instinct for the game at this level, it beggars belief, has done my head in for over a year now; his treatment of Hoolahan has been an absolute disgrace.When we signed RVW and Fer, Hughton needed to evolve his approach. I think he''s tried to do that - but without knowing how to use the tools at his disposal in order to do so, it''s not worked in any way. We''ve strengthened, spent absolute bucketloads of cash by our standards only to get worse, and the buck stops with him. As it does with any manager, or any (I''m looking at you, Colin Calderwood) management team. See that chap in your avatar? The buck stopped with him as well; and a bloody good thing too. "The players must take responsibility!" Sorry, only if they''re used correctly; just like this country was getting nowhere in the war until the hopeless man in charge was replaced by someone with a clue; by someone, above all, with exactly the right attitude to the task ahead. [/quote]

I have to disagree strongly.  I''ve just read through the op again and it is full of flowery language and immotive comments that to me do the opposite of "cut through the emotion".   It ignores his long injury, it ignores that our midfield consisted of Fox  Johnson Snodgrass and Redmond that night.  Redmond is inexperienced, Snodgrass is slow, Johnson and Fox would not be picked if Tettey and Howson were fit.   You can question team selection, but the team is only as good as the players that are put out there.   So who else could we have put out wide?   Bennett?  Pilkington?   Who else could we have put in midfield?   Hoolahan in the middle?  Not always been a good idea, that one.    I stand by my post as being at least as accurate as the op''s.  RVW went looking for the ball - as strikers do - Holt used to do it under Lambert and Hughton.   What do we want.  RVW standing around at the front when the team is being overun?   There is to me little balance in the op''s argument.   Just a continuation of a one sided view of things that we get all the time. It was interesting he took note of that commentator''s comment "RVW standing around all the time" wheras others - me included - thought he was terrific in the way he played - including going deep sometimes.  In some circumstances it is necessary.  It just goes to show that people see what they want to see and put their own meaning to it.  

[im spartacus canary 0]

Good post DB.....  Hughton out now !!!!!

[Daniel Brigham 0]

Hi LDC. I''m not sure what RVW''s injury has to do with my point. Hughton wasted his talents before the injury and he''s wasting it post-injury.

Hoolahan, or Fer, should have been on to play behind RVW - no need for Becchio. Then there would have been no need to have our goalscorer dropping so deep. I agree that our midfield didn''t play well, but my piece was more a comment on the entire season, not just Fulham. We have consistently lacked an attacking philosophy that brings the best out of our (or any) strikers, and that includes when we''ve been at full strength in midfield (Tettey behind Fer & Howson).

As I wrote before, my point is that the wingers aren''t cutting inside all of the time because they feel like it. They''re cutting inside because it''s part of the gameplan. And that''s down to the manager.

Same with our midfielders pushing it out wide rather than playing through the middle. It''s the gameplan, and it isn''t working - and isn''t playing into the strengths of RVW or Hooper.

That''s why I feel Hughton is wasting their talents.

And you still haven''t explained what you think Hughton''s attacking gameplan is. You can''t just tell people they''re wrong without offering your insight into how you think Hughton likes his teams to attack, and how that is playing into our strikers'' strengths.

[Bill 1,788]

"You can''t just tell people they''re wrong without offering your insight .... "

why not, that has pretty much been his style since he has been here

[Splendid Rush 2]

Excellent piece. Well done.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Daniel Brigham"]Hi LDC. I''m not sure what RVW''s injury has to do with my point. Hughton wasted his talents before the injury and he''s wasting it post-injury.

Hoolahan, or Fer, should have been on to play behind RVW - no need for Becchio. Then there would have been no need to have our goalscorer dropping so deep. I agree that our midfield didn''t play well, but my piece was more a comment on the entire season, not just Fulham. We have consistently lacked an attacking philosophy that brings the best out of our (or any) strikers, and that includes when we''ve been at full strength in midfield (Tettey behind Fer & Howson).

As I wrote before, my point is that the wingers aren''t cutting inside all of the time because they feel like it. They''re cutting inside because it''s part of the gameplan. And that''s down to the manager.

Same with our midfielders pushing it out wide rather than playing through the middle. It''s the gameplan, and it isn''t working - and isn''t playing into the strengths of RVW or Hooper.

That''s why I feel Hughton is wasting their talents.

And you still haven''t explained what you think Hughton''s attacking gameplan is. You can''t just tell people they''re wrong without offering your insight into how you think Hughton likes his teams to attack, and how that is playing into our strikers'' strengths.[/quote]

The game plan is to get Fer and Howson  - our two best midfielders imo - working together, using the wide players too of course, playing through balls when  possible - as at WBA - get the strikers scoring - Hooper manged it after coming back from injury - RVW will as he gets in to things.  Was RVW misused when he first arrived?   I don''t think so.  He has looked a lot better to me since coming back from his injury.  In those first few weeks, although working hard, we still had the same wide issues - Snodrass and Redmond more often than not having the same supply issues, the midfield without Tettey susceptible to slow build up and giving the ball away too many times.  

So for me its a mixture of things.  The players.  Injuries.  The manager too.  The opposition - that often gets left out of these arguments - Fulham for instance had a team that meant business, we merely had a team that would hope to get us by - through circumstance of injuries and saving players for the league).   The manager is part of the equation and the buck stops with him - but - it is not all down to him - imo.

[Bill 1,788]

"The opposition - that often gets left out of these arguments"

That is far ken priceless ! ! !You are truly a star LDCOne of the all time wind up merchants, dragging all of the many apologists in your wake by sending up them and their nonsense something rotten

If only the opposition didn''t turn up Hughton might win a game(or not) .................... a gem of the highest orderI take my hat off to you

[!M.u.s.t.a.r.d_M.a.t.t.e.r.s! 0]

[quote user="Daniel Brigham"]Lake, my point though is that the wingers aren''t cutting inside all of the time because they feel like it. They''re cutting inside because it''s part of the gameplan. And that''s down to the manager.

Same with our midfielders pushing it out wide rather than playing through the middle. It''s the gameplan, and it isn''t working - and isn''t playing into the strengths of RVW or Hooper.

That''s why I feel Hughton is wasting their talents - I stand by the headline.[/quote]I always enjoy reading your posts Daniel and I, too, applaud LDC''s stoicism. The gameplan as you have described it isn''t working. I''m interested in your view as to why CH would persist in such a gameplan. I cannot believe it is down to sheer stubbornness - so there are, presumably, some defensive advantages given CH''s predisposition to a defensive philosophy. What do you think they are?

[ron obvious 1,501]

Excellent piece (incidentally, I''m 63 & had no problem with cultural references!).

How often has the Hooligan been available concurrently with RvW? My main beef would be the lack of game time given to a Wes/RvW combo. Wes gets criticised for being uninfluential in some games, but I suspect that''s because there''s nobody with the nous or ability to get on his wavelength. I believe Ricky could be that man.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="City1st"]"The opposition - that often gets left out of these arguments"That is far ken priceless ! ! !You are truly a star LDCOne of the all time wind up merchants, dragging all of the many apologists in your wake by sending up them and their nonsense something rottenIf only the opposition didn''t turn up Hughton might win a game(or not) .................... a gem of the highest orderI take my hat off to you[/quote]

I agree with Morty.   You''re barking.  The opposition - the majority of whom have far bigger resources than us - care to dispute that?Or how about answering my question earlier this thread when you ignored my point about  injuries this season, in favour of yet another put down.Well, do injuries have some bearing on a team''s performance, or not?  And if they do, does that not offer part of the reason we have struggled in recent weeks?  Mind, I said PART of the reason, not the whole reason.  

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

Just got in from work. Good piece Daniel.

I bet RVW knows the expression .....Space is created, Ball is delivered , player arrives.... probably drummed into him since he was a kid ( or the dutch equivalent). His awareness of space..and creation of same is top notch, but the ball is rarely delivered into aforementioned space at the right moment, hence him looking on his heels when, if, it does arrive.

Against Hull and Everton, the ball was rarely if ever put in front of our quicker players, Murf and Redders would love something to come on to i''m sure, instead they first have to pass or beat their man, before really getting a move on.

The transition from defence to attack is slowed by the inverted wingers, early curved balls from the wide men playing on their correct side would release RVW....but for some reason we dont play like that.

So yes Daniel , i agree, at the moment we defo not making the most of a decent player. ( more than one in my opinion but thats another story).

[Bill 1,788]

I''m not too sure if I am being had as well - you can never tell how far these bluffs gobut hey hoWe were struggling as you put it when we did not have these injuriesWe were ''struggling; last season when we were told that Hughton was focusing on the defence ... or, when he did not have his own playersWhy were we struggling or sh ite as I would put it then ?Why not explain that instead of keeping finding new excuses ?

[Daniel Brigham 0]

Lake, you say "The game plan is to get Fer and Howson - our two best midfielders imo - working together, using the wide players too of course, playing through balls when possible - as at WBA - get the strikers scoring". But working together how? And using the wide players how? Get the strikers scoring how?

The midfield have played through balls, of course they have, but the default option is to put the ball to the wide players who then turn inside. slowing things down.

RVW thrives on balls that allows him to run off the shoulder of defenders or balls into the box from out wide as he is excellent in the air. Our attacking gameplan goes against these strengths.

Of course other factors come into play, It''s not black and white. Injuries haven''t helped, but that applies to every club, every manager. But when the manager is employing an attacking philosophy that does not play to the strengths of our strikers or midfielders there is something fundamentally wrong with the approach.

In answer to Mustard Matters - I am as flummuxed as you are!

[hogesar 9,618]

Fantastic piece Daniel, a good read.

As for what LDC is trying to bark on about what he thinks Hughton game plan is - well it shows a fantastic insight into his tactical knowledge which perhaps helps explains his somewhat unexplainable defending of Hughton continuously.

[Bill 1,788]

"As for what LDC is trying to bark on about what he thinks Hughton game plan is "

I don''t know, this a quite succinct but yet in depth analysis of Hughtons game plan .....................

The game plan is to get Fer and Howson  - our two best midfielders imo -

working together, using the wide players too of course, playing through

balls when  possible - as at WBA - get the strikers scoring .............. ( LDC)or maybe a massive send up

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="Daniel Brigham"]Hi LDC. I''m not sure what RVW''s injury has to do with my point. Hughton wasted his talents before the injury and he''s wasting it post-injury.

Hoolahan, or Fer, should have been on to play behind RVW - no need for Becchio. Then there would have been no need to have our goalscorer dropping so deep. I agree that our midfield didn''t play well, but my piece was more a comment on the entire season, not just Fulham. We have consistently lacked an attacking philosophy that brings the best out of our (or any) strikers, and that includes when we''ve been at full strength in midfield (Tettey behind Fer & Howson).

As I wrote before, my point is that the wingers aren''t cutting inside all of the time because they feel like it. They''re cutting inside because it''s part of the gameplan. And that''s down to the manager.

Same with our midfielders pushing it out wide rather than playing through the middle. It''s the gameplan, and it isn''t working - and isn''t playing into the strengths of RVW or Hooper.

That''s why I feel Hughton is wasting their talents.

And you still haven''t explained what you think Hughton''s attacking gameplan is. You can''t just tell people they''re wrong without offering your insight into how you think Hughton likes his teams to attack, and how that is playing into our strikers'' strengths.[/quote]Yep. And as an aside, this miserable inability to understand how to deploy players in the hole, and link them up effectively with a striker, is quite horribly British. At international level, our sides are absurdly predictable: everything in straight lines, no triangles (which are what good football is actually all about) at all. And that goes back to coaching and general attitudes throughout the English and British games.So here we have Hughton: the quintessential British gent, even given his Irish mother. He was assistant manager of the Republic of Ireland, the world''s most relentlessly, pathologically boring international team; his methods at Newcastle and Birmingham were simple and straightforward enough. Norwich, meanwhile, have been packed with British players for years now, more than maybe any other Premier League club: so it was the ideal job for him when he was appointed, but now that we''ve begun to upgrade to players from more cerebral footballing cultures, he just doesn''t know what to do.Hoolahan''s treatment by both club and country has been because he''s the sort of player who British managers (or foreign managers when they take over international teams on these islands and swallow the stereotype about our players completely: see Trapattoni, G; Capello, F; and Eriksson, S-G) just don''t trust. They don''t track back enough, you see; they''re ''luxuries''. But actually, they''re the only sort of player who can unlock defences at the highest level; an industrious workhorse like Snodgrass is never, ever going to have the same impact.So England wasted a player of the vision of Scholes; chucked him, then Joe Cole, then Gerrard out onto the left wing when every one of them should''ve been in the hole behind Rooney; and Ireland wasted Hoolahan, as Norwich have done for a year and a half now too. It''s clueless: all so predictable, everything in straight lines.What amazes me about Hughton, though, is he spent his entire club career for one of the few sides in England who''ve never played this way. For as long as I can remember, Tottenham have invariably tried to play like a continental side; actually, like a Dutch side in many ways. But good old, dependable, safety first Chris doesn''t seem to have learnt a single thing about their methods; and neither has his assistant: regarding whom, the least said, the better.This is why I desperately want us to look overseas now. We''re 15th in the world''s highest profile league: with a huge catchment area, tremendous fanbase, excellent stadium, facilities and youth system. There''s dozens of hugely talented coaches in France, Holland, Germany or Italy who''d love a job like that - and if we want to sign players like Nicolas Burdisso, who rejected our interest in him yesterday, we have to upgrade our management team to people who have a far, far better grasp of the modern, globalised game.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="City1st"]"As for what LDC is trying to bark on about what he thinks Hughton game plan is "I don''t know, this a quite succinct but yet in depth analysis of Hughtons game plan .....................The game plan is to get Fer and Howson  - our two best midfielders imo -

working together, using the wide players too of course, playing through

balls when  possible - as at WBA - get the strikers scoring .............. ( LDC)or maybe a massive send up [/quote]

Oh yes, I forgot, you''re all "experts".  So Fer and Howson aren''t our best two midfielders?  The link up play between the midfield and wide players is what lets us down.  If the players were less selfish, or had more pace, or could pass better we might do better, as when Howson and Fer were in the centre.   Mock if you like, but its not that complicated - and Hughton who is of course part of the equation - is only as good as the available players - and at the moment the ones available are struggling.

[Bill 1,788]

give it a rest LDCread the post aboveread the OPor simply watch the game tomorrowand in the meantime go off and get a pint and take a breakbefore this all gets too much for you ........................ it''s Friday night my friend

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="City1st"]give it a rest LDCread the post aboveread the OPor simply watch the game tomorrowand in the meantime go off and get a pint and take a breakbefore this all gets too much for you ........................ it''s Friday night my friend[/quote]

You are priceless. Barking, but priceless.

[Daniel Brigham 0]

So just to be clear Lake. You think the current gameplan of pushing it out wide, cutting inside, allowing the opposition to get back in numbers and delivering the ball late will get the best out of RVW?