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The long, slow, decline of a club....and fans will turn now

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[quote user="Sussexyellow"]Now I have taken the arrival of Jonas as a sign that the board have decided to stick with Hughton.

When everybody wakes up in the morning perhaps they will think that a cup run is a distraction that may well hinder our fight to survive. Would we really want a game against a fired up D1 team 3 days before a key game against Newcastle who would have had the weekend off.

In the pre match stuff I have watched behind the words there was no enthusiasm for tonights match and that is probably right.

On now to the Hull game. Now a poor performance with no fight in that game...... well that would be a very different matter!!!

OTBC[/quote]
[Y]

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[quote user="SeattleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]
Well, results suggested so[;)] But you continually miss the point which is that even some of the most ardent worthy haters will now concede that keeping Worthy would probably have been better than Grant, Roeder and Gunn. 

 

[/quote]
Just no. Worthy was culpable when he signed dross like Jason Jarrett, Peter Thorne, Otsemobor, Andy Hughes and so on... That is why we began the decline after relegation. That is why Ashton and Green didn''t stick around as it was obvious we weren''t going back up.
I think Worthy was sacked at exactly the right time, and had it not been for incompetent choices as his successors then there is no reason we should have fallen to League one. Roeder, Grant and Gunn were all terrible appointments no better than what we already had. Lambert was a breath of fresh air. We now once again need a breath of fresh air, to breath life into the stale football.
Now you may say that this situation is similar in terms of, theres no point sacking CH unless we have a better replacement. I agree to some extent, but this really feels like deja vu. If we do stick with him, he will more than likely take us down, and re sign todays JJ, or Thorne. Right now we have a squad of players better than we have had in the previous 5 years. They all came here on the backs of good performances at their old clubs and saw us as a step up or stepping stone. Not because they were in decline or someone other teams cast offs.
A new manger now, could motivate them to keep us up, rather than seeing them leave us in the summer when its too late. After all, we are still in the mid table mix, just currently without proper leadership. We aren''t cut adrift, so with the correct approach could pick up those 16-20 points needed. Currently we will not. 
We''re only going one way right now. How does sticking make you feel this will change? After 21 games we may as well give it a bit of twist, what good does sitting on your hands do?

[/quote]

hindsight is a wonderful thing. After the end of Roeders tenure (we all remember how bad that was), Gunn came in as caretaker and we beat Barnsley 4-0, it was a breath of fresh air, we played with a freedom, and then...

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You''re obviously not getting my point and that''s fine. As I''ve tried to explain, it''s not really McNally''s fault that he doesn''t care about the club in the same way we do - it''s just a career for him.I guess what I''m saying is, that I am personally starting to lose interest as we no longer seem to have that raw passion and excitement that actually makes football so unique. I believe that''s a cultural shift in football due to the massive corporate interests of the Prem.

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[quote user="SeattleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]
Well, results suggested so[;)] But you continually miss the point which is that even some of the most ardent worthy haters will now concede that keeping Worthy would probably have been better than Grant, Roeder and Gunn. 

 

[/quote]
Just no. Worthy was culpable when he signed dross like Jason Jarrett, Peter Thorne, Otsemobor, Andy Hughes and so on... That is why we began the decline after relegation. That is why Ashton and Green didn''t stick around as it was obvious we weren''t going back up.
I think Worthy was sacked at exactly the right time, and had it not been for incompetent choices as his successors then there is no reason we should have fallen to League one. Roeder, Grant and Gunn were all terrible appointments no better than what we already had. Lambert was a breath of fresh air. We now once again need a breath of fresh air, to breath life into the stale football.
Now you may say that this situation is similar in terms of, theres no point sacking CH unless we have a better replacement. I agree to some extent, but this really feels like deja vu. If we do stick with him, he will more than likely take us down, and re sign todays JJ, or Thorne. Right now we have a squad of players better than we have had in the previous 5 years. They all came here on the backs of good performances at their old clubs and saw us as a step up or stepping stone. Not because they were in decline or someone other teams cast offs.
A new manger now, could motivate them to keep us up, rather than seeing them leave us in the summer when its too late. After all, we are still in the mid table mix, just currently without proper leadership. We aren''t cut adrift, so with the correct approach could pick up those 16-20 points needed. Currently we will not. 
We''re only going one way right now. How does sticking make you feel this will change? After 21 games we may as well give it a bit of twist, what good does sitting on your hands do?

[/quote]

 

That''s just plain and simply made up. Ashton and Green didn''t leave because of players who were signed. I just am not going to go there.

 

As for the breath of fresh air when Lambert came.... that was the exception not the norm. Deehan, Megson, O''Neill, Megson, Walker Mk2, Rioch, Hamilton, Worthington, Grant, Roeder, Gunn, Lambert, Hughton...

 

As they say in your part of the world.. you do the math!

 

 

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[quote user="I.S."]You''re obviously not getting my point and that''s fine. As I''ve tried to explain, it''s not really McNally''s fault that he doesn''t care about the club in the same way we do - it''s just a career for him.I guess what I''m saying is, that I am personally starting to lose interest as we no longer seem to have that raw passion and excitement that actually makes football so unique. I believe that''s a cultural shift in football due to the massive corporate interests of the Prem.[/quote]
My point is that you are just lashing out. Mcnally is a club employee, not a fan.
And you got to the answer yourself anyway.

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]
hindsight is a wonderful thing. After the end of Roeders tenure (we all remember how bad that was), Gunn came in as caretaker and we beat Barnsley 4-0, it was a breath of fresh air, we played with a freedom, and then...
[/quote]
Yeah with one of the worst NCFC teams we have ever had. Wasn''t Lee Croft POTS that year? Go back and re read my post about the current playing staff, then come back to me.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="SeattleCanary"]That is why we began the decline after relegation. That is why Ashton and Green didn''t stick around as it was obvious we weren''t going back up.
[/quote]

 That''s just plain and simply made up. Ashton and Green didn''t leave because of players who were signed. I just am not going to go there.

[/quote]

I didn''t refer to the players that were signed as their reason for leaving, I mentioned the whole decline, and they could see we weren''t on the way back up.

As to the the other point. Under the new regime, we have been successful in our last 4 seasons. Is there reason to think they are incapable to find someone new to carry this trend on when we are in the most attractive state squad wise, financially, and league wise we have been in donkeys years? I don''t think so.

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[quote user="SeattleCanary"][quote user="Rogue Baboon"]
hindsight is a wonderful thing. After the end of Roeders tenure (we all remember how bad that was), Gunn came in as caretaker and we beat Barnsley 4-0, it was a breath of fresh air, we played with a freedom, and then...
[/quote]
Yeah with one of the worst NCFC teams we have ever had. Wasn''t Lee Croft POTS that year? Go back and re read my post about the current playing staff, then come back to me.

[/quote]

oh i don''t disagree with any of it, just that all new managers are like a breath of fresh air for a few games - Di Canio at Sunderland for example.

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[quote user="SeattleCanary"][quote user="Rogue Baboon"]
hindsight is a wonderful thing. After the end of Roeders tenure (we all remember how bad that was), Gunn came in as caretaker and we beat Barnsley 4-0, it was a breath of fresh air, we played with a freedom, and then...
[/quote]
Yeah with one of the worst NCFC teams we have ever had. Wasn''t Lee Croft POTS that year? Go back and re read my post about the current playing staff, then come back to me.
[/quote]You know what? Tonight was a spectacular train crash. No redeeming features whatsoever other than I thought Snodgrass was creeping back towards his old self. David Fox and Becchio did at least go some way to vindicating Hughton for not using them in the Premier League. I watched it start to finish and it was humiliating. Such was my despair I actually went on Twitter and tweeted #hughtonout. Then I read some research (again) that changing the manager doesn''t make a blind bit of difference (and it goes into a lot of depth(, and realistically, we can''t get rid of the squad and start again, so I''m just going to will them to turn it around. And when push comes to shove I think Hughton''s a nice bloke. Will be back on here in the summer when we''re either still in the Premier league or not. OTBC!

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"][quote user="SeattleCanary"][quote user="Rogue Baboon"]
hindsight is a wonderful thing. After the end of Roeders tenure (we all remember how bad that was), Gunn came in as caretaker and we beat Barnsley 4-0, it was a breath of fresh air, we played with a freedom, and then...
[/quote]
Yeah with one of the worst NCFC teams we have ever had. Wasn''t Lee Croft POTS that year? Go back and re read my post about the current playing staff, then come back to me.

[/quote]

oh i don''t disagree with any of it, just that all new managers are like a breath of fresh air for a few games - Di Canio at Sunderland for example.

[/quote]
Fair enough. With the exception of Giacherrini (don''t know how to spell it) and A. Johnson at times, their squad quality is below ours, and yet Poyet is currently getting much more from that team than Di Canio did. Di Canio was the correct appointment for them to see out that season, and then they should have reappointed, as should we have in the summer.
I''d take a Di Canio effect right now until the season finishes, and then look longer term. Either way, we are becoming the true whipping boys of the league. 

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Yep, he''s a club employee. And as such, should IMO behave appropriately in public regardless of whether he actually cares. Am I not allowed to point out that I think it''s a slap in the face to the travelling support to see him joking in the crowd when we''re a shambles on the pitch? Sorry if you''re struggling to understand that my point has nothing to do with lashing out, but more to do with accountability and responsibility at the club.Also, it gives us a bit of a non-sanitised insight into those running the club. I''m starting to think a bit of complacency and over-confidence might have crept in after all our recent success, but time will tell.

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[quote user="I.S."]It''s hardly a long term decline - in relative terms we have rocketed through the leagues and have now hit a ceiling. No offence, but I''m not sure how bringing in experienced International and Premier League players, and blooding exciting youngsters, is a sign we are on the way down?I think it is more a decline in competitiveness of the top leagues of English football. I am utterly bored in footballing terms. I used to get a sense of nervous excitement when I watched us play, but that has all but disappeared.For me, it''s a combination of the dullness and predictability of the Premier League, and the realisation that the best we can hope for long-term is mid-table mediocrity and a cup run every now and again. Hughton has certainly contributed to this with his style of play, but to be honest, when he is clearly briefed to do what he feels necessary to keep us in the division it''s hardly surprising. Would bringing another manager in really alter things very much in the long-term? I very much doubt it, and that is the grim reality.I''m not sure how it''s happened, but there''s very little affinity/connection between me and and the club I have loved supporting for as long as I can remember. Success has now been defined as not losing too much. Players are earning in one month what most people would earn in at least 2 years, yet still not doing their job effectively. Casual tickets are priced insanely. The chief executive and substitute players were laughing and having a jolly evening out even though we were getting smashed by a poor team. It does just make me think "what is the point in bothering?".For me, I think I will start paying more attention to grass-roots local football rather than the vacuum-wrapped, polished turd imitating entertainment as served up by the Premiership.[/quote]

I think this is a top post and one I pretty much agree with. The Premier League is just so dull and predictable. I get absolutely no excitement out of the prospect of finishing midtable. Even the far fetched possibility of the Europa League fails to excite as it lacks prestige and teams like Swansea struggle domestically with the extra schedule. I no longer feel the buzz on match days which is such as shame as I have felt it for over 20 years until recently.

This is why I want Hughton gone. If there is no hope of winning the league or finishing with a Champions League place then I at least want to watch some decent attacking football. What''s the point of hoping for a midtable finish whilst paying a ton of cash to be bored senseless in the process? Absolutely none! At least entertain us whilst we settle for such dull mediocrity,

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[quote user="I.S."]I''m not sure how it''s happened, but there''s very

little affinity/connection between me and and the club I have loved

supporting for as long as I can remember. Success has now been defined

as not losing too much. Players are earning in one month what most

people would earn in at least 2 years, yet still not doing their job

effectively. Casual tickets are priced insanely. The chief executive and

substitute players were laughing and having a jolly evening out even

though we were getting smashed by a poor team. It does just make me

think "what is the point in bothering?".[/quote]Sadly I think this is how more and more fans are feeling I.S. - and not just Norwich fans either.Someone

recently posted a goal of the season video (from arguably our best

period) with Gossy and Ekoku as the first two candidates and seeing the

likes of Fox scampering down the wing and Crooky making sublime passes

through the midfield, I wonder how the f**k we got to the state we are

in now.We''re meant to have the best squad ever seen at this

club, yet the football on display and the results we are getting pales

in comparison to what we saw in the days of Stringer and Walker. Maybe

this is why Lambert got such a cult following during most of his tenure

here, because he brought back that excitement, he managed to get the

best out of players who arguably weren''t quite good enough for the level

they were playing at, and he did it all on a tight budget.Seeing

the state our club is in from a footballing perspective is beyond sad

at the minute, in fact it goes right past depressing and keeps on

digging.Maybe a new manager can''t bring back those golden days

we had, but I rather we actually tried to see if we can make it happen

than put up with this complete shower of f**king s**t for even a minute

longer...

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[quote user="I.S."]Yep, he''s a club employee. And as such, should IMO behave appropriately in public regardless of whether he actually cares. Am I not allowed to point out that I think it''s a slap in the face to the travelling support to see him joking in the crowd when we''re a shambles on the pitch? Sorry if you''re struggling to understand that my point has nothing to do with lashing out, but more to do with accountability and responsibility at the club.Also, it gives us a bit of a non-sanitised insight into those running the club. I''m starting to think a bit of complacency and over-confidence might have crept in after all our recent success, but time will tell.[/quote]
You really are clutching at straws, and yes, you are lashing out.

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Josh, I can''t believe Hughton is happy with the brand of football we play, but it''s part and parcel of wanting to stay in the Premier League at all costs. He''s a good figurehead to level failure at, and probably a decent fall guy for the board.

Unless you''re established, or riding on the crest of the promotion wave, I don''t think it''s too different for many other clubs. A new manager might have a short-term improvement, but long-term it''s not going to change the fact there''s no real goals for mid-table teams...

Still, we could always bring in Holloway? :)

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Some of you make me laugh and cringe in equal amounts.
Not happy when we''re not succesful, not happy when we are not little old norwich anymore, not happy we''re doing the best we can in the biggest league in the world.
Some of you have extremely short, selective footballing memories.

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Morty, your opinion of me is irrelevant. I''ve made my point and I don''t see any reason to repeat myself.

You make no effort to actually address any of the points people make, but prefer to ad-hom in an attempt to derail anything you don''t agree with.

My point about McNally was a relatively small part of my actual post on this thread, and other people have been able to debate it without needing to turn it into a p*ssing contest.

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I.S - yup those points have churned over in my head quite considerably and they''re damn depressing. Playing this way just to stay in the league. Boring football and a boring league finish. No wonder I feel disconnected to the club I''ve loved for so many years

Honestly, I just want to see some good football being played. I couldn''t give a monkeys if it was the Premiership or the Championship, I just want the club I love back. Paying £45 to go to a home match and be "entertained" by predictable football is no fun. But of course money dominates everything now. The board will "play safe" and see Hughton as the man to keep is up.

I refuse to believe Hughton''s approach is the only way to stay up though. Pochettino is doing a good job Southampton without boring their fans to death. Of course finding a manager like him is easier said then done though...

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quote user "morty" Some of you make me laugh and cringe in equal amounts. Not happy when we''re not succesful, not happy when we are not little old norwich anymore, not happy we''re doing the best we can in the biggest league in the world. Some of you have extremely short, selective footballing memories.

You have to admit the Premier League has changed though, it''s very difficult to finish higher than 10th, so it''s hard to get excited about on a footballing basis.

I love seeing the best players in the world coming to Carrow Road and I love visiting the best stadiums, but football is also about entertainment and right now the state of our football is depressing.

I''d be happy enough being a midtable team if the football was good to watch. Oddly, on a rare occasion under Hughton, we played some decent stuff vs. ManUtd on the 28th of Dec. We lost the match but the first half was fantastic and Wes ran the show. I was happy to pay the money despite us losing.

See, this is why I find Hughton so frustrating. The few occasions he actually plays a bit attacking and let''s somebody like Wes express themselves the team and crowd respond. It''s not rocket science.

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[quote user="I.S."]Morty, your opinion of me is irrelevant. I''ve made my point and I don''t see any reason to repeat myself.

You make no effort to actually address any of the points people make, but prefer to ad-hom in an attempt to derail anything you don''t agree with.

My point about McNally was a relatively small part of my actual post on this thread, and other people have been able to debate it without needing to turn it into a p*ssing contest.[/quote]
Maybe when I hear people whining and picking about trivial ridiculous things, I stop listening to them.
Oh my God, Mcnally smiled? String him up outside the club shop.

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[quote user="Josh"]quote user "morty" Some of you make me laugh and cringe in equal amounts. Not happy when we''re not succesful, not happy when we are not little old norwich anymore, not happy we''re doing the best we can in the biggest league in the world. Some of you have extremely short, selective footballing memories.

You have to admit the Premier League has changed though, it''s very difficult to finish higher than 10th, so it''s hard to get excited about on a footballing basis.

I love seeing the best players in the world coming to Carrow Road and I love visiting the best stadiums, but football is also about entertainment and right now the state of our football is depressing.

I''d be happy enough being a midtable team if the football was good to watch. Oddly, on a rare occasion under Hughton, we played some decent stuff vs. ManUtd on the 28th of Dec. We lost the match but the first half was fantastic and Wes ran the show. I was happy to pay the money despite us losing.

See, this is why I find Hughton so frustrating. The few occasions he actually plays a bit attacking and let''s somebody like Wes express themselves the team and crowd respond. It''s not rocket science.[/quote]
Yes youre right, it has changed. But constantly whining about it wont change anything. And I am sorry, to say you are happy to see us play well then lose is ridiculous.
It is what it is, its not gonna change. 

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That''s great Morty, I''m very happy you have at least that ability.

Now if as well as stopping listening, you could also stop replying, it might be possible to get the thread back on topic.

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Since when has voicing an opinion been considered whining? Or are you stuck in your ivory tower?

It was against ManU by the way, they only won because they scored from a lucky deflection, not from a counter attack due to our attacking play, but that''s a discussion for another thread. We were very unlucky to not get anything from the game.

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Actually Josh, a few weeks ago I would have thought you were crazy to prefer entertainment over a result.

There''s definitely a balance to be struck, but I would rather enjoy going to the football and get the buzz back than finish between 11th and 17th every season. In all honestly, what''s the point in being a mid-table Prem team?

I think Hughton must believes our current style is our best bet of surviving with the squad we have, so I guess he is doing the job he believes is best for the club. It''s a shame when that goes against what a lot of the fans clearly want to see. Losing that unity of everyone pulling in the same direction is clearly filtering through in all aspects of the club.

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I.S. You might be right, perhaps that''s what Hughton thinks - playing this way is the best way given our squad, but unfortunately it seems the unity is being lost throughout the club. The way I see it, we may as well try as play some decent football. We concede goals when we play cautious and concede when we play attacking. We were awful tonight, had no attacking ideas apart from the first 5 minutes yet still conceded 3 goals against a Fulham side who are hardly in form. We could easily go down playing the way we are now.

If I remember, we actually played some decent football the second half vs. West Ham in November and scored 3. Sadly these occasions seem too few and far between.

You''re right, we do need a balance. I think the best managers know when to attack, shut up shop or play ugly to get results. (not like a Holloway). But our default seems to be defensive. We have some good attacking players in Hooper, Hoolahan, Snodgrass, Fer, Pilkington, Redmond etc (presumably RVW too). I refuse to believe that there isn''t a manager who couldn''t get these players playing some decent attacking stuff that could scare Premiership defences when required and get enough wins to keep us up. I do want entertainment, but I believe entertainment could also bring results. But what do I know, Lambert is playing hoofball these days with players like Benteke and Agbonlahor in his side...

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