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I heard them say that on setanta. Its because they generally dont come on until the 88th minute... Shows that subs can change a game though. General concencus on the stream I was watching was that Welbeck coming on at halftime changed the game

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]I heard them say that on setanta. Its because they generally dont come on until the 88th minute... Shows that subs can change a game though. General concencus on the stream I was watching was that Welbeck coming on at halftime changed the game[/quote]I watch streams every week & I always find it strange that the commentator & his pundit can always see what our problems are but Hughton can''t. Gary Birtles, who gets our game more often than not, has been talking about our problems all season - maybe Hughton should give him a call.Or perhaps Hughton would be better off siting up in the stands for a couple matches & get a better view of the game. On the other, perhaps he does know what the problems are but still decides to do nothing about it until it''s too late.

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I would be worried about this statistic IF we hadn''t scored important late goals in games. Substitutes don''t have to score the goals to make the impact. One game that springs to mind is the positive impact Josh Murphy had away at WBA (he fed Redmond who fed Leroy for the second)

In fact if we look at the Cup, Josh Murphy scored off the bench and Elmander was key to the change in the team when coming off the bench (at HT)

I think we need to start looking at how we are actually performing, anyone in their right mind can see we got our tactics spot on yesterday, if it hadn''t been for a lucky deflection putting Welbeck through Man U were doing nothing because of our hustle and good efforts at the other end of the pitch. Unfortunately Hooper plays better with a second man up there with him (all his goals have come with Elmander by his side) but 4-4-2 would leave us too exposed in midfield v Man U. Once we started swinging in crosses/high balls into the box the Wolf was a better option as he game suits that better, unfortunately that "killer ball" was lacking

Also Gary Birtles is an idiot. I also watch the streams and I rarely agree with a single word he says.

With regards to our "problems" the main problem we have is putting the ball into the net, we cannot do this every match - it is rare for any team to do that but tactically as a manager all you can do is set up a solid shape to defend and also as a springboard to attack and create chances, without getting on the pitch himself and heading home he cannot do much more. We outshot Man U yesterday 2:1 so where you need to be looking is Man U got one good chance and put it away, we had a couple of half chances and didn''t. That is the story of our season

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This is a strange stat. What''s it supposed to prove? Another way of looking at this is that we have scored more goals after the 60th minute than before it. It could be said that Hughton''s methods in the last 30 mins are more effective than the first 60.

 

Streams and Gary Birtles..

 

Perhaps you''d all be better off gone fishing[;)]

 

 

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Hmmmm. Hughton can''t change a game? I''m sort of coming to this conclusion. Agianst Fulham we made a game changer.... and lost. And Chelsea?

 

Wolf comes on, and on 88 minutes is defending in his own penalty area?

 

Hughton can make a sub, and keep what we have, but can he make a change and win a game? Anyone got any examples of this happening?  

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Well we''ve won 5 points from losing positions which puts us in the top half of the league table for that particular stat. Depends if you want to credit that to Hughton.

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well we''ve won 5 points from losing positions which puts us in the top half of the league table for that particular stat. Depends if you want to credit that to Hughton.

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Have we? I didn'' know that . Which games were they? I''m guessing West Ham (not sure I would give that "game changing" credit.)

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[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well we''ve won 5 points from losing positions which puts us in the top half of the league table for that particular stat. Depends if you want to credit that to Hughton.

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Have we? I didn'' know that . Which games were they? I''m guessing West Ham (not sure I would give that "game changing" credit.)

[/quote]

 

That''s what I thought[;)]

 

The others were Everton and Swansea.

 

As I already said we have scored more goals 61-90 than 1-60. But you can probably make a case for that having nothing to do with Hoots either...

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well we''ve won 5 points from losing positions which puts us in the top half of the league table for that particular stat. Depends if you want to credit that to Hughton.

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Have we? I didn'' know that . Which games were they? I''m guessing West Ham (not sure I would give that "game changing" credit.)

[/quote]

 

That''s what I thought[;)]

 

The others were Everton and Swansea.

 

As I already said we have scored more goals 61-90 than 1-60. But you can probably make a case for that having nothing to do with Hoots either...

 

 

[/quote]

 

Thanks Nutty. I could have looked that up myself but I''ve had a few falling down waters for lunch. The Beard collection of programmes and reference books are in the garage and frankly I couldn''t be @rsed!

 

Haing looked at your relpy, for which I am grateful, I''m going to stick to my opinion that CH hasnt got many examples of game changing substitutions to his credit. You could argue that not changing anything is to his credit , but that too much for my brain. This isnt anti CH, becuase I''m not, it''s just how i see it. But I havent missed a home game this year (only two aways to be honest) and this is where I am at.

 

I''m talking about games, where we are losing or drawing, and CH makes a sub, and changes the dynamic of the game , and the scoreline.  

 

Actually I thought we did well yesterday, and am not overly concerned about losing to Man Utd at home 1.0. It was the Fulham game and my fears for the Palarse game that lead me to my current wobbly opinion. We have a bloody tough run coming up.

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Fair enough. But I think each individual game is different and the broad brush approach (not neccessarily you) is ridiculous. If you want to criticise Hughton for being unable to change a game then the most obvious case was at Hull. I think the changes made yesterday, putting fresh legs on for a tiring Snoddy, was spot on. Too many people post with a ready made agenda without thinking it through.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Fair enough. But I think each individual game is different and the broad brush approach (not neccessarily you) is ridiculous. If you want to criticise Hughton for being unable to change a game then the most obvious case was at Hull. I think the changes made yesterday, putting fresh legs on for a tiring Snoddy, was spot on. Too many people post with a ready made agenda without thinking it through.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Nutty I''m much too simple to have an agenda. I say what I see. As I have said several times I believe that this division sees us on a knife edge for most games and moments decide them. Missed pens, hit posts, great saves, deflections , all make their mark. We have a style of play which I think emphasises this. We sit on a lead nailing two midfield players in front of the back four. When Redmond goes forward Snoddy is very cautious. Or Pilks or whoever is on the other wing. CH doesnt like to commit . Nothing wrong with that if we win more that we lose. So far, as we both said, 5/10 for me.   

 

 

PS my typing is cr@p.

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[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Fair enough. But I think each individual game is different and the broad brush approach (not neccessarily you) is ridiculous. If you want to criticise Hughton for being unable to change a game then the most obvious case was at Hull. I think the changes made yesterday, putting fresh legs on for a tiring Snoddy, was spot on. Too many people post with a ready made agenda without thinking it through.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Nutty I''m much too simple to have an agenda. I say what I see. As I have said several times I believe that this division sees us on a knife edge for most games and moments decide them. Missed pens, hit posts, great saves, deflections , all make their mark. We have a style of play which I think emphasises this. We sit on a lead nailing two midfield players in front of the back four. When Redmond goes forward Snoddy is very cautious. Or Pilks or whoever is on the other wing. CH doesnt like to commit . Nothing wrong with that if we win more that we lose. So far, as we both said, 5/10 for me.   

 

 

PS my typing is cr@p.

[/quote]

 

I didn''t say you did have an agenda. I enjoy discussing with you but there''s no need to be so defensive.

 

As for the stat.. I reckon if we''d had Hooper and RVW fit together for long we''d have had a sub score this season. If it''s important just start every game with Hooper on the bench[;)]

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Fair enough. But I think each individual game is different and the broad brush approach (not neccessarily you) is ridiculous. If you want to criticise Hughton for being unable to change a game then the most obvious case was at Hull. I think the changes made yesterday, putting fresh legs on for a tiring Snoddy, was spot on. Too many people post with a ready made agenda without thinking it through.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Nutty I''m much too simple to have an agenda. I say what I see. As I have said several times I believe that this division sees us on a knife edge for most games and moments decide them. Missed pens, hit posts, great saves, deflections , all make their mark. We have a style of play which I think emphasises this. We sit on a lead nailing two midfield players in front of the back four. When Redmond goes forward Snoddy is very cautious. Or Pilks or whoever is on the other wing. CH doesnt like to commit . Nothing wrong with that if we win more that we lose. So far, as we both said, 5/10 for me.   

 

 

PS my typing is cr@p.

[/quote]

 

I didn''t say you did have an agenda. I enjoy discussing with you but there''s no need to be so defensive.

 

As for the stat.. I reckon if we''d had Hooper and RVW fit together for long we''d have had a sub score this season. If it''s important just start every game with Hooper on the bench[;)]

 

 

[/quote]

 

Ah yes. Hooper and RVW fit for 10 games. That would be worth the season ticket I have no doubt. Chuck Fer into that (just behind) and even I might get a tad excited!  [;)]

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Not sure I like this sudden positivity GPB

5/10 for Hoots? Must be consuming too much falling down fluid or have I misunderstood your musings?

The spectre of a Hooper/RVW partnership was barely suggested by the almighty one at the beginning of the season so I wouldn''t get too excited about that.

Strange timings and selection of subs, team selections - now that is interesting.

Credit is due that yesterday was a huge improvement but our last two games have been pointless. The dire Fulham performance was compounded by their result yesterday of course.

I''m a simple fellow bereft of coaching badges but I just want Bowkett and McNally to ''man up''

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Afternoon Bury. And a fine sunny day it is here in St Edmundsbury.

 

My musings are that CH is yet to prove himself at game changing decisions which is what this thread is about. I have pondered this since I departed the train in Disslehampstead and believe that our "we keep what we have" approach is what he is better at. As you know i didnt like the snoddy change against Full Of Ham (as indeed was I in this season of pork consumption) and this reminded me of the changes against Chelsea which I was excited about until they scored with one solitary defender left on the half way line.  I only like radical change if it works. But then again I''m not on a 3 year , £3 million contract.

 

I have little confidence in our coaches. When RVW visited Colney for the first time I doubt he was in awe of our assistant Failed Scottish Manager and That Bloke From Bristol Rovers . And I doubt if he is now.

 

CH with new/ additional coaching staff? I think that might be worth a look. I did award CH a 5/10 before the Fulham game. as we are 3 pts of relegation that might now be a 4.

 

That said we were undone by a run of the ball, a strong pen shout we didnt get and a string of "big club" decisions by Dowd so as a one off I''m not too upset. The Fulham game is what I''m most fed up about.

 

Lose to Palarse and things will look a whole lot less rosy.

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End of reasonable discussion then. or is it?

 

Why would RVW have little confidence in our coaches? What can you tell me to make me believe that''s true? See I don''t know how good/bad they are. Even if I was privvy to the training I doubt I''d be in a position to make a judgement. Sometimes I wonder about appointments based on my preconcieved ideas. Like the guy from Watford being England''s coach. I thought WTF is that all about? Then I realised I''d missed my own tenure as England''s manager.

 

I''ve now several times heard Mcnally''s mantra about every part of the club being "best in class" and driving to constantly improve. I''ve heard him say the football management team are best in class. Can we have faith in both McNally and Bowkett to know. Because I have no doubt they''ll make the change if they think the appointments are wrong. I have little choice but to go with their informed opinions unless you can tell me something from my unknowns.

 

 

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To change a game you need choice for substitutes. Midfield is where the substitutions are usually most effective and we''ve been suffering injuries there for most of the season, usually to our key ones, i.e. E Bennett, Tettey, Pilks, Howson. All of those would be starting 11 at the moment if fit.

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Stat which may or may not show a lack of game-changing ability from Hughton. You can''t really deride anything from it. Well you can. But it''d still be an opinion and not fact.

I''d like to think, with either Hooper or RVW on the bench most games, that this stat would eradicate itself sooner rather than later.

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End of reasonable discussion then. or is it?

 

Why would

RVW have little confidence in our coaches? What can you tell me to make

me believe that''s true? See I don''t know how good/bad they are. Even if

I was privvy to the training I doubt I''d be in a position to make a

judgement. Sometimes I wonder about appointments based on

my preconcieved ideas. Like the guy from Watford being England''s coach.

I thought WTF is that all about? Then I realised I''d missed my own

tenure as England''s manager.

 

I''ve now several times heard

Mcnally''s mantra about every part of the club being "best in class" and

driving to constantly improve. I''ve heard him say the football

management team are best in class. Can we have faith in both McNally

and Bowkett to know. Because I have no doubt they''ll make the change if

they think the appointments are wrong. I have little choice but to go

with their informed opinions unless you can tell me something from my

unknowns.

 Very good answer Nigel, & a very suitable post to too many discussions on this board

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