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Well said Lake District Canary

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]How many times did I hear ANYBODY would be better than Worthy....[/quote]Yes, and the board took way too long to react which lead to steadily worse performances, a huge slide down the table and a toxic atmosphere as Carrow Road...Are you really suggesting that you''d be happy to put up with this AGAIN, just so the board can delay swinging the axe on ''Mr Nice Guy''...[/quote]

 

Really? How long was too long??

 

I''d be happy if we''d kept Worthy and never had to tolerate Grant, Roeder and Gunn. I accept that there will always be change but my fear is that any change isn''t always a good change. The Lambert years were the exception and not the rule. With this in miond for me a manager change is more of a last resort than a first option.

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Indy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Yes Indy. And if we win the next 2 you''ll probably change your mind again. That''s fine. In my opinion that''s far more healthy than being entrenched in a view regardless. But the fact that you have changed your mind so frequently surely vindicates the boards actions so far.

 

 

[/quote]

 

No Nutty that is not correct, I sat on the fence for a long time and said so and yes if we are getting results playing this style then fine, you can argue that Hughton is doing a good job, but that is not the case. There were a number of games since WBA which I would have liked either points (preffered) or at least a good show and to be honest we have had neither, one half against Man U second 11 does not do it for me!

 

I admit that after the WBA result I said Hughton should be give the season but we have not moved on in fact in my opinion we are moving backwards with more issues, players are now aware that points are needed that will add to their pressure each game.

 

No, sorry but I''ve said it from the start and will say it now, regardless of now and the end of the season I want a change.

[/quote]

 

Good for you. But West Brom away was only last month....

 

 

[/quote]

 

A month is a long time watching Norwich under Hughton! It feels like longer. But I''m glad you''re happy for me Nutty.

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[quote user="Nexus_Canary"][quote user="littleyellowbirdie"][quote user="Year of the tiger"]Question, how many of the inners actually support CH as opposed to being against changing managers at this time. Most things I''ve read are just argueing the stats of changing managers not extolling the virtues of our boss and how he will take us forward in the future.

Certainly whilst I concede it may now be too late to change, I can''t face the prospect of watching a Hughton team home and away next season[/quote]

I do actively support Chris Hughton. Overall I think his strengths outweigh his weaknesses.

Any fair-minded person can see he''s working for Norwich to be a more attacking team. Outings in 4-4-2 are becoming increasingly common this season, which is not indicative of somebody trying to sit back and play for a draw. I don''t think playing Hoolahan in 4-4-2 at this level is a good idea either as midfielders have to work that much harder and Hoolahan is not much of a ball winner, or ball keeper for that matter. The only formation I''d really go for him in is 4-2-3-1 with our current squad so that there''s the extra cover behind him.

The players themselves seem to be a little lacking in fight. For that I think you need some of the right characters on the pitch. It disappeared with Holt, but I have some hope that Gutierrez may be bringing some of that with him. There''s not many international class players, let alone for a country like Argentina, who would have the stomach for sticking with a club after demotion to the Championship and be a massive part of battling their way back up to the Premier League.

Some interesting other comments by Gutierrez of note: That he likes Hughton''s managerial style. There can be no question that he''s chosen Norwich because Chris Hughton is here.

This first half of the season has been woeful in terms of quality. That said, there''s been some good stuff as well and we find ourselves in 15th despite all this.

Despite the crescendo of negativity from a number of the fans, the players still believe in CH. That should speak volumes in my opinion and it would be great if some of the fans could respect that and get behind all of them. He and the players will turn it around, I''m certain of it.[/quote]Do they ? Surely if they did they wouldnt be giving zero effort and have had such a shocking Xmas.And surely the likes of Wes wouldnt be itching to put on a claret shirt.Truth be known without knowing players active in the first team ( and i know none ) then we can''t be sure. Anyone who actively knows the truth wouldnt post as then they could happily forget next weeks invite to poker night ![/quote]They''re not giving zero effort. They are tending to lose their nerve

and panic when the tide goes against them and you need characters on the pitch who

can lead in that situation, which was what Grant Holt was particularly good at. Fulham''s comeback against us over Christmas was down to one player inspiring them back into it.

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If only we had a big fat pie eating captain like figure who had the dressing room in his pocket and was loved by players and fans alike....

oh wait........Hootan out

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[quote user="Nexus_Canary"]If only we had a big fat pie eating captain like figure who had the dressing room in his pocket and was loved by players and fans alike....

oh wait........Hootan out[/quote]Holt wanted to go, not Hughton''s fault, especially considering that Holt wanted out the previous summer when Lambert was still at the helm. It was Hughton that talked Holt into staying last season in the first place.

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If Holt is prepared to play his football in Birmingham its pretty clear our manager was a big factor in him wanting out of our club, not just a geographical thing. He already said his transfer request was about getting a 3 year contract and at that point he hadn''t kicked a ball for Hughton so you''re right that wasn''t Hughtons fault but also irrelevant to why he subsequently left last summer.

I wish Holt well, I hope it works out, apart from against us, but part of me will be gutted to see it happen in a Villa shirt if it does.

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Plus Holt was getting a fair bit of abuse from fans on Twitter for not scoring as many goals last season, to the extent that he deleted his account at one point. He didn''t say so, but I bet that had a strong influence on how much he was enjoying Carrow Road last season. Something to consider about the effect of unremitting negativity towards the team one supposedly supports.

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I do actively support Chris Hughton. Overall I think his strengths outweigh his weaknesses.

Any fair-minded person can see he''s working for Norwich to be a more attacking team. Outings in 4-4-2 are becoming increasingly common this season, which is not indicative of somebody trying to sit back and play for a draw. I don''t think playing Hoolahan in 4-4-2 at this level is a good idea either as midfielders have to work that much harder and Hoolahan is not much of a ball winner, or ball keeper for that matter. The only formation I''d really go for him in is 4-2-3-1 with our current squad so that there''s the extra cover behind him.

The players themselves seem to be a little lacking in fight. For that I think you need some of the right characters on the pitch. It disappeared with Holt, but I have some hope that Gutierrez may be bringing some of that with him. There''s not many international class players, let alone for a country like Argentina, who would have the stomach for sticking with a club after demotion to the Championship and be a massive part of battling their way back up to the Premier League.

Some interesting other comments by Gutierrez of note: That he likes Hughton''s managerial style. There can be no question that he''s chosen Norwich because Chris Hughton is here.

This first half of the season has been woeful in terms of quality. That said, there''s been some good stuff as well and we find ourselves in 15th despite all this.

Despite the crescendo of negativity from a number of the fans, the players still believe in CH. That should speak volumes in my opinion and it would be great if some of the fans could respect that and get behind all of them. He and the players will turn it around, I''m certain of it.

In Hughton''s case, playing a 4-4-2 does not mean he is trying to play more offensive. Hughton said himself and i quote,

"I thought we came here quite aggressively and played two up front to restrict the number of balls they play out from the back, because you have to try and limit their movement and the number of opportunities". This surely indicates that he saw using a 4-4-2 in a very defensive formation rather than an offensive one.

The only reason that Gutierrez ''likes'' Hughtons managerial style is because he was guaranteed to play week in week out while at Newcastle and i bet you he has been promised that again here at Norwich.

How do you know that the players believe in Hughton exactly? And how do you know the players and Hughton will turn it around?

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[quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]Plus Holt was getting a fair bit of abuse from fans on Twitter for not scoring as many goals last season, to the extent that he deleted his account at one point. He didn''t say so, but I bet that had a strong influence on how much he was enjoying Carrow Road last season. Something to consider about the effect of unremitting negativity towards the team one supposedly supports.[/quote]

Utter tripe! You really think that stupid comments from stupid fans on twitter really get to a 15 goal in a season premier league striker?

There was a lot more to the picture than you, me or anybody else on this board will ever know about the whole story.

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[quote user="lharman7"] This surely indicates that he saw using a 4-4-2 in a very defensive formation rather than an offensive one.

The only reason that Gutierrez ''likes'' Hughtons managerial style is because he was guaranteed to play week in week out while at Newcastle and i bet you he has been promised that again here at Norwich.

How do you know that the players believe in Hughton exactly? And how do you know the players and Hughton will turn it around?[/quote]If you''re adding more players up front to stop them playing out from the back, then you''re playing with more attacking emphasis.How do I know the players believe in Hughton? Apart from the fact that the Archant journos have intimated as such, with some fans being so single-mindedly against Hughton and with our position so far not being where we would have hoped, having the backing of the players is the only explanation for why the board have decided to stick with him.You can read Gutierrez'' exact thoughts on Hughton in this article from a few years back.

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[quote user="lharman7"] Overall I think his strengths outweigh his weaknesses.

Any fair-minded person can see he''s working for Norwich to be a more attacking team. Outings in 4-4-2 are becoming increasingly common this season, which is not indicative of somebody trying to sit back and play for a draw.[/quote]How, precisely do you work that one out  ? I know I''m not one for a stat fest, but there is absolutely no evidence of that.  On a fixed period basis we seem to be scoring fewer and fewer goals over the term of CH''s tenure . On the most recent time...all of three since Dec 7th (5 games).All the apologists can quote formations, form charts and those of other teams till the cows come home, but in the end it will only be the number of goals we score and points we amass that decide our fate on May 18th.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="lharman7"] Overall I think his strengths outweigh his weaknesses.

Any fair-minded person can see he''s working for Norwich to be a more attacking team. Outings in 4-4-2 are becoming increasingly common this season, which is not indicative of somebody trying to sit back and play for a draw.[/quote]How, precisely do you work that one out  ? I know I''m not one for a stat fest, but there is absolutely no evidence of that.  On a fixed period basis we seem to be scoring fewer and fewer goals over the term of CH''s tenure . On the most recent time...all of three since Dec 7th (5 games).All the apologists can quote formations, form charts and those of other teams till the cows come home, but in the end it will only be the number of goals we score and points we amass that decide our fate on May 18th.[/quote]Okay, if you''re going down to absolute basics and choose to ignore anything regarding trying to work out what he''s doing, tactics, formations, injuries, etc, we''re sitting 15th in the League at just over half way through the season and three points off 10th. Good enough. Case closed.

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[quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]Sorry, didn''t mention the goal-scoring bit. We scored 6 goals in our first 10 fixtures. In our next 10 fixtures we scored 11 goals.[/quote]But, in the end, LH, I''m afraid that , however you dress it up, that''s what''s going to keep us in the Prem, or not.And in the 10 games since West Ham we''re down to 8 goals scored., btw !

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]How many times did I hear ANYBODY would be better than Worthy....[/quote]
Yes, and the board took way too long to react which lead to steadily worse performances, a huge slide down the table and a toxic atmosphere as Carrow Road...

Are you really suggesting that you''d be happy to put up with this AGAIN, just so the board can delay swinging the axe on ''Mr Nice Guy''...
[/quote]

[Y]

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]How many times did I hear ANYBODY would be better than Worthy....[/quote]Yes, and the board took way too long to react which lead to steadily worse performances, a huge slide down the table and a toxic atmosphere as Carrow Road...Are you really suggesting that you''d be happy to put up with this AGAIN, just so the board can delay swinging the axe on ''Mr Nice Guy''...[/quote]

 

Really? How long was too long??

I''d be happy if we''d kept Worthy and never had to tolerate Grant, Roeder and Gunn.

 

[/quote]C''mon Nutty, even for someone so firmly in the pro-Worthington camp you''ve got to admit he''d long passed his best-by date. Probably by well over a season if we''re honest.I know we''ll never know but if we''d kept him in charge who''s to say we wouldn''t have endured the same horrors as we did under the next three managers, at least in terms of decline ?

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[quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]How many times did I hear ANYBODY would be better than Worthy....[/quote]Yes, and the board took way too long to react which lead to steadily worse performances, a huge slide down the table and a toxic atmosphere as Carrow Road...Are you really suggesting that you''d be happy to put up with this AGAIN, just so the board can delay swinging the axe on ''Mr Nice Guy''...[/quote]

 

Really? How long was too long??

I''d be happy if we''d kept Worthy and never had to tolerate Grant, Roeder and Gunn.

 

[/quote]C''mon Nutty, even for someone so firmly in the pro-Worthington camp you''ve got to admit he''d long passed his best-by date. Probably by well over a season if we''re honest.I know we''ll never know but if we''d kept him in charge who''s to say we wouldn''t have endured the same horrors as we did under the next three managers, at least in terms of decline ?[/quote]Having demonstrated that he was capable of good stuff and only fell short of Premier League survival by two points, who''s to say he wouldn''t have turned it around again for the better? On the whole I think that''s more likely than plummeting to League One.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]Sorry, didn''t mention the goal-scoring bit. We scored 6 goals in our first 10 fixtures. In our next 10 fixtures we scored 11 goals.[/quote]But, in the end, LH, I''m afraid that , however you dress it up, that''s what''s going to keep us in the Prem, or not.And in the 10 games since West Ham we''re down to 8 goals scored., btw ![/quote]Was waiting for somebody to discount West Ham. We scored three in that one, so obviously can''t count anything that''s remotely positive.

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Actually, this is what really f**ks me off about the outers. They move the goalposts to show everything in the worst possible light. After the 10 game unbeaten run, every stat you heard against Hughton was based from immediately after that run finished. I don''t know how any of them have got the nerve to call Hughton negative given their own attitude.

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Outers are like hipsters, everyone wants to be the first person to call disaster. If your first reaction after a defeat or setback is to rush into this board to claim how right you were then you have a problem, a brain problem.

I have concerns about the club, some of them are very pressing, but join the outers? Nah, right bunch of kn0bheads.

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[quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]Actually, this is what really f**ks me off about the outers. They move the goalposts to show everything in the worst possible light. After the 10 game unbeaten run, every stat you heard against Hughton was based from immediately after that run finished. I don''t know how any of them have got the nerve to call Hughton negative given their own attitude.[/quote]In fairness, LYB it was you that introduced the ''10 game tranche'' to this discussion.I repeat that in the ten games we''ve played since the West Ham one, we''ve scored 8 goals.Sorry if that f**cks you off, but it''s true.

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[quote user="Buh"]Outers are like hipsters, everyone wants to be the first person to call disaster. If your first reaction after a defeat or setback is to rush into this board to claim how right you were then you have a problem, a brain problem.

I have concerns about the club, some of them are very pressing, but join the outers? Nah, right bunch of kn0bheads.[/quote]''a'' defeat ?rather like pointing out how bad the weather has been this winter and told you shouldn''t say such things after a day''s rain and wind !

this debate might move on when you apologists actually begin to acknowledge that there are goalposts, never mind your bleats about moving themthe concerns from the realists ARE NOT simply the endless defeats, but the dire and failed tactics that lead to those defeats - and with little sign of Hughton being able to change and put things right, defeats are as inevitable as a man wearing concrete boots will sink in the wateras to any'' concerns about the club'' there again we differ, the debt has been paid off, with have sold out gammes, the youth sytem looks superb .. it''s only a matter of getting Mr Magoo out of the driving seat and off we go again

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[quote user="City1st"]the concerns from the realists ARE NOT simply the endless defeats, but the dire and failed tactics that lead to those defeats - and with little sign of Hughton being able to change and put things right, defeats are as inevitable as a man wearing concrete boots will sink in the water[/quote]Exactly correct.

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[quote user="City1st"]the concerns from the realists ARE NOT simply the endless defeats, but the dire and failed tactics that lead to those defeats - and with little sign of Hughton being able to change and put things right, defeats are as inevitable as a man wearing concrete boots will sink in the water

[/quote]You guys are so over the top. We don''t have ''endless defeats'', we also win games and draw them. That''s why we''re in 15th instead of at the bottom of the table. Equally, we''ve had working tactics along the way that have been disrupted by injuries.

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[quote user="......and Smith must score."][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="nutty nigel"]How many times did I hear ANYBODY would be better than Worthy....[/quote]Yes, and the board took way too long to react which lead to steadily worse performances, a huge slide down the table and a toxic atmosphere as Carrow Road...Are you really suggesting that you''d be happy to put up with this AGAIN, just so the board can delay swinging the axe on ''Mr Nice Guy''...[/quote]

 

Really? How long was too long??

I''d be happy if we''d kept Worthy and never had to tolerate Grant, Roeder and Gunn.

 

[/quote]C''mon Nutty, even for someone so firmly in the pro-Worthington camp you''ve got to admit he''d long passed his best-by date. Probably by well over a season if we''re honest.I know we''ll never know but if we''d kept him in charge who''s to say we wouldn''t have endured the same horrors as we did under the next three managers, at least in terms of decline ?[/quote]

 

Worthy never finished a season below 9th in the Champs. Nobody can say for certain what would or wouldn''t have happened but Worthy''s record indicates that we wouldn''t have dropped to League One. Something peoiple conveniently ignore. The only reason we stayed out of League One for as long as we did was Worthy''s legacy in the shape of Hucks and Dion. I think there''s ample evidence that he wouldn''t have signed as much rubbish as Grant/Roeder/Gunn. But the point relevant to now is not that Worthy was sacked but that those that followed were worse. As I keep saying the three years under Lambert were the exception rather than the rule. I''m glad I don''t have to make the decision whether to sack Hughton and the decision of who to replace him with.

 

 

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[quote user="City1st"]the concerns from the realists ARE NOT simply the endless defeats, but the dire and failed tactics that lead to those defeats - and with little sign of Hughton being able to change and put things right, defeats are as inevitable as a man wearing concrete boots will sink in the water[/quote]City 1st, you keep droning on about tactics every thread you thunder into, but do you read any of the posts from Parma Ham''s gone Mouldy or Lavanche and several others who have pointed out the variations of tactics that take place during matches?   That actually, the tactics are rather more sophisticated than you claim.   

We are imo struggling  through trying to build with new players and hampered by injuries - and a lack of confidence due to the severe pressure of the situation of being in a group of teams trying to get clear of the drop zone and into mid-table safety.

If you could reply sensibly without accusing me of "surrendering" or being "wiz" or other such gems from  your repertoire,  I''d be most grateful. 

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[quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]We don''t have ''endless defeats''[/quote]You''re right, we don''t.What we have is 52% defeats, 24% draws, and 24% winsWhat we also have is the situation where if Sunderland had won one of their games instead of losing it they''d have been on the same points as we are instead of being in 19th...that''s how tight the margins are the minute.I also still stand by the comments about dire football and failed tactics regardless of a few injuries...

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

Worthy never finished a season below 9th in the Champs. Nobody can say for certain what would or wouldn''t have happened but Worthy''s record indicates that we wouldn''t have dropped to League One. Something peoiple conveniently ignore. The only reason we stayed out of League One for as long as we did was Worthy''s legacy in the shape of Hucks and Dion. I think there''s ample evidence that he wouldn''t have signed as much rubbish as Grant/Roeder/Gunn. But the point relevant to now is not that Worthy was sacked but that those that followed were worse. As I keep saying the three years under Lambert were the exception rather than the rule. I''m glad I don''t have to make the decision whether to sack Hughton and the decision of who to replace him with.

 

 

[/quote]And it''s something to be grateful for that we''ve got McNally and co in charge with a rational outlook and some nerve to see things through rather than City 1st, Reggie et al.

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I never said anything about goalposts, that''ll be your paranoia mate. I could care less about goalposts and point scoring I''ll leave that to you guys all I said was simply that outers are kn0bheDs, I base this opinion on the outers I''ve experienced in real life, "buck-tooth wildlings" would probably be an adequate description of your average Hughton outer. Usually have a wide eyed expression, and talk like Vietnam veterans "they came outta the trees man!! Outta the trees!! Hughton out man!" Can literally bore a man to death at 10 paces, dangerous individuals.

You can box me in and make me fit any group you like, but I know myself I don''t belong to any group. I have my opinions and concerns and I could even share a few with you but you are clearly busy, not much time left after making up bad puns on hughtons around name or slating new signings that haven''t played yet.

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]We don''t have ''endless defeats''[/quote]You''re right, we don''t.What we have is 52% defeats, 24% draws, and 24% winsWhat we also have is the situation where if Sunderland had won one of their games instead of losing it they''d have been on the same points as we are instead of being in 19th...that''s how tight the margins are the minute.I also still stand by the comments about dire football and failed tactics regardless of a few injuries...[/quote]So should all teams from 10th onwards sack their managers then?

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