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The Great Mass Debater

How do you fairly judge a striker?

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Goals are currency, but with the knives beginning to come out for RvW and the relative praised for Hooper, how do you fairly judge a striker? As Elmander is probably proving, its not just about goals is it? At what point do you start to balme the striker and at what point do you blame the supply line and the tactics? Is it as simple as chance conversion? Probably not, as Hooper has made a few goals himself out of nothing.

 

To me, you can only start to criticise RvW when you can put together a catalogue of misses in your head. RvW may not fashion chances himself and strikes me as a player who thrives on getting on the end of things. For me you can only judge him as the type of player he is. If he couldnt hit the broad side of a barn as was spurning chances left right and centre, then I think criticism would be fair, but it seems he is making the runs, creating the space, waiting to be fed, and not getting what he wants. Is this his fault? Is it the teams? Is it the tactics? Is it the manager? Is it the decision to buy this type of player? Is it that decision and then the further decision to not play to his strengths or build the team around him?

 

What are your thoughts?

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On goals scored. At the end of the day after a career that''s the only thing that defines you as a striker.

RvW was bought in to score goals, he hasn''t done that. Hooper was bought in for the same, and he HAS done that.

It doesn''t mean RvW will be a failure for us, or himself, he just needs to start scoring goals. In a way it''s the system we play that is doing it. Hooper''s goals have all been laid off to him by someone else (Hoolahoop, and a few off Elmander, and of course, Fer) whereas RvW hasn''t had many chances fall to him like that.

I''m sure in time it''ll come, but Hooper has hit the ground running and got that momentum going.

Truth is, we''ve been very unlucky with injuries in that department

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[quote user="AJ"]On goals scored. At the end of the day after a career that''s the only thing that defines you as a striker.[/quote]Can''t agree with that at all AJ.Look at someone like Bergkamp for example, he ''only'' averaged just over 10 goals a season during his 11 years at Arsenal, but the fact that his strike rate is half that of Henry''s doesn''t make him half the striker!You also HAVE to take into account the level of support a player is getting from their team and the quality of opposition they are regularly facing, and it''s no surprise to me that RVW has failed to score more than he has - poor supply, being asked to play a target man role in a new league and new country - hardly rocket science to wonder why he''s not been prolific is it?I don''t think the problem we''ve had is because of injuries, it''s because of the way we''ve setup and how this negatively impacts our attacking intent, a fact stated to a certain degree by Holt before he left as well...

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[quote user="Making Plans"]Holt, Hooper, RVW, Becchio - non of them had problems scoring goals before they met Hughton.
Coincidence?
[/quote]

 

Ouch!

 

But very true.

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[quote user="Making Plans"]Holt, Hooper, RVW, Becchio - non of them had problems scoring goals before they met Hughton. Coincidence?[/quote]

Some of it is the negative tactics, some of it is stepping up to the higher level.

Hooper has no problems scoring goals now. 7 goals in 3 months football is pretty good

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A big part of judging a striker is his goals because let''s face it, that is what they get paid to do. There are other attributes that can be looked out for eg. Work rate, assists and movement but strikers will always and rightly so be judged on goals.

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But who''s fault is it that a striker doesnt score? If you buy Sergio Aguero then play him as a target man and play long balls up in the air for him to get his head on, or you ask Jan Koller or Carsten Jancker to play on the shoulder of his opponent and then play through balls for him to run onto and ask him to beat his defenders for pace, none of them are likely to score many goals, no matter how good they are. In such a scenario (albeit heavily exaggerated to labour a point) is it fair to then criticize them for not scoring?

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He''s getting his chances on target, had two good efforts against Fulham well saved, just needs a little luck on his side. I hope it clicks for him soon, you can tell he''s hungry for it but just lacking a little bit of confidence. Let him play with Wes, Fox, Fer, Redmond and Pilks when he''s fit, that''s what I say!

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"][quote user="Making Plans"]Holt, Hooper, RVW, Becchio - non of them had problems scoring goals before they met Hughton. Coincidence?[/quote]

Some of it is the negative tactics, some of it is stepping up to the higher level.

Hooper has no problems scoring goals now. 7 goals in 3 months football is pretty good[/quote]And to go on from this point, as soon as Holt went to Wigan, and was released from the shackles of the damning Hughton, he''s now just scoring for fun in a lower league........isn''t he?

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Holt has had his best years, i don''t know how Wigan play and he''s also had injury problems. I purely meant negative in that we play a predominantly defensive game. We''re on course to score about 40 goals this season. How can we expect our strikers to hit up a 30 goal a season partnership when there''s only 40 to be shared out throughout the team?

It''s the Earnshaw/ Darren Bent conundrum. Both of them scored by the bucket load, but didn''t do a lot else. They were goal poachers and teams tactically used them as such and relied on their goals as their midfields weren''t set up to get many themselves.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Holt has had his best years, i don''t know how Wigan play and he''s also had injury problems. I purely meant negative in that we play a predominantly defensive game. We''re on course to score about 40 goals this season. How can we expect our strikers to hit up a 30 goal a season partnership when there''s only 40 to be shared out throughout the team?

It''s the Earnshaw/ Darren Bent conundrum. Both of them scored by the bucket load, but didn''t do a lot else. They were goal poachers and teams tactically used them as such and relied on their goals as their midfields weren''t set up to get many themselves.[/quote]Exactly!Bent is a great example. He''s scored bucket loads almost everywhere he''s been, especially earlier in his career. He hasn''t played in a lot of winning sides though, has he?

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Blimey eight hours since this thread started and no pearls of wisdom on the topic from LDC yet. [;)]

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]Blimey eight hours since this thread started and no pearls of wisdom on the topic from LDC yet. [;)][/quote]How do you judge a striker?  The same way some people judge a manager. 1. Assume he is useless despite his previous record.   2. Rubbish him in any way you can, including his personality, what he says, what he wears, what he eats and what his politics are.3. Put about as much one sided information on his football ability as you can and shout that he should be transferred out asap.4. As the striker is question is deemed useless, get another one in.5. When new striker arrives, start again at number 1.

Well, you asked for it...........

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="TIL 1010"]Blimey eight hours since this thread started and no pearls of wisdom on the topic from LDC yet. [;)][/quote]How do you judge a striker?  The same way some people judge a manager. 1. Assume he is useless despite his previous record.   2. Rubbish him in any way you can, including his personality, what he says, what he wears, what he eats and what his politics are.3. Put about as much one sided information on his football ability as you can and shout that he should be transferred out asap.4. As the striker is question is deemed useless, get another one in.5. When new striker arrives, start again at number 1.

Well, you asked for it...........

[/quote]

 

You forgot the bit about contacting him and advising him to leave...

 

 

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In a team game striker is part of the team and he has role to play.

I dont know what our strikers are told to do, but what Hughton has said in interviews it seems RvW has a different role in the field than Hooper and Elmander.

In my opinion only way to judge striker is to see how happy your manager is for him and does he do mistakes when he get''s cball or look dangerous from those half chances and how good work rate he has and add those to his physical attributes (speed, strenght, height etc)

In my opinion our all 3 strikers are just fine in this area and Hooper scoring more than RvW is more luck than anything else. Elmander ofc almost never plays a role where he would get same chances than Hooper.

In my opinion we have 3 good players and if we get tactics work RvW will overthrown Hooper as he looks that much better player.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]Another good way is to measure the crowds cheers when the strikers come on as sub... [/quote]Is that along with your "number of times on the bench is an indicator of importance" measure, or your "They''re 1st choice when the manager wants to play them - how often this is, is irrelevant" option...

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Another good way is to measure the crowds cheers when the strikers come on as sub... [/quote]Is that along with your "number of times on the bench is an indicator of importance" measure, or your "They''re 1st choice when the manager wants to play them - how often this is, is irrelevant" option...[/quote]

 

The fact that Becchio is in the match day squad so often is reason enough not to let him out on loan. We were in a position where Hooper and RVW were injured. If Elmander then got a straight red Becchio would be 1st choice. What is it about a squad that you find so difficult to comprehend? I could understand if you were old and only remembered the days of the first eleven and reserves. But by your posts you can''t be much more than 12....

 

 

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]35 thanks NN, so probably about half your age I guess?[/quote]

 

Really???

 

Well I''ll go the the foot of our stairs....

 

 

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I love it when someone''s sarcastic to another and then can''t string a simple sentence together themselves.Nice to see a proper discussion for once until the boys started having a tiff!

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watching him play is usually the best method

of course if that is a bit too baffling for some of the happy clappies then there is always some Colin or Trevors who can list how many yards he has ran in the second half in a diagonal direction against a top half team away from home, how many times he has headed the ball forward from an opposition player''s misskick in the final third of the pitch or which assist to an assist (insert opposition touch) that he assisted to an assisted assist which was assisted ...............I''m sure if you collate all these then you can judge a striker .................... though it might mean missing the game to add them all up

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Only players in premier league that really create there own chances from completely nothing consistantly are Suarez & Rooney.

People are right in what they say that strikers are judged on goals but nobody''s really considered putting the blame on wingers/creative midfielders. Snodgrass/Redmond/hoolahan have ran about but not really created easy chances for our strikers.

Aguero is a prime example. I know it''s a completely different quality level but when do you see him bang in a 30 yarder? The midfield have a clear understanding and they put 1/2 chances on a plate for him every game. all RvW/Hooper need is 1/2 chances, if they aren''t given that then they won''t score goals

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