ricardo 7,385 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="T"]Standard performance measure is to compare your outputs ( here points) compared to inputs (wages) compared to your peers. Here CH has and is outperforming his peers so there is no objective evidence that there is anything wrong with CH tactics, selection or subs, or that another mgr would be better. The evidence is the contrary. The criticisms of CH are clearly just subjective and when the CEO is on a million bonus for staying up he will make an objective decision not take an emotional subjective viewed as some fans are.[/quote]Purely on the basis of the points/wages correlation we don''t know that he outperformed last season (although he probably did) because the figures for all the other 19 Premier League clubs are not yet available. As for this season we certainly don''t know where Norwich City stand in the wages league table, so it is impossible to say if he is currently outperforming, let alone whether he will over the course of the season. What is objectively undeniable (and the cause of objective concern) is that Hughton is underperforming himself compared with last season, with all three key indicators markedly worse. We are heading for a final points tally of 38, six down on last season, and below the generally accepted safety mark of 40.[/quote]This is true but the question is whether anyone else can do better. Looking at the five teams who have changed their manager I can''t see any that would guarantee us a marked improvement. The cries for Malky McKay seem based on desperation rather than reason. Whatever happens at the end there will be those that changed and find it will have made no difference. That''s just the simple logic of five into three won''t go but the changers will no doubt point to the escapee''s as confirmation of their argument.38 points is my prediction looking at it at this time but it will be more than enough for safety this season despite being below the expectations of many. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Great Mass Debater 1,090 Posted January 5, 2014 Would ANY different manager get more out of the players? No, not necessarily. Is it possible that there is a more talented manager in the world than Chris Hughton? Someone who could get more out of them? Of course. Could we get such a manager? Well that is the real question isnt it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,557 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="T"]Standard performance measure is to compare your outputs ( here points) compared to inputs (wages) compared to your peers. Here CH has and is outperforming his peers so there is no objective evidence that there is anything wrong with CH tactics, selection or subs, or that another mgr would be better. The evidence is the contrary. The criticisms of CH are clearly just subjective and when the CEO is on a million bonus for staying up he will make an objective decision not take an emotional subjective viewed as some fans are.[/quote]Purely on the basis of the points/wages correlation we don''t know that he outperformed last season (although he probably did) because the figures for all the other 19 Premier League clubs are not yet available. As for this season we certainly don''t know where Norwich City stand in the wages league table, so it is impossible to say if he is currently outperforming, let alone whether he will over the course of the season. What is objectively undeniable (and the cause of objective concern) is that Hughton is underperforming himself compared with last season, with all three key indicators markedly worse. We are heading for a final points tally of 38, six down on last season, and below the generally accepted safety mark of 40.[/quote]This is true but the question is whether anyone else can do better. Looking at the five teams who have changed their manager I can''t see any that would guarantee us a marked improvement. The cries for Malky McKay seem based on desperation rather than reason. Whatever happens at the end there will be those that changed and find it will have made no difference. That''s just the simple logic of five into three won''t go but the changers will no doubt point to the escapee''s as confirmation of their argument.38 points is my prediction looking at it at this time but it will be more than enough for safety this season despite being below the expectations of many.[/quote]No, ricardo, I agree. There isn''t someone obvious out there who you would put money on to do better. This is one of the points I made in the Management Myth thread, that change can work but it has to be under the right circumstances at the right time and for the right reasons. And that includes having a replacement who in the uncertain world of football looks like a marked improvement. In any event, I believe November (in particular beating West Ham) meant Hughton would be in charge all season.As to those other clubs, an unverifiable guess would be that Palace under Pulis will get more points than if they''d stayed with Holloway, but that is not the same as saying they will escape. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,385 Posted January 5, 2014 Spot on, Purple. [Y] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,533 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote What is objectively undeniable (and the cause of objective concern) is that Hughton is underperforming himself compared with last season, with all three key indicators markedly worse. We are heading for a final points tally of 38, six down on last season, and below the generally accepted safety mark of 40.[/quote] Whilst those indicators are right it''s still debatable if we''re underperforming compared to last season. I hear you laughing at me already Purple...... However, Last season we had 25 points and were 3 points away from top half. This season we have 20 points and are 3 points away from top half. If we had 25 points we would be clear in the top half and some would say out performing last season? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,557 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote What is objectively undeniable (and the cause of objective concern) is that Hughton is underperforming himself compared with last season, with all three key indicators markedly worse. We are heading for a final points tally of 38, six down on last season, and below the generally accepted safety mark of 40.[/quote] Whilst those indicators are right it''s still debatable if we''re underperforming compared to last season. I hear you laughing at me already Purple...... However, Last season we had 25 points and were 3 points away from top half. This season we have 20 points and are 3 points away from top half. If we had 25 points we would be clear in the top half and some would say out performing last season? [/quote]You must have really good hearing, nutty, given the distance between us...[:D][:D][:D] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="nutty nigel"]If we had 25 points we would be clear in the top half and some would say out performing last season? [/quote]We don''t have those points, we have less points. This time last season we looked safe, 9 points above the drop zone, until our dismal run continued for a few months. The difference this season is we are right in the thick of it just 3 points off the relegation places. It is entirely possible we could be in the relegation zone in one games time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,533 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote What is objectively undeniable (and the cause of objective concern) is that Hughton is underperforming himself compared with last season, with all three key indicators markedly worse. We are heading for a final points tally of 38, six down on last season, and below the generally accepted safety mark of 40.[/quote] Whilst those indicators are right it''s still debatable if we''re underperforming compared to last season. I hear you laughing at me already Purple...... However, Last season we had 25 points and were 3 points away from top half. This season we have 20 points and are 3 points away from top half. If we had 25 points we would be clear in the top half and some would say out performing last season? [/quote]You must have really good hearing, nutty, given the distance between us...[:D][:D][:D][/quote] Good hearing or good perception...... [;)] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,385 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote What is objectively undeniable (and the cause of objective concern) is that Hughton is underperforming himself compared with last season, with all three key indicators markedly worse. We are heading for a final points tally of 38, six down on last season, and below the generally accepted safety mark of 40.[/quote] Whilst those indicators are right it''s still debatable if we''re underperforming compared to last season. I hear you laughing at me already Purple...... However, Last season we had 25 points and were 3 points away from top half. This season we have 20 points and are 3 points away from top half. If we had 25 points we would be clear in the top half and some would say out performing last season? [/quote]You only have to compare last years table at 20 games to see that all of this years bottom half have underperformed against the top half this season.Barring Southampton in the middle there is a huge disconnect between the two halves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,334 Posted January 5, 2014 I doubt that either the ''Messiah'' or Malky could get much more out of the squad , given the injuries. As for anyone else, well, i''d like to know who before i comment. The Premier league is so much tougher than the championship and CH is doin ok, not great , but ok. If you discount the above two (and i really think we should) ...who IS actually available with as much or more top flight experience as CH. We have a young talented squad, several injuries to senior players...they will return, itll be alright. Ch will get more from the players. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted January 5, 2014 You only have to look at how Moyes is doing at United to see how different managers get different performances from the same players. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,533 Posted January 5, 2014 [quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]If we had 25 points we would be clear in the top half and some would say out performing last season? [/quote]We don''t have those points, we have less points. This time last season we looked safe, 9 points above the drop zone, until our dismal run continued for a few months. The difference this season is we are right in the thick of it just 3 points off the relegation places. It is entirely possible we could be in the relegation zone in one games time.[/quote]This is the point I''m making. Last season the top half were 10 points clear. I''m not denying we''re only 3 points clear of relegation places. But we are only 3 points short of top half. Where do you expect us to be Foggy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrMcGoo1809 0 Posted January 5, 2014 Wcorkcanary-- that''s the same sort of 5hite I''ve heard off some fans for 18 months. Also before most people start to despise the clueless t1t he should walk or McNice should MAN UP and say "I got it wrong" I went to far in the opposite direction from the attacking messiah, All the way to boring defensive clueless (untis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,334 Posted January 6, 2014 Great!!!! another thread killed off with anti CH sentiment, you may have to listen to a lot more of my kind of 5hite...from more than just me too, Mr McGoo.Aint the ''Messiah'' doin well in the Cup? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaun Tilly Lace 0 Posted January 6, 2014 He couldn''t get less from them, surely? It would be lovely to be given the chance to see what would happen with a new man in charge of the team! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
