Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Big Vince

Premier League has Corrupted Football

Recommended Posts

As Eusebio once said, the modern game is all about commercial interests. The players nowadays are playing corporate football for the club''s balance sheet. Unless you are in the top six, the Premier League is a grim war of attrition where all the players and managers are simply concerned about staying out of the bottom three. Players are sent over the white line scared to win a game for fear of losing it instead. Creative players like the boy Fox and the boy Hoolahan are left out because they try to get over the game line instead of holding a line. The wide boys drift infield because getting to the by line and putting in a cross will in all probability give away possession. The strikers have to go looking for the ball instead of being in a goal scoring position to receive it. Is this type of play worth £40-50 per game? I think not. Is this type of play worth the carbon footprint to an away venue? I think not. If the cup competitions have no interest for clubs nowadays and even European qualification is deemed irrelevant, what is the point of having football competitions at all? Money has utterly destroyed the game. Do supporters realise that all they are doing nowadays is simply supporting the balance sheet? They are certainly not supporting a football team in the fullest sense of the word anymore. It is about time the Premier League clubs came clean with everyone concerned and, instead of perpetuating this charade, voted to withdraw from the FA and League Cups. The best thing that could happen to football would be the complete collapse of all television companies. Perhaps then players would once again cross the white line with the right motivation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately, its gone too far.  Big business and money have taken over nearly everything.  You either have or you have not.  The only solution is to stop watching premiership football, vote with your pocket.   I have some Man City fans as relatives (in laws) - and I know that quite a lot of older Man City fans (over 40''s) have given up following MCity for the reasons you mention.    A few of them have gone over to watching smaller clubs in the area - Hyde Utd - for instance.   Sad as it may be to be so disillusioned with their premiership club, the ones I have spoken to insist that switching allegiance to a lower league club has re-ignited their interest in real football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Utter rubbish used to justify the dour football served up by Norwich City over the last 2 seasons.

Of course at the top there will always be the teams with the money and the players beyond our wildest dreams that will beat us even on our best day.

Once in a blue moon we might get a result but we travel in hope more than expectation other than that there are probably 14 teams that should be comparable probably much closer now than 20 years ago in terms of finance do they all have to put up with the kind of games we do ?

West Ham Probably

Only Cardiff, Palace and Sunderland have scored less goals than us and of those only Sunderland can match our goals conceded.

Yes we grind out the odd result but please don''t damn the league based on our lacklustre performances as I am sure even fans of these teams will have had days to remember this season Sunderland and Cardiff Beating Man City for instance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Utter rubbish used to justify the dour football served up by Norwich City over the last 2 seasons.

Of course at the top there will always be the teams with the money and the players beyond our wildest dreams that will beat us even on our best day.

Once in a blue moon we might get a result but we travel in hope more than expectation other than that there are probably 14 teams that should be comparable probably much closer now than 20 years ago in terms of finance do they all have to put up with the kind of games we do ?

West Ham Probably

Only Cardiff, Palace and Sunderland have scored less goals than us and of those only Sunderland can match our goals conceded.

Yes we grind out the odd result but please don''t damn the league based on our lacklustre performances as I am sure even fans of these teams will have had days to remember this season Sunderland and Cardiff Beating Man City for instance.[/quote]Have you watched the dire performances from most premier league clubs this season, most are scared to lose as the OP says.Did you see big Sam smiling after the 5-0 cup defeat, he didnt care, did you see the young fan crying, he did care, there lies the problem with the cupSpot on OP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Newsflash OP! It started in 1992 ;-) Well, arguably 1892 when Preston NE was the first club to become a limited company

Bears repeating though, lest we lose sight...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Utter rubbish used to justify the dour football served up by Norwich City over the last 2 seasons.

Of course at the top there will always be the teams with the money and the players beyond our wildest dreams that will beat us even on our best day.

Once in a blue moon we might get a result but we travel in hope more than expectation other than that there are probably 14 teams that should be comparable probably much closer now than 20 years ago in terms of finance do they all have to put up with the kind of games we do ?

West Ham Probably

Only Cardiff, Palace and Sunderland have scored less goals than us and of those only Sunderland can match our goals conceded.

Yes we grind out the odd result but please don''t damn the league based on our lacklustre performances as I am sure even fans of these teams will have had days to remember this season Sunderland and Cardiff Beating Man City for instance.[/quote]Lol, well done on turning this round to being just about Norwich, and how much you hate the team you allegedly support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It should have been obvious from the start, where all this would lead. More money at the top of the tree, fine for the big boys who are unlikely ever to be relegated but for the rest it forces them into cautious tactics. Not losing becomes just as, if not more important than winning. Denying your opponents points is a very real consideration. At the time of its inception I thought the Premier League could only be justified by it becoming a closed league like the NFL in America. Dreadful to contemplate when you are outside it but the only way to remove fear from the game. I don''t advocate it myself and I know that promotion and relegation are part of the culture of the game but the possibility of having the prize snatched away from you makes it unlikely that the lower clubs will ever lose the safety first mentality.One answer would be that the big clubs leave for a European League. It would leave the  Premiership much more competitive but at the price of losing most of the Sky millions and a good measure of its glamour. A closed league would work but not for those excluded.I don''t know what the solution is but for clubs like NCFC, with little prospect of a billionaire changing their fortunes, the only answer is to keep rowing for the shore. We may have little hope of arriving on the beach but at least we won''t sink.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="ricardo"]It should have been obvious from the start, where all this would lead. More money at the top of the tree, fine for the big boys who are unlikely ever to be relegated but for the rest it forces them into cautious tactics. Not losing becomes just as, if not more important than winning. Denying your opponents points is a very real consideration. At the time of its inception I thought the Premier League could only be justified by it becoming a closed league like the NFL in America. Dreadful to contemplate when you are outside it but the only way to remove fear from the game. I don''t advocate it myself and I know that promotion and relegation are part of the culture of the game but the possibility of having the prize snatched away from you makes it unlikely that the lower clubs will ever lose the safety first mentality.One answer would be that the big clubs leave for a European League. It would leave the  Premiership much more competitive but at the price of losing most of the Sky millions and a good measure of its glamour. A closed league would work but not for those excluded.I don''t know what the solution is but for clubs like NCFC, with little prospect of a billionaire changing their fortunes, the only answer is to keep rowing for the shore. We may have little hope of arriving on the beach but at least we won''t sink.[/quote]

It is probably going to happen eventually anyway so let the big ones go off to a European League now.

As for the billionaire for Norwich suggestion, we should all know by now that Delia Smith and Wynn Jones have no intention whatsoever of selling up - even to a billionaire. Delia and MWJ are of the opinion that they are not just owners, but trustees and custodians of the club as well and no one else, billionaire or otherwise, could possibly be trusted with Norwich City Football Club. And the boy Fry was drafted onto the Board to give them the winning vote on any contentious matter brought before the Board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is of course a simple solution to all this. We just go one step further than Jimmy Hill. 3 points for a win and nil points for a draw, do away with goal difference but keep goals scored. Then I reckon we might see some more adventurous football from everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="General Melchett"]There is of course a simple solution to all this. We just go one step further than Jimmy Hill. 3 points for a win and nil points for a draw, do away with goal difference but keep goals scored. Then I reckon we might see some more adventurous football from everyone.[/quote]It won''t lead to adventurous football any more than the 3 points for a win did. If only wins brought points Fulham would go above us and WBA would drop below us in the present table. If you were one win ahead of a team you were playing away you would still have every incentive to keep it tight just to deny them the win. The idea that both teams would go all out for the win is largely wishful thinking you would still get teams like Villa who defend and hope to hit you on the break.Football will never become like  Basketball without losing it''s most attractive characteristic, (goals are rare events) that''s why we celebrate them so much. You are more likely to win more or avoid defeat if you have a tight back line regardless of how many goals your strikers can produce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok fair point Ricardo but something has to change to incentivise teams to try and win games. A point for a draw just seems too desirable for us little teams. What about doing away with goal difference. Would that not avoid the situation of going 2-0 down to a superior team and then playing for damage limitation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="General Melchett"]Ok fair point Ricardo but something has to change to incentivise teams to try and win games. A point for a draw just seems too desirable for us little teams. What about doing away with goal difference. Would that not avoid the situation of going 2-0 down to a superior team and then playing for damage limitation.[/quote]I believe all teams try to win but with goals being rare events in a match a 1-0 victory is easier to come by than a 5-4. Football is as much about defending as attacking. The chances of out scoring the big boys are small in any event.Does anyone really believe a manager sends a team out with the instructions, "try not to win". They may set up in the context of the game to "keep it tight", but that''s another matter. It seems to me that with the Premiership being virtually two separate leagues, where you almost write off the games against the big boys, barring a very rare win; the games between members of your own sub league are the ones which seal your fate and as such it is critical not to lose.. Denying your  rivals points is as important as winning. It''s certainly the next best thing.I don''t know the answer. A more balanced league would help but why would the big boys want to throw away their present advantages. It''s not going to happen, we will not return to the 50''s and 60''s where it was almost impossible to name the top seven. Now we can do it every year. The present top seven are the same top seven that finished last year and with the exception of Newcastle, the year before that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Premiership was created to make the big clubs bigger, instead of distributing it throughout the football league, and it''s done that, beyond their wildest dreams !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Big Vince"]As for the billionaire for Norwich suggestion, we should all know by now that Delia Smith and Wynn Jones have no intention whatsoever of selling up - even to a billionaire. Delia and MWJ are of the opinion that they are not just owners, but trustees and custodians of the club as well and no one else, billionaire or otherwise, could possibly be trusted with Norwich City Football Club. And the boy Fry was drafted onto the Board to give them the winning vote on any contentious matter brought before the Board.[/quote]Absolutely, Big Vince. A total disgace. They should do what the owners of every other plc in the country do and fill the board with directors they know will always vote against them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Top tier leagues have always, and will always be dominated by a few teams in anyone given season. It''s what happens when the best teams don''t have a higher level to move to.

 

If you look at other European leagues that aren''t as well off as the Premier League you will also see the same patterns - in Holland PSV, Ajax or Feynoord are pretty much guaranteed to win every year (Steve McClaren pulled off a near miracle with Twente but it hasn''t been repeated). In Portugal only Benfica, Porto and Sporting have ever won the league (apart from when Belenenses won in 1945). The German League has been dominated by Bayern throughout its history with one or sometimes two other clubs challenging them at any one time.

 

I''d say the Premier League is actually one of the most open going at the moment - this season alone people have said Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd and even Tottenham could possibly win the league. There are no other major leagues in Europe where you would find that many contendors for the title. The German and Italy leagues are already pretty much sewn up by Bayern and Juventus respectively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BY&G you are almost right about the competitiveness level for the top spot* but must we not also consider the wider league...? 

 

When you compare with the Bundesliga over the past 10 seasons they have had only marginally more clubs taking the top 3 places, but as a proportion of the league membership, this equates to nearly 40% of clubs in German top division versus 25% of England''s. If Bundesliga clubs had to play four more clubs over eight more games each, who knows there might be even wider spread amongst those attaining the top positions. Likewise the number of PL champions in the same period was 20% of the competing clubs compared to 30% of competitors in the Bundesliga.

 

*Some of the worst traits - most generally, running football as a business - are shared by most of the top leagues you refer to, due to historical ownership and support/income patterns. However it''s not just the PL per se that people like me complain about, it''s what goes along with it including the modern English football financial model. 

 

What we seem to do most extremely here is:

- need for massive debt or billionaire tycoons to gain entry and survival at the top

- high number of clubs approaching or going into administration

- player wages / agent fees, both in ££ and as % of turnover

- most disproportionate player / agent power and the side-effects of this

- most expensive spectator tickets

- lowest % sharing of profits with lower leagues

- highest proportion of foreign players

- poorest national team performance

 

If none of these bother you then we are definitely talking different languages ;-)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But a football club plc is not like any other plc. Football arouses strong passions and there is a large constituency of supporters that has to be placated. Shareholders of ordinary plcs show very little interest in the companies in which they have invested apart from whether the share price is up or down. But football club shareholders and supporters take their club to heart and so the directors have to be more in tune with what they are thinking. What a lot of Norwich City shareholders and supporters are mystified about is the apparent lack of interest from any outside investors. Does Delia believe that all billionaires are simply Mister Chases in disguise who can''t be trusted? The club appears to have a very effective machine in keeping everything under wraps. We are still waiting for a proper explanation of the Turners departure. All we get are words spoken with forked tongue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Big Vince"]We are still waiting for a proper explanation of the Turners departure.[/quote] No we''re not!They''ve moved on, the club has moved on, why can''t you move on? [:^)]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But the club has not moved on. The Gang of Three from 1996 is still there. And so is the culture of secrecy and the wall of silence that ensues from it. The Gang of Three should have resigned in 2009 after the debacle of The Valley. Especially as Two of the Gang of Three were hiding in London whilst Munby and Doomcaster had to face the wrath of the Canary hordes at the end of season forum. Some of us have long memories............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Big Vince"]The Gang of Three should have resigned in 2009 after the debacle of The Valley[/quote]You''ve obviously been in a coma since then. Glad to see you''ve finally been awakened. [Y]Unfortunately, it seems to have left you somewhat brain damaged. [:S]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Big Vince"]But a football club plc is not like any other plc. Football arouses strong passions and there is a large constituency of supporters that has to be placated. Shareholders of ordinary plcs show very little interest in the companies in which they have invested apart from whether the share price is up or down. But football club shareholders and supporters take their club to heart and so the directors have to be more in tune with what they are thinking. What a lot of Norwich City shareholders and supporters are mystified about is the apparent lack of interest from any outside investors. Does Delia believe that all billionaires are simply Mister Chases in disguise who can''t be trusted? The club appears to have a very effective machine in keeping everything under wraps. We are still waiting for a proper explanation of the Turners departure. All we get are words spoken with forked tongue.[/quote]It would be tedious to explain everything that is wrong with that one paragraph. Two simple points. Shareholders of listed plcs care very much about how their companies are run precisely because of the share price. And the owners of listed non-football plcs are under far more pressure to explain their performance than are the owners of football clubs, because shareholders in the former have real power to effect change.Secondly it is easy to blame the supposed lack of investor interest on Delia. Easy but stupid. As this quote from Bowkett from 2011 shows:“We have approached 52 potential investors around the world - in Europe, Russia, the Middle East, the Far East, the United States and, of course, the UK. We have had some expressions of interest. But every time when I asked the question ‘Could you please verify you have funding?’ no one passed the test. We have searched throughout the world with the toughest advisers, but there is no one out there with real money in their pockets. I like to see the colour of someone’s money before we do any deals and no one has shown us any.”Note the rather large number of 52. And note the use of "I" there. This is Bowkett, the hard-headed businessman, saying none of the interested parties met HIS standards. Nothing to do with Delia fobbing genuine people off. But do carry on blaming her, and wanting an answer to a question only you seem to care about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Big Vince"]The Gang of Three should have resigned in 2009 after the debacle of The Valley[/quote]You''ve obviously been in a coma since then. Glad to see you''ve finally been awakened. [Y]Unfortunately, it seems to have left you somewhat brain damaged. [:S][/quote]What was it McNally said, totally umprompted,  only two months ago? Ah yes:

"With Delia and Michael we are very lucky. We’ve said that we are about the 19th or 20th richest club in the league but having Delia and Michael as the majority shareholders is a huge competitive advantage and I’m glad they’re here because they are very good at running a football club.”Not just owning but running.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Two major factors that influence the aproach to the game for most clubs is:

1. The fear of losing the vast income that relegation brings.

2. That you need a little bit more than one point per game in order to avoid relegation

Both these factors will tend to make clubs risk-averse. It is more important not to lose than to win because by not losing you are getting at least that precious point.

So would there be more open free-flowing football if there was only one and not three teams relegated from the PL each season?

Would you go and watch knowing that we were already safe from relegation (season ticket not withstanding) at the half-way stage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly expected a lot better from the Purple Canary. To say that Delia and Wynn Jones are good at running a football club completely flies in the face of every scrap of Canary history during the period 1996-2009 (ie. before McNally). In 1998 they interviewed both Steve Bruce and Neil Warnock to succeed Mike Walker but went for Bruce Rioch instead. They then appointed Bryan Hamilton who had no real managerial experience. They allowed Worthington to carry on far too long when he should have been sacked after the 6-0 at Fulham. They then appointed Peter Grant with no managerial experience. They then appointed Roeder, a nasty piece of work, again with no significant track record. After this, Delia gave full expression to her slapstick sense of humour with the appointment of Bryan Gunn. Someone who had never previously showed any inclination to go into coaching, let alone management. Good at running a football club, eh? Yes, they certainly surrounded themselves with football masterminds on the Board as well, didn''t they? The Villa supporting Bob Cooper, the Bristol City supporting Doomcaster, Barry Skipper who stated that debt was a good discipline for the club to have and, of course, the utterly hapless Roger Munby, whose every mantra had a predictable habit of turning to dust. Remember the one which stated that every Norwich City coach and manager must have Canary DNA? Thank God for Roy Hodgson! It was he who TOLD Delia and Wynn Jones to get McNally which led to the turnaround from 2009. But even he has now been sucked into the 1996-2009 malaise. Gripped by fear, the paralysis of action we now see is all too reminiscent of that earlier period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Big Vince"]I certainly expected a lot better from the Purple Canary. To say that Delia and Wynn Jones are good at running a football club completely flies in the face of every scrap of Canary history during the period 1996-2009 (ie. before McNally). In 1998 they interviewed both Steve Bruce and Neil Warnock to succeed Mike Walker but went for Bruce Rioch instead. They then appointed Bryan Hamilton who had no real managerial experience. They allowed Worthington to carry on far too long when he should have been sacked after the 6-0 at Fulham. They then appointed Peter Grant with no managerial experience. They then appointed Roeder, a nasty piece of work, again with no significant track record. After this, Delia gave full expression to her slapstick sense of humour with the appointment of Bryan Gunn. Someone who had never previously showed any inclination to go into coaching, let alone management. Good at running a football club, eh? Yes, they certainly surrounded themselves with football masterminds on the Board as well, didn''t they? The Villa supporting Bob Cooper, the Bristol City supporting Doomcaster, Barry Skipper who stated that debt was a good discipline for the club to have and, of course, the utterly hapless Roger Munby, whose every mantra had a predictable habit of turning to dust. Remember the one which stated that every Norwich City coach and manager must have Canary DNA? Thank God for Roy Hodgson! It was he who TOLD Delia and Wynn Jones to get McNally which led to the turnaround from 2009. But even he has now been sucked into the 1996-2009 malaise. Gripped by fear, the paralysis of action we now see is all too reminiscent of that earlier period.[/quote]I am only agreeing with David McNally, in whom you place so much store, Big Vince. It is true that Smith and Jones had a rocky patch of about three years up to 2009, but one short bad spell is forgiveable over 16/17 years. The rest of the time has been pretty succesful. I think you may have misunderstood what "malaise" when according to you "malaise" includes a play-off final and winning the Championship in a canter.There are many clubs out there of similar size or bigger that would kill for a last 17 years as generally successful as ours. A list would include Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday, Coventry, Wolves, Preston, Birmingham, Middlesbrough, Leeds, Ipswich, Forest, Derby and Leicester.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is where we disagree, Purple Canary. You accept that Norwich City''s place in the football pecking order is mid-table Championship. That being the case, you are at one with Smith and Jones and the boy Fry, amongst others. As far as I am concerned, any season spent outside the top flight is failure and so to have only one season in the Premier League during the period 1996-2011 is a spectacular failure on a grand scale. Smith and Jones took the accolade of becoming the first owners to lead us to the third tier for 49 years.Compare that to Messrs Watling, South & Chase who had Norwich City in the top flight from 1972 to 1995 with the exception of three one-off seasons in the second tier. The long periods of mediocrity that we have seen in the late 1990s and 2000s has meant that Norwich City have fallen further and further behind the established clubs and so now find it really hard to compete. Not just financially, but also in terms of infrastructure and commercial reach.

Norwich City don''t yet know what their actual size is because the stadium capacity is not able to test it. We are lead to believe that the club''s database contains up to 40,000 names so if anywhere near that number actually attended in an enlarged arena you would have to concede that a club of that size should take its rightful place in the top tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"any season spent outside the top flight is failure"2010/11 season ?as to your guff about attendances those figures are guided as much by price as successmost clubs in the top two divisions could attract huge 30,000 plus crowds if they lowered their ticket pricesas to a rightful place being determined by size of potential crowds then perhaps Sheff Weds should be in the PL not us, and MOTD would not be about who scored in the games but how many went through the turnstilesyou are talking out of your ar se as usual BV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If other people are going to put THEIR money into Norwich City Football Club they will do so on THEIR terms, not Delia''s or Bowkett''s. Bowkett has no right to stipulate his terms or standards. If that has been his approach it is little wonder there has been no investment. People who go around with begging bowls cannot say they will only accept caviar, not porridge.

I notice that Bowkett neglected to state the one question which any investors would have asked: "How many ordinary shares am I going to get in return for my investment and are the current owners prepared to sell their shareholdings?" Any large investor would obviously want to take control of the club, but everyone knows that Delia and MWJ are not ready to let that happen.

So Bowkett''s exercise was doomed to failure from the start. Delia and MWJ made a monkey of him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...