Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
a1canary

If you knew he would keep us up, would you still want him gone this season?

Recommended Posts

I am a convert to the dark side this season. But some people on here really need to keep their heads. I suspect many would answer yes to this question, which would kind of prove the point. Sacking him now would be a gamble, that is undeniable. Right now, stability is important, as is the fact that the squad is still clearly playing for the manager. Disrupting that now would be madness unless you absolutely believed that we were going down with the current manager. I don''t think the board think that, and most fans and pundits, although concerned/unimpressed, think we have enough to stay up. If that is the case, a change now would quite simply be an unnecessary gamble.  The time to change would be in May or even, if you were being particularly ruthless, as soon as safety was assured before the end of the season. 

Also, a couple of facts some people should be aware of:

1. Hughton is not incompetent, as his record and reputation clearly show.

2. Hughton WAS the correct appointment.

Number 2 can be stated as fact merely on the basis that he kept us up in the first season after Lambert''s departure, with a squad that was significantly below the current one in terms of quality and depth. Keeping us up last season was the one and only priority and that was achieved. It gave us significant funds and allowed us to clear debts and invest in improving the squad which has also been done successfully.

What has swung it for me this season and is the stand out reason for a change imo is that we are now underachieving. I don''t expect us to overachieve all the time, but we now have a team that doesn''t produce to the sum of it''s parts. We have the best squad we have ever known and i don''t think we would be overachieving if we got a comfortable mid table finish.

So for me, Hughton was the correct appointment but is no longer the right man for the club. I would however make the change at the end of the season or maybe just before. I have a feeling McNally might do just this. Or is that just hopeful and wishful thinking?!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thing is Jim, we could still have a dire season with more drubbings and poor performances and stay up at the end of the season by the odd point or 2 by virtue of a number of 1 nils and 2-1s against teams around us. And it will take an iron will from the board and the staff to keep their heads while we float around barely above/sometimes in the relegation zone. An no-one will be happy with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can accept point 2 he was the best candidate at the time and he achieved what was required by keeping us up last season (even though it was far from pretty)

Point 1 i''m not so sure.

He has no long term experience in the Premier league or indeed at any club and the limited success he has had at any level was based around playing a system around a target man (Carroll , Zigic) yet he comes to Norwich and spends 13M+ on two smaller strikers and doesn''t buy an attacking midfielder despite clearly favouring a 4-5-1 formation.

His reputation is based mainly on what a lovely bloke he is.

I cannot imagine that he would be replaced if he manages to keep us up and after giving him the benefit of the doubt about last season being a transitional period the fact that our performances have been so turgid gives me no reason to hope for more in the future.

So its goodbye for me, give us a man we can all believe in win lose or draw. Truthfully I can''t see it happening and can see us muddling through the rest of the season finishing just above or just below the line and witnessing just more uninspiring performances.

I still can''t believe I actually bought tickets for Saturdays game, I must be completely mad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]I can accept point 2 he was the best candidate at the time and he achieved what was required by keeping us up last season (even though it was far from pretty) Point 1 i''m not so sure. He has no long term experience in the Premier league or indeed at any club and the limited success he has had at any level was based around playing a system around a target man (Carroll , Zigic) yet he comes to Norwich and spends 13M+ on two smaller strikers and doesn''t buy an attacking midfielder despite clearly favouring a 4-5-1 formation. His reputation is based mainly on what a lovely bloke he is. I cannot imagine that he would be replaced if he manages to keep us up and after giving him the benefit of the doubt about last season being a transitional period the fact that our performances have been so turgid gives me no reason to hope for more in the future. So its goodbye for me, give us a man we can all believe in win lose or draw. Truthfully I can''t see it happening and can see us muddling through the rest of the season finishing just above or just below the line and witnessing just more uninspiring performances. I still can''t believe I actually bought tickets for Saturdays game, I must be completely mad.[/quote]

His reputation comes from other managers, coaches and players who have worked with him - it''s just wrong to call him incompentent. He wouldn''t be in a job if he was. Even if his experience in the premier league is limited that doesn''t make him incompetent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the answer to the OP needs to be based on what you ambition/expectation is for Norwich as a club.If you could Guarantee Chris would keep us in the league year in year out, then yes, I would keep him.If you believe that we can build on that and maintain top half finishes, cup runs etc then I am not sure I would. It would be silly to sacrifice safety for the risk a new manager would bring though. I think every team in the bottom half of our league would be saying they have a realistic chance of cup runs and improving on league position though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Norwich Fer Me"]I think the answer to the OP needs to be based on what you ambition/expectation is for Norwich as a club.

If you could Guarantee Chris would keep us in the league year in year out, then yes, I would keep him.

If you believe that we can build on that and maintain top half finishes, cup runs etc then I am not sure I would. It would be silly to sacrifice safety for the risk a new manager would bring though.

I think every team in the bottom half of our league would be saying they have a realistic chance of cup runs and improving on league position though.
[/quote]

Just talking about this season - if you knew he''d keep us up this season, would you still sack him this season. I think - even as an outer - that if anyone answers yes to that, they need their heads read. And i see some already have!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Call me a nutter if you like but:

1) can you honestly see the board sacking him if he keeps us up.

2) Can you honestly see any signs that our style of football will improve with him as manager or indeed imagine that regardless of new signings after a year and a half he has the capability of making us more watchable ?

Sorry his competence or lack of can only be based on his limited experience not whether his peers think he is a decent bloke. I think he may well be a decent coach but struggle to see him as an inspirational manager.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You haven''t actually said if you''d keep him for this season if you knew he''d keep us up. So the jury''s still out on your nuttyness!

As for your other points:

1) Why not? It wouldn''t be so unusual to make a change after a relegation dogfight. Depends i guess on whether we pull off another late surge to finish midtable or if we do it by the skin of our teeth. Given the run in, i''m betting on a less comfortable time than the already quite uncomfortable time we had last season.

2) No, i don''t see signs of improvement - like you, i think we need a change. Just not right now because i think he will keep us up. Just. That''s what is at the heart of the OP. I''m interested to know if i''m the only one who wants to change the manager but not right now - it seems i might be!

What i do see is glimpses of the team we could be but seem unable to become under CH''s guidance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think I''m of a pretty similar stance to you A1.However, even if he does keep us up, if its by the skin of our teeth, then I think the board will act. I think we all need to see at least some progress this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I honestly felt there was any way the board would get rid of him in the summer if he keeps us up but without all round improvement in performance then yes of course only a mad man would turn down guaranteed survival.

I just cannot see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we could be sure, surely most people would hang on to him He is a genuinely nice person and I don''t see much personal animosity.

The problem is that many of us doubt whether he has the personal gifts to make a successful manager at this level. He has made some shrewd signings, the first year on a shoe string. Our doubts are whether he would achieve much next summer, after spending another £25m, or whatever.

We are not too impressed with his managerial team, I suspect, and we question what advice he is getting from them. He is committed to them, as they to him, after so long.

Having seen his teams perform, his tactics and substitutions for a season and a half, I suspect that many are fearful about the remainder of the season. So the question is a little impossible to answer. If we could be sure that he will gain us another year in the Premiership, then.... but we cannot be sure, and after the past few games the doubts have grown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry RTB what on earth is embarrassing about it ?

I thought the whole basis of message boards was debate and his seems like a valid debate regardless of stance on the matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="KeelansGlove"]

His reputation is based mainly on what a lovely bloke he is. [/quote]

That is really damning with faint praise.  His abilities as a coach and footballing man are recognised everywhere in football.   I don''t know where this "nice bloke" stuff comes from.   Lots of people are "nice blokes" in football and everywhere else.    It is just another stick too bash him with - ''he''s "nice" so he can''t be any good'' - kind of attitude.  When I see Hughton, I don''t think of him as a nice bloke.  I see someone who shows respect to everybody, whoever they are.   That is an admirable trait, something some posters on here could try emulating.    He gets  respect because he gives respect.   Now I don''t know what it is about Norwich fans who don''t take to him.   I actually find it quite disturbing.   Ok, the football is not how we would all like it, but we have to accept Hughton is our manager and will be as long as we are working towards staying in the division and succeeding in that.  He succeeded lat season and despite injuries we are still within a spitting distance of 10th place.   So lets leave out the "nice guy" stuff and concentrate on the football, something that Hughton knows plenty about - a lot more than most of us and a lot more than some pundits who latch on to the stuff that is put around on twitter etc etc.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Sorry RTB what on earth is embarrassing about it ? I thought the whole basis of message boards was debate and his seems like a valid debate regardless of stance on the matter.[/quote]

Like Keelan, i''m not sure i follow your comment RTB. Can you explain? Do you want me to explain in more detail what i am getting at by asking the question?

 

Incidentally LDC, we might not agree on whether to keep the manager on, but i''m 100% with you on the nice guy thing. That does wind me up - totally irrelevant!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I''m sure he will keep us up (OK hope more than sure), not sure I want to keep him going into next season even if we do stay up!

 

I think we need to take a leaf out of other teams and replace a negative manager to progress our club, Southampton & Newcastle have done this recently and both reaping benefit from the change! Why do most clubs wait to change manager until they are in deep trouble?

 

I''m not sure about this nice guy tag, but his management style is not one I like from the past two seasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, let me ''Double Dare'' the question back to you. If changing manager was no threat to our Premier League survival, but brought us more exciting/effective football, would you welcome the change?

 

Whilst I accept that changing manager is a gamble, some gambles pay off. There is probably about as much risk of relegation in staying with the manager as there is changing the manager. We might get relegated with Hughton. We might get relegated with a new manager. We were in real relegation trouble last season. We''re still there now. A change could be boom or bust, but Im not sure I would class sticking with Hughton as a ''safer'' option

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Indy"]

I''m sure he will keep us up (OK hope more than sure), not sure I want to keep him going into next season even if we do stay up!

 

I think we need to take a leaf out of other teams and replace a negative manager to progress our club, Southampton & Newcastle have done this recently and both reaping benefit from the change! Why do most clubs wait to change manager until they are in deep trouble?

 

I''m not sure about this nice guy tag, but his management style is not one I like from the past two seasons.

[/quote]Did they? Pardew has been at Newcastle for over 3 years and the first two were absolutely appalling by their standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]

Ok, let me ''Double Dare'' the question back to you. If changing manager was no threat to our Premier League survival, but brought us more exciting/effective football, would you welcome the change?

Whilst I accept that changing manager is a gamble, some gambles pay off. There is probably about as much risk of relegation in staying with the manager as there is changing the manager. We might get relegated with Hughton. We might get relegated with a new manager. We were in real relegation trouble last season. We''re still there now. A change could be boom or bust, but Im not sure I would class sticking with Hughton as a ''safer'' option

[/quote]

Yes, in that scenario, i would change. Medium term i would change too. But i think it''s important to differentiate between what is best for the club right now (or this season), and what is best for the club next season and beyond.

My preference would be to hang fire this season and make a change at the end.

The other thing i''m trying to find out in this post is whether people think we''ll stay up this year AND want to change the manager right now.  My point being that if we are going to stay up this season, it would be irrational and a dangerous gamble to change now, much better do it once we are safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes because I think we need a manager to take us further by being more attack minded. I dont think Chris Hughton can take us any further, I just hope we stay up, at the moment I am not confident of that, unless there is a dramatic turn around.?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did they? Pardew has been at Newcastle for over 3 years and the first two were absolutely appalling by their standards.

As you are so quick to pick up on others factual inaccuracies its only fair you are picked up on yours.

2010-11 the season he took over from Hughton they finished 12th

2011-12 they finished 5th and he won the LMA manager of the year award.

Last season a poor 16th place finish with Europa league taking its toll possibly?

This season currently 8th.

I would say they made the correct call sacking Hughton and employing Pardew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="JF"]Did they? Pardew has been at Newcastle for over 3 years and the first two were absolutely appalling by their standards.

As you are so quick to pick up on others factual inaccuracies its only fair you are picked up on yours.

2010-11 the season he took over from Hughton they finished 12th

2011-12 they finished 5th and he won the LMA manager of the year award.

Last season a poor 16th place finish with Europa league taking its toll possibly?

This season currently 8th.

I would say they made the correct call sacking Hughton and employing Pardew.[/quote] I agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="lake district canary"]Ok, the football is not how we would all like it...So lets leave out the "nice guy" stuff and concentrate on the football[/quote]This in a nutshell is the problem LDC.I don''t think virtually any of us have an issue with Hughton as an individual, either in the way he presents himself and the club, or the manner in which he deals with others in the game.The problem is the apalling quality of football being served up each week...It would be bad enough if we were playing horrible, negative football and getting the results at the end, but when we''re playing god awful football at times (such as horribly isolating our strikers and looking ineffective in midfield) and losing/drawing on the back of it - it becomes a bit too much to swallow.He did his job last season, and those of us who weren''t sure about his long term position were told that the football would be much better this season due to him being able to bring in the players he wanted rather than using Lambert''s side - he''s had this chance, brought in some good players, and is now doing his best to make them - and us, look shit...Frankly, I don''t give a damn about the ''nice guy'' comments, I''d simply rather be watching a team that tries to play good, attacking, passing football (like we have been traditionally known for), instead of the dross we''re seeing FAR too often under Hughton. Regardless of his professionalism and personality, the football HAS to come first, and at the minute the football simply is NOT good enough...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="JF"]Did they? Pardew has been at Newcastle for over 3 years and the first two were absolutely appalling by their standards.

As you are so quick to pick up on others factual inaccuracies its only fair you are picked up on yours.

2010-11 the season he took over from Hughton they finished 12th

2011-12 they finished 5th and he won the LMA manager of the year award.

Last season a poor 16th place finish with Europa league taking its toll possibly?

This season currently 8th.

I would say they made the correct call sacking Hughton and employing Pardew.[/quote]

You are correct JF.Hughton was sacked in December when they were 11th, with Pardew they finished 12thThe next year was a good''un the finished 5 from the top but last year was a bad''un and they finished 5 from the bottom, so all rather mixed evidence.You could also argue that they stuck with him through the bad times

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...