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MancCanary

Is it all down to our style of play?

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[quote user="Phillip J Fry"]
Looking at the games since the Switch to 4-4-2 the possession statistics have been:
West Ham: 47%
Newcastle: 51% We did not play a 4-4-2
Crystal Palace: 60%
WBA: 36%
Swansea: 37%
Sunderland: 41%. 
Average (excluding Liverpool game where we played 4-5-1): 45.3% which is actually slightly higher than the average before the switch to 4-4-2.
  
[/quote]The seasons average being 45.2%, negligible difference, and we played a host of decent sides prior to the switch, so all round meaningless.

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[quote user="ron obvious"]

I firmly believe we would have been lucky to avoid relegation by now under Lambert. His reign was the fantasy, the stuff dreams are made on, this is reality. And reality bites.[/quote]No idea why anyone would think this.  he has hardly led Villa down to the championship.  The most depressing thing for us is looking at Swansea have come, albeit they have a very tough season this year due to their Europa League appearance.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="Phillip J Fry"]
Looking at the games since the Switch to 4-4-2 the possession statistics have been:
West Ham: 47%
Newcastle: 51% We did not play a 4-4-2
Crystal Palace: 60%
WBA: 36%
Swansea: 37%
Sunderland: 41%. 
Average (excluding Liverpool game where we played 4-5-1): 45.3% which is actually slightly higher than the average before the switch to 4-4-2.
  
[/quote]The seasons average being 45.2%, negligible difference, and we played a host of decent sides prior to the switch, so all round meaningless.[/quote]
But doesn''t this also disprove your point about being more willing to sacrifice possession? If the difference in possession is negligible when you compare both 4-4-2 and non 4-4-2 than surely it shows we''re not more willing to sacrifice possession.   

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[quote user="Phillip J Fry"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="Phillip J Fry"]
Looking at the games since the Switch to 4-4-2 the possession statistics have been:
West Ham: 47%
Newcastle: 51% We did not play a 4-4-2
Crystal Palace: 60%
WBA: 36%
Swansea: 37%
Sunderland: 41%. 
Average (excluding Liverpool game where we played 4-5-1): 45.3% which is actually slightly higher than the average before the switch to 4-4-2.
  
[/quote]The seasons average being 45.2%, negligible difference, and we played a host of decent sides prior to the switch, so all round meaningless.[/quote]
But doesn''t this also disprove your point about being more willing to sacrifice possession? If the difference in possession is negligible when you compare both 4-4-2 and non 4-4-2 than surely it shows we''re not more willing to sacrifice possession.   
[/quote]Unless of course you would expect lower possession in the other group of games due to them being more difficult.  Also Palace does seem to be a bit of an outlier there.  But one thing this does show, is that 4-4-2 is not as dead as many posters thought it was.  There have been plenty calling for 2 up front for a good while.

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Citizen Journalist Foghorn wrote:

(ron obvious wrote:

I firmly believe we would have been lucky to avoid relegation by now under Lambert. His reign was the fantasy, the stuff dreams are made on, this is reality. And reality bites.)

No idea why anyone would think this. he has hardly led Villa down to the championship.

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Lambert fancied his chances at Villa much more than he did here. The rebuilding job needed there was far less of a task than here - he had an established Premiership squad, with players worth decent money, & a budget for that year far higher than ours.

His results at Villa have hardly been spectacular. With us they could (& I strongly suspect would) have nosedived. He could see the writing on the wall & was offski pronto.

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[quote user="ron obvious"]It''s simply because Hughton isn''t Lambert.

Lambert provided the most exciting 3 years at Norwich in a long, long time. Hughton simply cannot do this - how can he achieve back to back promotions? Except by getting relegated again, & I don''t think anyone would be very happy with that.

It was exhilarating, but it was never going to last -rather like the super sexy (& very ambitious) girlfriend - & now the mundane slog starts - steady, reliable missus, kids, mortgage, pension ... you know it makes sense.

I firmly believe we would have been lucky to avoid relegation by now under Lambert. His reign was the fantasy, the stuff dreams are made on, this is reality. And reality bites.[/quote]I don''t buy that. It may be true for a few fans. But there are deep-seated concerns about Hughton that are perfectly sensible.

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There are certainly deep-seated concerns about Hughton that are perfectly sensible. I have deep-seated concerns about Hughton. But my comments are still valid. And they apply to an awful lot of fans too, not a few.

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---- ron obvious ----

Lambert fancied his chances at Villa much more than he did here. The rebuilding job needed there was far less of a task than here - he had an established Premiership squad, with players worth decent money, & a budget for that year far higher than ours. His results at Villa have hardly been spectacular. With us they could (& I strongly suspect would) have nosedived. He could see the writing on the wall & was offski pronto.

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Rubbish, Villa were worse than us, the table does not lie, they had been selling anyone decent in order to recoup cash. Hence a +£25 million net sales in the season before Lambert took over. The rebuilding job at Villa was huge. As for budget, him and Hughton have spent a very similar amount of money in their two seasons.

Lambert left because as you say, he saw a bigger premiership club and he thought a much larger budget and prospects.

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-------PurpleCanary-------

I don''t buy that. It may be true for a few fans. But there are deep-seated concerns about Hughton that are perfectly sensible.

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Me either, look at Swansea who had to get a new manager, they didn''t change their style and actually moved up another level with a League Cup win and Europa Cup appearance. The fantasy continues at the Liberty Stadium.

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Foggy, if the table doesn''t lie then what is there to moan about..

 

Of course it doesn''t lie but won''t tell the whole truth until all the clubs have played 38. Did it lie last season though...

 

 

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---- Warren Hill ---

The league table also shows us being a solitary point behind the Fantasy Footballers at Swansea. Live the dream indeed..

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Of course they are hindered by the Europa League this season, muchlike Newcastle last season. It would be nice for us to be hindered by the European Football sometime in the future.

----Nutty Nigel ----

Foggy, if the table doesn''t lie then what is there to moan about..

Of course it doesn''t lie but won''t tell the whole truth until all the clubs have played 38. Did it lie last season though...

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Nope, of course not. It did mask that we could have been above the drop zone on goal difference just two games from the end of the season. It also was a dire season of football from us.

Hughton is doing a very competent job. More Bruce than Martinez however.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]-------PurpleCanary-------

I don''t buy that. It may be true for a few fans. But there are deep-seated concerns about Hughton that are perfectly sensible.

---------------------------------

Me either, look at Swansea who had to get a new manager, they didn''t change their style and actually moved up another level with a League Cup win and Europa Cup appearance. The fantasy continues at the Liberty Stadium.[/quote]

But that is the point Foggy and if you will forgive me, it is a widespread misconception.

Swansea were able to replace Rodgers with a similar style manager in Laudrup because the effect of the manager was to require a style of play. In that case, you get a manager who supports the style and the style continues. It went from Martinez to Rodgers and then to Laudrup

Stoke could have replaced Pulis with Bothroyd or even Malky and kept playing the similar way.

Lambert did not have a style as such. His success was, as widely reported by the players being about inspiration and not tactics. To replicate Lambert''s style, you would need another manager who could take our players and make them believe they were better than they were. It was not just a case of saying "Attack" and everything would come right.

So, where would we find another manager like Lambert? Another inspirational manager to tell the players they would overcome whatever? Such leaders are far and few between and such skills rarely succeed for long at this level because better teams will prevail more often than not.

Replacing Lambert and carrying on as we were was not an option. He was a one off. Anyone else had to do something different. We were never Swansea and it was never a case of the new manager just picking up the baton and carrying on with the project as it was at Swansea. The evidence for that is that most of the players that went with Lambert into the Prem and did so well for him in that first season are now in the Championship. He made them play better than they were but that is a rare gift and not one that anybody could just take over.

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------CambridgeCanary-------

Lambert did not have a style as such. His success was, as widely reported by the players being about inspiration and not tactics.

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That''s not really true is it. Lambert never forgets the attacking side of football. And was flexible in his tactics with the courage to give things a try. In fact Brendan Rogers is showing similar traits at Liverpool now.

Hughton is a very conservative rigid manager, ala Steve Bruce or David Moyes. That''s not to say he won''t keep us up, but i doubt he will never achieve anything special with us. He is doing a very competent job while excelling in the transfer market. I suppose we can''t ask for more than that.

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Insofaras I can understand your reply, I''m not sure you disagree with me. Lambert does not have a style as Wenger or Rodgers or Hughton do.

I repeat my question. How could you replace Lambert with a manager to carry on similarly to how he had? It was a skill personal to him.

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"Regenerated" is the word I should have used.  Under Davison, we still beat the Cybermen and Daleks but we did it in a more calculated and mechanical (or disciplined, if you prefer) way.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"]For me, it''s almost exactly like Dr. Who when Tom Baker transformed into Peter Davison.[/quote]I think this analogy has legs. Can I be the first to suggest Colin Baker turning into Sylvester McCoy has to be Roeder transmogrifying into Gunn...

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Davison is an excellent call for Hughton, MrC, but possibly Tennant for Lambert? Both a bit wild-eyed & inspirational (& Scottish to boot).

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Mister Chops"]For me, it''s almost exactly like Dr. Who when Tom Baker transformed into Peter Davison.[/quote]I think this analogy has legs. Can I be the first to suggest Colin Baker turning into Sylvester McCoy has to be Roeder transmogrifying into Gunn...[/quote]Or in lookalike terms, Anne Robinson turning into Bela Lugosi...

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