Are you not entertained?

[Indy_Bones 441]

So the short version GP, is that you don''t think that Hughton is negative - simply that he and his coaching staff are inept.Have to say that I agree to a large extent...

[Highland Canary 76]

A very measured post by ''?''. Certainly, my experience of discussions at away grounds is concern about a lack of entertainment, or an apparent lack of willingness to try to go for the victory. It''s this latter approach that, in my minority view, might prove to be so costly.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

We endeavour to retain possession when we have it. We do not encourage our isolated strikers to embark on lonely low-probability chasing of defenders. This tactic must be implemented in organised fashion en masse or not at all.

Thus we revert to a repeatable shape and fixed in-game positions, which is the sign of clear coaching, not the negative absence of it. This in turn means that when we don''t have the ball we often allow the opposition possession of the ball in non-threatening areas. This may negatively influence the stats, but it is not an accident and we certainly endeavour to retain it constructively ourselves even we to have it.

We are trying to play the game in a considered, intelligent way. Whether we succeed or not is an entirely different question. I do not find it negative, rather I find it inevitable as all clubs move towards a more structured game.

English football and the Premier League has been bought and sold on chaos and error, which makes for thrills-and-spills entertainment, but cannot survive in a top table world of massive finance where the absence of premier league money can send major businesses into a nether-world decline. It is unsurprising then that such businesses seek to control the controllable and endeavour to maximise their odds -and comfort themselves that they have done all they could - by playing in a structured, professional business-like way where retained membership of the club is the overriding and (almost) only goal.

It is therefore harder to "entertain", as less is happening on the pitch. This has been the norm in Italian football for as long as i can remember. I have often been given second half instructions (say when leading by a fine-margin goal) to " give them nothing to write about second half". Games are then decided by moments of magic or (more likely) set pieces.

I am not an apologist for Chris Hughton. It is my observation that Manager''s are often unduly influenced tactically by the position that they played in. We over-protect and under-employ our full backs. In the modern game these players can and should have a huge bearing on the creation of attacking intent, particularly when the defensive shield position (in a three) is played correctly. We also lack the pace to maximise effectively our chances of success.

Investment theory dictates that fans also over-value their own players. We have an improving pool of flawed players that mostly would not play in teams above us. Those that could have schisms that see them playing for us instead. Bassong loses concentration, Fer does not yet have stamina to impose himself for sustained periods, Redmond is tactically callow and has a tic whereby he pauses for half a second upon receiving the ball, Howson perhaps lacks the outside-the-club recognition to liberate his abilities, Ruddy is mentally over-promoted due to the dearth of English Goalkeeping talent, RVW is talented though has played in leagues where disparity exists top to bottom, which brings the confidence of soft goals.

Other clubs have better players than we do, so when all clubs play the odds, EV dictates that we will often lose, which influences the view of the entertainment on offer.

Ron''s methodology of watching old games is an excellent one and very telling, with the cold hand of hindsight diluting rose-tinted memories. Find games under recent eras (Roeder, Worthington, et al) and recall how we wished for teams that would "just give 100%". I see no lack of effort now. I see a team that has a reputation for good performances following disappointments, a resilience, a clear pattern of play.

And all this at the top table.

Is that not entertaining enough anymore?

Sent from my iPhone

[ron obvious 1,502]

PMgh, that is an incredible post. Restores my faith in the existence of sane, rational, objective supporters. I applaud you.

[ron obvious 1,502]

Whoops, sorry, forgot

BINNER!!!

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]We endeavour to retain possession when we have it. We do not encourage our isolated strikers to embark on lonely low-probability chasing of defenders. This tactic must be implemented in organised fashion en masse or not at all.

Thus we revert to a repeatable shape and fixed in-game positions, which is the sign of clear coaching, not the negative absence of it. This in turn means that when we don''t have the ball we often allow the opposition possession of the ball in non-threatening areas. This may negatively influence the stats, but it is not an accident and we certainly endeavour to retain it constructively ourselves even we to have it.

We are trying to play the game in a considered, intelligent way. Whether we succeed or not is an entirely different question. I do not find it negative, rather I find it inevitable as all clubs move towards a more structured game.

English football and the Premier League has been bought and sold on chaos and error, which makes for thrills-and-spills entertainment, but cannot survive in a top table world of massive finance where the absence of premier league money can send major businesses into a nether-world decline. It is unsurprising then that such businesses seek to control the controllable and endeavour to maximise their odds -and comfort themselves that they have done all they could - by playing in a structured, professional business-like way where retained membership of the club is the overriding and (almost) only goal.

It is therefore harder to "entertain", as less is happening on the pitch. This has been the norm in Italian football for as long as i can remember. I have often been given second half instructions (say when leading by a fine-margin goal) to " give them nothing to write about second half". Games are then decided by moments of magic or (more likely) set pieces.

I am not an apologist for Chris Hughton. It is my observation that Manager''s are often unduly influenced tactically by the position that they played in. We over-protect and under-employ our full backs. In the modern game these players can and should have a huge bearing on the creation of attacking intent, particularly when the defensive shield position (in a three) is played correctly. We also lack the pace to maximise effectively our chances of success.

Investment theory dictates that fans also over-value their own players. We have an improving pool of flawed players that mostly would not play in teams above us. Those that could have schisms that see them playing for us instead. Bassong loses concentration, Fer does not yet have stamina to impose himself for sustained periods, Redmond is tactically callow and has a tic whereby he pauses for half a second upon receiving the ball, Howson perhaps lacks the outside-the-club recognition to liberate his abilities, Ruddy is mentally over-promoted due to the dearth of English Goalkeeping talent, RVW is talented though has played in leagues where disparity exists top to bottom, which brings the confidence of soft goals.

Other clubs have better players than we do, so when all clubs play the odds, EV dictates that we will often lose, which influences the view of the entertainment on offer.

Ron''s methodology of watching old games is an excellent one and very telling, with the cold hand of hindsight diluting rose-tinted memories. Find games under recent eras (Roeder, Worthington, et al) and recall how we wished for teams that would "just give 100%". I see no lack of effort now. I see a team that has a reputation for good performances following disappointments, a resilience, a clear pattern of play.

And all this at the top table.

Is that not entertaining enough anymore?

Sent from my iPhone[/quote]And that is the point. We are not succeeding. Despite Hughton having been the manager for more than a season and a half, despite him having the coaching staff he wants, despite three transfers windows in which to work, despite the ninth largest net spending in Europe in the summer, despite not having to sell anyone we didn''t want to sell, despite (for example) an entirely new back four available from that of the Lambert era, despite three supposedly Premier League-quality strikers now compared with none last season  despite all those advantages that should have enabled him to implement this utopian Austrian Wunderteam vision, all the key figures show a regression from last season. Far from succeeding, we are doing worse.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]And that is the point. We are not succeeding. Despite Hughton having been the manager for more than a season and a half, despite him having the coaching staff he wants, despite three transfers windows in which to work, despite the ninth largest net spending in Europe in the summer, despite not having to sell anyone we didn''t want to sell, despite (for example) an entirely new back four available from that of the Lambert era, despite three supposedly Premier League-quality strikers now compared with none last season  despite all those advantages that should have enabled him to implement this utopian Austrian Wunderteam vision, all the key figures show a regression from last season. Far from succeeding, we are doing worse.[/quote]He shoots, he scores!

[ron obvious 1,502]

Back of the net!

His own net.

We are succeeding as well as about 10 other teams. The mighty Swansea are a massive one point ahead of us.

How much have we spent over, say, the last 5 seasons compared to other clubs?

He''s doing a massive rebuilding job on a shoestring. Our players all have deficiencies; this codswallop about our squad being now top class really gets on my nerves - how much are most of them worth on the open market? How consistent are they? In such circumstances injuries are crucial, & we''ve had a shedload this year.

I do not believe Hughton is the new Messiah, I believe he''s trying to build something sustainable. I am not at all sure there are managers who would do any better, I am sure there are many who would do worse.

Football does not produce the excitement it once did. Too much money involved, which means a commensurate fear of failure.

Enjoy it for the absorbing tactical battle it has become, shot through with moments of magic, or give up. It''s not going to change any time soon.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="ron obvious"]The mighty Swansea are a massive one point ahead of us.[/quote]Maybe so, but do you see their fans bitching about how crappy the football they are watching each week is...I''d be more than happy to finish mid-low end every single season if we played entertaining football along the way, rather than the guff that we have had to endure since Hughton took over...

[morty 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="ron obvious"]The mighty Swansea are a massive one point ahead of us.[/quote]Maybe so, but do you see their fans bitching about how crappy the football they are watching each week is...I''d be more than happy to finish mid-low end every single season if we played entertaining football along the way, rather than the guff that we have had to endure since Hughton took over...[/quote]

I am sure every team has similar whingers to the ones you see here.

[morty 0]

Oh and great post Parma.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="ron obvious"]Back of the net!

His own net.

We are succeeding as well as about 10 other teams. The mighty Swansea are a massive one point ahead of us.

How much have we spent over, say, the last 5 seasons compared to other clubs?

He''s doing a massive rebuilding job on a shoestring. Our players all have deficiencies; this codswallop about our squad being now top class really gets on my nerves - how much are most of them worth on the open market? How consistent are they? In such circumstances injuries are crucial, & we''ve had a shedload this year.

I do not believe Hughton is the new Messiah, I believe he''s trying to build something sustainable. I am not at all sure there are managers who would do any better, I am sure there are many who would do worse.

Football does not produce the excitement it once did. Too much money involved, which means a commensurate fear of failure.

Enjoy it for the absorbing tactical battle it has become, shot through with moments of magic, or give up. It''s not going to change any time soon.[/quote]I agree - sort of - with that bit, Ron. In the only two games I''ve seen (Cardiff and Man Utd) the opposition managers both made tactical changes at half-time that in the first case probably gained the point Mackay he had settled for and in the second case gained Moyes the three points he wanted. I enjoyed watching those two managers engage in a tactical battle. Although for a battle doesn''t the home general have to take part as well and so something?[:P][:)][;)]

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="ron obvious"]Back of the net!

His own net.

We are succeeding as well as about 10 other teams. The mighty Swansea are a massive one point ahead of us.

How much have we spent over, say, the last 5 seasons compared to other clubs?

He''s doing a massive rebuilding job on a shoestring. Our players all have deficiencies; this codswallop about our squad being now top class really gets on my nerves - how much are most of them worth on the open market? How consistent are they? In such circumstances injuries are crucial, & we''ve had a shedload this year.

I do not believe Hughton is the new Messiah, I believe he''s trying to build something sustainable. I am not at all sure there are managers who would do any better, I am sure there are many who would do worse.

Football does not produce the excitement it once did. Too much money involved, which means a commensurate fear of failure.

Enjoy it for the absorbing tactical battle it has become, shot through with moments of magic, or give up. It''s not going to change any time soon.[/quote]I agree - sort of - with that bit, Ron. In the only two games I''ve seen (Cardiff and Man Utd) the opposition managers both made tactical changes at half-time that in the first case probably gained the point Mackay he had settled for and in the second case gained Moyes the three points he wanted. I enjoyed watching those two managers engage in a tactical battle. Although for a battle doesn''t the home general have to take part as well and so something?[:P][:)][;)][/quote]

...and DO something...

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="ron obvious"]

I do not believe Hughton is the new Messiah, I believe he''s trying to build something sustainable. I am not at all sure there are managers who would do any better, I am sure there are many who would do worse.

Football does not produce the excitement it once did. Too much money involved, which means a commensurate fear of failure.

Enjoy it for the absorbing tactical battle it has become, shot through with moments of magic, or give up. It''s not going to change any time soon.[/quote]

Parma and Ron have it right.  If we want to do more than just stay in this division, we have to build in a solid and reliable and modern way of playing the game.  Simply turning up and having a go will just see us back in the championship and we will always be that yo yo club.   The board, McNally Hughton and co have more ambition for us - and we should be pleased about that, even if the journey is a little bit rough and the football not yet fully evolved.  

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="ron obvious"]

I do not believe Hughton is the new Messiah, I believe he''s trying to build something sustainable. I am not at all sure there are managers who would do any better, I am sure there are many who would do worse.

Football does not produce the excitement it once did. Too much money involved, which means a commensurate fear of failure.

Enjoy it for the absorbing tactical battle it has become, shot through with moments of magic, or give up. It''s not going to change any time soon.[/quote]

Parma and Ron have it right.  If we want to do more than just stay in this division, we have to build in a solid and reliable and modern way of playing the game.  Simply turning up and having a go will just see us back in the championship and we will always be that yo yo club.   The board, McNally Hughton and co have more ambition for us - and we should be pleased about that, even if the journey is a little bit rough and the football not yet fully evolved.  

[/quote]But to do more than just stay in this division (your ambition, not mine - I only hope at best for survival) we first have to stay in this division.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="ron obvious"]

I do not believe Hughton is the new Messiah, I believe he''s trying to build something sustainable. I am not at all sure there are managers who would do any better, I am sure there are many who would do worse.

Football does not produce the excitement it once did. Too much money involved, which means a commensurate fear of failure.

Enjoy it for the absorbing tactical battle it has become, shot through with moments of magic, or give up. It''s not going to change any time soon.[/quote]Parma and Ron have it right.  If we want to do more than just stay in this division, we have to build in a solid and reliable and modern way of playing the game.  Simply turning up and having a go will just see us back in the championship and we will always be that yo yo club.   The board, McNally Hughton and co have more ambition for us - and we should be pleased about that, even if the journey is a little bit rough and the football not yet fully evolved.   [/quote]But to do more than just stay in this division (your ambition, not mine - I only hope at best for survival) we first have to stay in this division.[/quote]Of course.   And we are three points off tenth place.   Everything to play for.  

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"] If we want to do more than just stay in this division, we have to build in a solid and reliable and modern way of playing the game.[/quote]Agreed. However there is little evidence to suggest that Hughton is the man to do this, and zero evidence that he''s going to turn us into the sort of team Parma imagines he is trying to.I''m not someone who wants Hughton out, I think he''s a decent, if limited, manager who will reliably keep us up by scraping good results against teams around us in his typical joyless fashion, while receiving our annual hammerings from the rich clubs. Ironically he''s probably the perfect example of the kind of stodgy British manager that Parma spends most of his time denegrating.The issue is with the idea that he''s taking us towards some kind of modern footballing nirvana, even though anytime anyone takes any kind of objective look at the claims Parma makes, reality steps in and disagrees.