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Drazen Muzinic

Have you accepted reality yet?

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I don''t normally start threads on here or show my hand regarding whether happy clapping or pant wetting is my thing but today tipped me over the edge.

Once again, after a match this messageboard throws up the usual mix of threads that tell us City are either an embarrassment and Hughton has to go or we''ve picked up a point on the road and we''ll be fine.

All teams in the bottom half have now played 20 matches and the reality is we are 15th and, dependent upon whether your glass is half empty or half full, 3 points from the relegation places or 3 points from Hull in 10th.

So, does the vitriol/reasoning on here boil down to one thing - what our weight of expectation is?

It seems to me that those of us who have accepted that we have hit our glass ceiling after a period of exciting and unprecedented success under Lambert are more comfortable with our performances and results. They also seem to be those posters who are a little bit ''longer in the tooth''.

There are those however who will expect us to win handsomely against every team deemed as inferior and start pushing on towards the top six and regular cup wins and European competition.

Reality is starting to bite hard now and the style of football and results we achieve will now be largely mundane and disappointing. Just look at the sum total of our achievements for the past 111 years...there ain''t much to show for our efforts and, quite rightly we still celebrate and hold in high regard those successes.

Don''t get me wrong, I am not one of the ''Just happy to be in the Prem'' supporters but, I feel I have now accepted that we have to balance what we expect to achieve with what we are really capable of.

 When I was a kid, our highest league finish was 10th until a golden period at the end of the 80s/beginning of the 90s. During this period, football was on the bones of it''s ar5e, rife with hooliganism, racism and existing on half empty grounds every week. Since the advent of the Premier League there have been billions of pounds spent by the rich clubs to create a monopoly on the silverware. Clubs of our size and demographic have not had a look in or any sustained period of league success and nor are they likely to unless the bubble bursts again.

The quicker now the penny drops for those of us who haven''t accepted the reality of the clubs place in the football hierarchy, the quicker we can all support the team together and celebrate the victories when they come and maybe even a cup run or trophy might be a possibility.

And breathe.

 

 

 

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Never mind......season ticket renewal time shortly and the disgruntled and the utter despairing can decide whether the wallet of disposable income is to be unlocked to fund another season of the football that we are likely to witness in whatever league we find ourselves in next season.....

 

 

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So we shouldn''t have any expectation to win?

We are in a tough league but if we want to carry on being in this league there are certain teams that you target to get your wins against.

Crystal Palace was one of those games. As was Fulham.

One year on from an extremely poor performance away at west ham, things haven''t improved. Those type of performances are now the norm.

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I am astounded by the defeatist losers who post on this site .... usually taking the high and mighty view of any other posters who dare to think we should try to win let alone improve !!

pathetic ....worse than the manager ....you know who you are .

We are fu*king terrible under Clueless ,,with a decent squad ...do you really believe this is what we should SETTLE for ??

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[quote user="Barry the boy"]So we shouldn''t have any expectation to win?

We are in a tough league but if we want to carry on being in this league there are certain teams that you target to get your wins against.

Crystal Palace was one of those games. As was Fulham.

One year on from an extremely poor performance away at west ham, things haven''t improved. Those type of performances are now the norm.[/quote]

 

I agree Barry there are games on paper you would ''expect'' to win but the reality is you won''t always win those games - that''s what keeps it interesting.

 

At the turn of the year in my eyes we are 3 points from 10th place and changing the manager and criticising the team isn''t going to help us win all of those games we feel we should.

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You should post on here more often Drazen. Well said sir.

Barclay.. I suggest you read the OP again, take a step back, take a deep breath and think about our situation. We''re in the Premier League now, not League 1. This is not defeatism, this is reality.

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Well Said DM, i was actually thinking of starting a thread along the lines of ''everything is not black and white in green and yellow'' ...with exactly the same points. We aint dead yet, and yep, its gonna be tough , but i, too, think we''ll survive.

Would i like more wins? yes, of course...and in style too please.

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]I am astounded by the defeatist losers who post on this site .... usually taking the high and mighty view of any other posters who dare to think we should try to win let alone improve !!

pathetic ....worse than the manager ....you know who you are .

We are fu*king terrible under Clueless ,,with a decent squad ...do you really believe this is what we should SETTLE for ??[/quote]We all want to improve bs48/49, but us "defeatist losers" (who are nothing of the kind) are taking a realistic approach.   You are taking a biased emotional approach,  failing to see good things and only seeing bad.  I know which approach I prefer.

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I accept the reality that the highest we can realistically hope to finish is 8th or 9th in this league. I accept that entirely. However you should always strive to be the best you can otherwise what is the point of the club being a football club? My gripe with the current management is that I don''t believe that they get the best out of our squad and I don''t believe we are doing the best we can due to their tactics, mindset and motivational abilities. We simply are not playing well enough, often enough. That''s why they should go.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]I accept the reality that the highest we can realistically hope to finish is 8th or 9th in this league. I accept that entirely. However you should always strive to be the best you can otherwise what is the point of the club being a football club? My gripe with the current management is that I don''t believe that they get the best out of our squad and I don''t believe we are doing the best we can due to their tactics, mindset and motivational abilities. We simply are not playing well enough, often enough. That''s why they should go.[/quote]

But what about injuries?   Johnson is playing every match now, but only because Tettey and Howson are injured.  His passing is not up to scratch. Snodgrass plays every week, even when not on top form, because of injuries.   Pilkington and Redmond (who is having to play more than Hughton would probably like) are maybe are two best wide men, but then when Bennett is fit, he should be in there too.  How you can expect the team to play at its best while the imponderables that there are in football - like injuries - like the way other teams are progressing too - like Fer and RVW still coming to terms with the premiership - I don''t know.   Consistency and confidence are the two key areas.   I thought that despite deficiencies today, we looked strong enough to hold on to the point, maybe even have won today.   Its a long season, but what we have to have is patience.   Its a hard thing for some people to accept but patience is what is needed.  Its unpopular, but its true.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]I accept the reality that the highest we can realistically hope to finish is 8th or 9th in this league. I accept that entirely. However you should always strive to be the best you can otherwise what is the point of the club being a football club? My gripe with the current management is that I don''t believe that they get the best out of our squad and I don''t believe we are doing the best we can due to their tactics, mindset and motivational abilities. We simply are not playing well enough, often enough. That''s why they should go.[/quote]Nobody would argue with that by why do you think anyone else would do better. How do we know they aren''t getting the best out of the squad, perhaps we are overating the squad. Yes they look better on paper but I can''t say I''ve noticed it on the pitch.Perhaps you would feel better Jim, if you worried more about the points than the style. I''d rather take points from a load of old dross than nothing from a good display. But each to their own.We will see how people really feel when the season ticket renewals come out. My bet is that the style won''t make a bit of difference CR will still be full.

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I agree with alot of the points the OP makes. But I fail to see why the reality of this situation can only be achieved by this style of football and type of management. The fear factor of getting relegated should not override actually trying to play football in the right way, the club has done a great job clearing the debts but there is one certainty "we will be relegated again in the future at some point", so at least while were in this league I''d prefer the style of football we can take some heart from.

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Great opening post - rational and logical.

However, for me, I honestly think we can hope for more than being a relegation dog fight team which we have always been under Hughton.

We haven''t scored more than one in 78% of league games with him in charge and currently sit 5 points behind where we were this time last season and the season before.

I would never boo Hughton or his team and I would love him to be a real success but, despite the quality brought in, I don''t think we are equal to or greater then the sum of our parts and that''s why I would like to see a change of manager.

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Heres a question, the phrases "Not playing to our potential" and "Hughton isn''t getting the best out of players" are both often bandied around.How do people measure this exactly?Bearing in mind that the group of players are very different to the group that Lambert had, so it can''t be that.Is Bradley Johnson playing better than he did at Leeds, is Jonny Howson? Well they must be as they are playing in a league higher, so they must be fulfilling their potential.And just because Ricky cost 8 million odd, if he doesn''t knock in 20 goals in a season has Hughton not got the best out of him? Is he a flop already? Or are people getting confused with what Premiership players cost?Could people perhaps accept that what we have played for players doesn''t guarantee an amazing performance week in, week out?As a few threads have said, I think some of you need a bit of a reality check.

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Your original post made me go and look for this. Says it all I think:

When routine bites hard,

And ambitions are low.

And resentment rides high,

But emotions won''t grow.

And we''re changing our ways,

Taking different roads.

Love, love will tear us apart again.

Love, love will tear us apart again.

Songwriters: CURTIS, IAN KEVIN / HOOK, PETER / MORRIS, STEPHEN PAUL DAVID / SUMNER, BERNARD

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[quote user="city4eva"]whoops that didn''t work[/quote]

It worked for me. Gave me a shock and my eyes completely re-focused and I can see again. Thank you.

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[quote user="morty"]Heres a question, the phrases "Not playing to our potential" and "Hughton isn''t getting the best out of players" are both often bandied around.How do people measure this exactly?Bearing in mind that the group of players are very different to the group that Lambert had, so it can''t be that.Is Bradley Johnson playing better than he did at Leeds, is Jonny Howson? Well they must be as they are playing in a league higher, so they must be fulfilling their potential.And just because Ricky cost 8 million odd, if he doesn''t knock in 20 goals in a season has Hughton not got the best out of him? Is he a flop already? Or are people getting confused with what Premiership players cost?Could people perhaps accept that what we have played for players doesn''t guarantee an amazing performance week in, week out?As a few threads have said, I think some of you need a bit of a reality check.[/quote]I know how I measure this. By way of the three key indicators. And - I wasn''t going to but - since you mention Lambert this is how they measure up:Points per game:Lambert 2011-12 = 1.236; Hughton 2012-13 = 1.157; Hughton 2013-14 = 1.0.Goals scored per game:Lambert 2011-12 = 1.368; Hughton 2012-13 = 1.0789; Hughton 2013-14 = 0.85.Goals conceded per game:Lambert 2011-12 = 1.736; Hughton 2012-13 = 1.526; Hughton 2013-14 = 1.65.The only improvement from Lambert (for whom I carry no candle) is is Goals Conceded, but that is more than balanced out by the falling away in Goals Scored since then. Lambert ended up with a Goal Difference of -14, whereas Hughton last season had a GD of -17 and is heading for a GD of around the -30 mark. Apart from that, all the statistics show a regression from 2011-12 to 2012-13, and - which is what matters - a regression from 2012-13 to the current season. And this in a season when we were the ninth highest net summer spenders in Europe. It is not that we are not doing better. It is that we are doing worse. That is why the argument that Hughton is this season failing to get the best out of players has a factual basis.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"]Heres a question, the phrases "Not playing to our potential" and "Hughton isn''t getting the best out of players" are both often bandied around.How do people measure this exactly?Bearing in mind that the group of players are very different to the group that Lambert had, so it can''t be that.Is Bradley Johnson playing better than he did at Leeds, is Jonny Howson? Well they must be as they are playing in a league higher, so they must be fulfilling their potential.And just because Ricky cost 8 million odd, if he doesn''t knock in 20 goals in a season has Hughton not got the best out of him? Is he a flop already? Or are people getting confused with what Premiership players cost?Could people perhaps accept that what we have played for players doesn''t guarantee an amazing performance week in, week out?As a few threads have said, I think some of you need a bit of a reality check.[/quote]I know how I measure this. By way of the three key indicators. And - I wasn''t going to but - since you mention Lambert this is how they measure up:Points per game:Lambert 2011-12 = 1.236; Hughton 2012-13 = 1.157; Hughton 2013-14 = 1.0.Goals scored per game:Lambert 2011-12 = 1.368; Hughton 2012-13 = 1.0789; Hughton 2013-14 = 0.85.Goals conceded per game:Lambert 2011-12 = 1.736; Hughton 2012-13 = 1.526; Hughton 2013-14 = 1.65.The only improvement from Lambert (for whom I carry no candle) is is Goals Conceded, but that is more than balanced out by the falling away in Goals Scored since then. Lambert ended up with a Goal Difference of -14, whereas Hughton last season had a GD of -17 and is heading for a GD of around the -30 mark. Apart from that, all the statistics show a regression from 2011-12 to 2012-13, and - which is what matters - a regression from 2012-13 to the current season. And this in a season when we were the ninth highest net summer spenders in Europe. It is not that we are not doing better. It is that we are doing worse. That is why the argument that Hughton is this season failing to get the best out of players has a factual basis.[/quote]But, on the whole, different players to the ones used by Lambert.I still don''t see how you can truly quantify (other than the collective results) what level of performance a manager is getting out of individual players.Perhaps the players and the team are actually where they deserve to be, and I don''t need to tell you that money doesn''t guarantee success.You may call it regression, it could also be a natural dip, after a few seasons of totally punching above our weight. It was always going to level out.

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[quote user="morty"]But, on the whole, different players to the ones used by Lambert.I still don''t see how you can truly quantify (other than the collective results) what level of performance a manager is getting out of individual players.Perhaps the players and the team are actually where they deserve to be, and I don''t need to tell you that money doesn''t guarantee success.You may call it regression, it could also be a natural dip, after a few seasons of totally punching above our weight. It was always going to level out.[/quote]You asked for a quantification of performance. I gave you the only one that makes any sense in an objective way. And I call it regression because that is what the numbers show. By all means decide you don''t like the answer.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"]But, on the whole, different players to the ones used by Lambert.I still don''t see how you can truly quantify (other than the collective results) what level of performance a manager is getting out of individual players.Perhaps the players and the team are actually where they deserve to be, and I don''t need to tell you that money doesn''t guarantee success.You may call it regression, it could also be a natural dip, after a few seasons of totally punching above our weight. It was always going to level out.[/quote]You asked for a quantification of performance. I gave you the only one that makes any sense in an objective way. And I call it regression because that is what the numbers show. By all means decide you don''t like the answer.[/quote]I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, more making the point that the phrase about not getting the best out of players is bandied around by a lot of people, who really can''t quantify it.Collectively, as a club, we''re clearly not quite where we would all like us to be, but I find the concept that the current manager is stifling abilities of individual players, a wee bit silly.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I accept the reality that the highest we can realistically hope to finish is 8th or 9th in this league. I accept that entirely. However you should always strive to be the best you can otherwise what is the point of the club being a football club? My gripe with the current management is that I don''t believe that they get the best out of our squad and I don''t believe we are doing the best we can due to their tactics, mindset and motivational abilities. We simply are not playing well enough, often enough. That''s why they should go.[/quote]Nobody would argue with that by why do you think anyone else would do better. How do we know they aren''t getting the best out of the squad, perhaps we are overating the squad. Yes they look better on paper but I can''t say I''ve noticed it on the pitch.Perhaps you would feel better Jim, if you worried more about the points than the style. I''d rather take points from a load of old dross than nothing from a good display. But each to their own.We will see how people really feel when the season ticket renewals come out. My bet is that the style won''t make a bit of difference CR will still be full.[/quote]

It probably will still be full Ricardo but that should not be taken as an endorsement of Hughton. I detest his management but will renew because that''s what football fans do and I know if I didn''t I would struggle to get tickets for certain games.

Maybe you are right re concentrating on the points but the fact is even if one does that its too close for comfort and he is underperforming. That said I don''t think I could ever do that entirely and not should anyone. We used to take great pride in the quality of our football and the reputation of our club as a difficult team to play against and whilst I appreciate those days are a long time ago it is still painful to witness the "ambition free" (guardians words not mine) approach to some games now.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I accept the reality that the highest we can realistically hope to finish is 8th or 9th in this league. I accept that entirely. However you should always strive to be the best you can otherwise what is the point of the club being a football club? My gripe with the current management is that I don''t believe that they get the best out of our squad and I don''t believe we are doing the best we can due to their tactics, mindset and motivational abilities. We simply are not playing well enough, often enough. That''s why they should go.[/quote]Nobody would argue with that by why do you think anyone else would do better. How do we know they aren''t getting the best out of the squad, perhaps we are overating the squad. Yes they look better on paper but I can''t say I''ve noticed it on the pitch.Perhaps you would feel better Jim, if you worried more about the points than the style. I''d rather take points from a load of old dross than nothing from a good display. But each to their own.We will see how people really feel when the season ticket renewals come out. My bet is that the style won''t make a bit of difference CR will still be full.[/quote]

It probably will still be full Ricardo but that should not be taken as an endorsement of Hughton. I detest his management but will renew because that''s what football fans do and I know if I didn''t I would struggle to get tickets for certain games.

Maybe you are right re concentrating on the points but the fact is even if one does that its too close for comfort and he is underperforming. That said I don''t think I could ever do that entirely and not should anyone. We used to take great pride in the quality of our football and the reputation of our club as a difficult team to play against and whilst I appreciate those days are a long time ago it is still painful to witness the "ambition free" (guardians words not mine) approach to some games now.

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I can accept our position in the league, I can even accept our current points tally. What I find almost impossible to accept is how absolutely unconvincing we have been in almost every match since Hughton took charge.

I am not sure if it is motivation or self belief but we seem to play like we expect to get beaten even when we win. I find it difficult to clearly define my disappointment other than to say I no longer enjoy watching us play anymore, something I have not felt at any time in the last 40 years.

Injuries are a red Herring, all teams have them thankfully we have a decent squad that means we have at no point had to play anyone out of position, Teams like West Ham have not been so lucky.

I wonder what odds you would get on City winning a game by 2 goals or more ?

I don''t think I can even put it down to formation any more even if we play 4-4-2 we play with little attacking conviction.

I have seen much poorer sides in the Prem play with heart and determination that gives the fans hope that better is achievable, I watch us play and cannot believe we are somehow out of the bottom three. Palace Battered us twice and we were hanging on, We never looked like beating Fulham or Sunderland. Where exactly are we going to get the 20 points we need to stay up ?

Perhaps relegation is all we have left to hope for ?

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