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nutty nigel

It'll be Delia next...

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As I predicted a month ago with Hughton still in a job the attention is turning to McNally. This was the only logical way forward for those who think they know better than Hughton so want him sacked. The alternative is for Hughton to sack himself and with that not happening the next step for the herd will be to know better than McNally should he continue to hold his nerve and stand by his man.

 

Predicting where the bandwagon goes next is a piece of cake. The same posters will continue with the same old pattern and if McNally refuses to play ball Delia will be their next target. It''s all in the archives of this message board.

 

This is not to suggest that we should just agree with anything and everything Hughton/McNally/Delia do. This message board should be to discuss different opinions. But there''s a huge difference between discussing things we don''t agree with and demanding people are sacked. Hughton/McNally/Delia see as much as any of us and more than most. I will trust them to do what''s right and keep discussing my opinions on here. What I won''t be though is arrogant enough to assume I know best and demand people are sacked.

 

 

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Nutty, when fans say "Hughton out" it''s an expression of their opinion and a feeling that CH is not the right man for the club. I don''t think you can complain about people saying that. It''s very wrong and misleading to make out that anyone who wants him out thinks they know better than him.

As a recent convert, I don''t think i myself fit in to your pidgeon whole. I don''t want Delia out, i think McNally is the best thing that has happened to this club - ever - and i think the club has a lot going for it at this moment in time. I also happen to think we are reaching a tipping point where Hughton is starting to loose the fans and we all know, you better than anyone, that this leads to only one place, and the longer it takes to get there, the more it hurts us all. You will have your view and that will be that we''re not there yet (and you know who/what i''m talking about when i say that - think Burnley), but i think fans are turning by the week and that tipping point is getting closer and closer.

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You may not mean what you say a1 buddy but the majority do. The benefit of hindsight allows you to go back to the events both before and after the Burnley game. I understand that people believe the Burnley game vindicated their nasty and hateful campaign against Worthy but then square that with Grant/Roeder/Gunn.

 

 

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Well, if incompetence continues to be tolerated it''s only natural that the gripe is continually escalated until it reaches someone willing to accept accountability. So, erm, Delia Out!!!

 

I still think the players have to accept a lot of responsibility.

 

I keep hearing that this is the best squad we''ve ever had but I don''t see any evidence for that on the field. If I was to claim that Chris Hughton was the best manager we''d ever had I''d get shot down pretty quick but I''d suggest there is as much evidence to suggest that, currently, as there is to suggest we''ve got a team full of superstars.

 

And before the usual - "He sets them up wrong!!" - "He''s too defensive!!" - "He''s ruining our players!!" - which get repeated ad nauseum, think about it and give some reason as to why this is the "Best" squad we''ve ever had. The only answer I can think of is "Price Tag" because based on what I have seen on the pitch I''m not sure there''s one of this lot that would currently make our All Time Best XI.

 

If they''re so good, they need to start showing it.

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Oh Nutty you do so talk a load of old twaddle.

Im sure you would be happy supporting Norwich right now in the conference under that loveable Mr Roedent.

I fact if it anything like league one maybe I would too, fact is Hughton has been in charge for a long time now, and the football almost without exception has been dire and the results only marginally better. Factor in the quality of players we have bought and the fact that nobody he signed can actually play the formation he requires and it really shouldn''t be a matter of if but when (the sooner the better for all concerned in my opinion)

What baffles me is not the fact that the doubters are being accused of knee jerk reactions after 16 months but the fact that there are STILL people that think something is going to change under Hughton, that really is laughable.

Right now I would honestly take Grant or Gunn to get more out of this squad than Hughton (not Roeder obviously im not completely mad)

At least they had the excuse of having a dreadful squads whats Hughtons excuse ?

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I don''t mean what i say? Sorry, i don''t follow. If i say ''Hughton Out'' i mean what i say, i want him out. Or if you prefer, "i would like a different manager to manager our football team please". I do mean that. And i also don''t think i know better than CH. It is possible to take those two positions, they are not necessarily contradictory.

Now it''s really interesting you say that about the Burnley game re vindication. You see i was a defender of NW, a "KtFer" almost to the end. But that episode should teach all fans and perhaps more importantly owners, an incredibly valuable lesson. Which is that if you completely loose the fans, and stick with your manager no matter what, you will arrive at the point where we did - fans cheering the opposition scoring (will we ever see that again?) at which point it doesn''t who the manager is or how good he is, there is no option, he has to go. No team can exist like that.

Burnley wasn''t vindication of anything. It was the end of the line. Just as if Hughton goes tomorrow, it won''t be vindication for someone who was calling for his head half way through last season. The fact we survived last season easily, and survival post Lambert was our ONLY objective, that is vindication of the Hughton supporters. But things do change. Just because he was the right man last season, doesn''t mean he''s the right man this season. Things go pear-shaped, circumstances change and that is why changes happen. Sometimes to soon, sometimes too late. But they happen.

Last season for me showed no change was required, but for me, like i said, we are very close to or beyond the point where a change is needed before we start on a slippery slope. It has nothing to do with "knowing better than the manager", it has everything to do with "can the current manager keep the good ship NCFC, with all the fans aboard, steady?"

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This rather supports a1s view that people don''t mean they actually want Hughton sacked. I would take Roeder over Gunn every time. You taking Gunn over Hughton suggests to me that you don''t just talk twaddle but you''re actually barking!

 

Let''s go the whole hog and take Doncaster over McNally get in the Tardis and go back to 2009.

 

Last season we finished 11th. In the 45 years I have been going we''ve only bettered that 4/5 times. If you chuck your toys about after that then you will rarely if ever be satisfied.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

This rather supports a1s view that people don''t mean they actually want Hughton sacked. I would take Roeder over Gunn every time. You taking Gunn over Hughton suggests to me that you don''t just talk twaddle but you''re actually barking!

[/quote]

Er, can we stop saying this please. I didn''t say that! I said "Hughton out" was an expression of an opinion because you seemed to be saying that opinions were acceptable but making out you know better than the manager is not. My point was it''s possible to want him out and not think you know better than him. Of course he knows better than me. I think we need a change because i think, based on what i see, that he is losing the support of increasing numbers of fans and as i''ve explained above, that matters. It''s a heard mentality i''m afraid, but i''m only following it because by the time the whole heard really decides that''s enough, you are likely to be in a very very bad place. Witness Wolves, Blackburn, us under Worthy etc

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Seriously you would prefer to have probably the single most divisive person ever attached to our football club (and I would include mr Chase in that) manage us rather than a club legend whose only mistake was taking the job on when he was out of his depth. He almost completely destroyed our club.

I wasn''t actually in the least concerned when we were beaten 1-7 by Colchester as the first game of the season often counts for little.

I have been watching City since the 70s and for you to put the ''achievement'' of last season into the same context of any previous city squad that finished in the top 10 is quite frankly a disgrace.

Don''t bother replying, frankly ive heard enough.

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But while Hughton continually achieves what''s expected the chances are that replacing him will be an even bigger gamble. Replacing Worthy was. As was the subsequent actions of Wolves. In fact I''d argue that the pathetic toy chucking by the Wolves fans is the main reason they can never sustain any kind of success.

 

 

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Oh Nutty you do so talk a load of old twaddle.

Im sure you would be happy supporting Norwich right now in the conference under that loveable Mr Roedent.

I fact if it anything like league one maybe I would too,
fact is Hughton has been in charge for a long time now, and the football almost without exception has been dire and the results only marginally better. Factor in the quality of players we have bought and the fact that nobody he signed can actually play the formation he requires and it really shouldn''t be a matter of if but when (the sooner the better for all concerned in my opinion)

What baffles me is not the fact that the doubters are being accused of knee jerk reactions after 16 months but the fact that there are STILL people that think something is going to change under Hughton, that really is laughable.

Right now I would honestly take Grant or Gunn to get more out of this squad than Hughton (not Roeder obviously im not completely mad)

At least they had the excuse of having a dreadful squads whats Hughtons excuse ?[/quote]A giveaway line if ever I saw one.[:)]Many people who hanker for being a big fish in a small pond seem incapable of accepting NCFC''s position in the Premier League hierarchy. Even Paul Lambert was not blind to that fact.

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Being uncompetitive in any league is without question the most depressing situation in football, probably why I would describe the 2004/5 season as the least enjoyable season for me in the last 35 years. I understand the concept of your point Ricardo and acknowledge it.

BUT

We have a much better squad than we did in 2005 and there are enough teams around us with poorer squads that seem far better prepared to win points in this league than we do. The Wolves situation is a red herring nobody is suggesting we should not replace Hughton.

Again I am happy to admit that if I was subjected to the football we have witnessed throughout the Hughton era for years to come I would seriously consider not having a season ticket (even if by some miracle it continued to be successful by some peoples strange measure of success)

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

But while Hughton continually achieves what''s expected the chances are that replacing him will be an even bigger gamble. Replacing Worthy was. As was the subsequent actions of Wolves. In fact I''d argue that the pathetic toy chucking by the Wolves fans is the main reason they can never sustain any kind of success.

[/quote]

All fair points. That demonstrate the difficulty of the balancing act that mangers and owners face. The Wolves management made some terrible decisions from the McCarthy sacking onwards that were very reminiscent of the decisions our board made post Worthington, albeit over a longer period. They got themselves in to League 1 a lot faster than we did! The pain was more drawn out for us, more intense for them!

But the Wolves saga doesn''t "prove" that it''s folly to sack managers when things aren''t going as you would like them to. Just as Newcastle sacking of Hughton for Pardew and Southampton''s of Adkins for Pochettino does not "prove" that it''s correct to sack managers when things aren''t going as you would want. What that does show is that neither approach is necessarily correct.

It''s a judgement call, and fans are entitled to make that call from their own world views. Yours is that now is not the time for a change, others that now is the time. We don''t need to kill each other over it.

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Ricardo, you hit the nail full square on the head. It''s more fun in the Champs than the PL. People won''t admit it because it appears so "littleol''norwich" but it is more fun. Games come thick and fast and very rarely do teams dominate. Only for those who rely on streams tv coverage is the PL better. The truth is that Hughton has succeeded in all his objectives so far. The truth is also that it''s boring. And the more it goes on the more boring it will become. Stoke have hung on years but their fans are bored. They hung on because they managed to eek out enough points to survive. It wasn''t fun though.

 

The cold reality is that Hughton has a total of 53 PL points since he was appointed. Villa (because Lambert was appointed at the same time) have a total of 53 PL points but they have a game in hand. Lambert has managed to eek out enough points to survive as has Hughton. Neither sets of fans are happy though. So are they both failures? Or are the expectations unrealistic?

 

 

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I think that some posters are a little more fond of dragging up the past, despite their protestations otherwise. Roeder, Gunn etc have little bearing on our current suituation, unless of course we have learnt absolutely nothing in the last 15 years about how a well goeverned organisation should operate.

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[quote user="Louis Cyphre"]I think that some posters are a little more fond of dragging up the past, despite their protestations otherwise. Roeder, Gunn etc have little bearing on our current suituation, unless of course we have learnt absolutely nothing in the last 15 years about how a well goeverned organisation should operate.
[/quote]

One thing you can be absolutely cast iron certain of is that the mistakes of the past will come back to haunt us, just as they do in nearly every other sphere of life. As such it is highly instructive to remember those mistakes and what led to them. They have every bearing on the present. That we still have people in charge who HAVE learnt is a blessing for now, but they won''t be there forever.

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Being uncompetitive in any league is without question the most depressing situation in football, probably why I would describe the 2004/5 season as the least enjoyable season for me in the last 35 years. I understand the concept of your point Ricardo and acknowledge it.

BUT

We have a much better squad than we did in 2005 and there are enough teams around us with poorer squads that seem far better prepared to win points in this league than we do. The Wolves situation is a red herring nobody is suggesting we should not replace Hughton.

Again I am happy to admit that if I was subjected to the football we have witnessed throughout the Hughton era for years to come I would seriously consider not having a season ticket (even if by some miracle it continued to be successful by some peoples strange measure of success)[/quote]Whilst agreeing with much of that and the fact that we have spent a lot of money I would argue that this only ensures that we stand still. In order to compete for a top ten place is going to require even more money. Our total spend was still less than what Spurs coughed up for a single player yet led to similar results at Man City. For some people it raised the expectations to what in hindsight they must now see as an unrealistic level.On your point about the quality of football, I assume you never supported during the sixties. Dire beyond anything you have ever seen, but simehow it never put me off.

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Spot on about the championship being a more exiting league than the PL, it always has been and always will be but that is not the argument here. We will always be a mid to lower team in this league. The argument is does our manager have the tactical and motivational nous to manage at this level, I believe that like a good championship player can''t quite make the step up, so he can''t.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

But his record suggests he can JF.

 

 

[/quote]Not if you discount the 10 match unbeaten run, the players rebellions and the teams who were on the beach.Without them he''s hardly won a game[:D]

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The OP may have a point regarding the status of the joint majority shareholder, perhaps it is time for her to cash in and sell the club to someone that will bring additional financial firepower to the club?

When you look through the Prem the vast majority of clubs have some form of wealthy benefactor wether its an oligarch, Arab , American or hedge fund, we are as a club in the minority.

Imagine if you will a world where the current majority shareholders sold to some billionaire from god knows where, equipping the club with a transfer pot we could only ever have dreamed of, what then?

Would we as a club be able to attract the megastars wether they''re managerial or playing staff? Realistically even if we offered Zlatan £300k a week he''s not going to leave Paris!

My point being is one of glass ceilings, after last seasons 11th placed finish the very most we could realistically hope for oligarc or not is Europa League and to finish inside the top ten, given the structure of the English game I just couldn''t contemplate the club ever getting beyond that sort of level.

So unless given their age they decide to sell their majority and taking into account the above points what is a realistic expectation?

For me it''s to be entertained and to have a go, Lambert would, for the most part, have a go at winning a game. he''d be buccaneering enough to do a Nigel and go ''toe tee toe'', this just has not happened through most of 2013

It''s boring, it''s negative, it''s predictable and there''s some sort of footballing wizard being paid large sums of money to try winning a game on his iPad.

Thankfully I couldn''t see him on Saturday as its like watching Subbuteo, small mercies.

Having now secured the financial long term future of the club it is indeed incumbent upon the board to ensure all this great work is not undone. Just because supporters wanted Worthington out in the past, celebrated like it was Christmas morning when Gunn got potted in the West Country doesn''t and shouldn''t ever mean that such opinions shouldn''t be voiced again.

It''s nasty, it''s unpleasant but Nice Guy Chris and his iPad holder are not the footballing future of our club, it''s too far gone and things aren''t going to improve anytime soon.

As a side issue the injury list shrank remarkably when O''Neil took over at Villa, it may do the same at Colney with the right changes being made.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="KeelansGlove"]Being uncompetitive in any league is without question the most depressing situation in football, probably why I would describe the 2004/5 season as the least enjoyable season for me in the last 35 years. I understand the concept of your point Ricardo and acknowledge it.

BUT

We have a much better squad than we did in 2005 and there are enough teams around us with poorer squads that seem far better prepared to win points in this league than we do. The Wolves situation is a red herring nobody is suggesting we should not replace Hughton.

Again I am happy to admit that if I was subjected to the football we have witnessed throughout the Hughton era for years to come I would seriously consider not having a season ticket (even if by some miracle it continued to be successful by some peoples strange measure of success)[/quote]Whilst agreeing with much of that and the fact that we have spent a lot of money I would argue that this only ensures that we stand still. In order to compete for a top ten place is going to require even more money. Our total spend was still less than what Spurs coughed up for a single player yet led to similar results at Man City. For some people it raised the expectations to what in hindsight they must now see as an unrealistic level.On your point about the quality of football, I assume you never supported during the sixties. Dire beyond anything you have ever seen, but simehow it never put me off.[/quote]

 

I enjoyed watching us being dismantled by Clough''s Derby County, ricardo! As far as the spending on the squad and expectations are concerned, I would say this. A top-ten finish, as called for by Bowkett, is highly unlikely. But what bothers myself and others is that we don''t seem to be getting as much out of the squad as we  should. Cantiaci put it well a day or two back - that under Lambert (and no I am not one of those pining for his return) the squad was greater than the sum of its parts and under Hughton this season it is less than the sum of its parts.To put it another way, the summer splurge (ninth highest net spending in Europe) shouldn''t have taken us into the top ten. But it should have kept us level with those clubs around us who also spent money. But it hasn''t. Our points per game has dropped from last season''s 1.15 to 0.91. So instead of heading for 44 points and safety we are on course for 34/35 points and a very serious danger of relegation.

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Interesting point from Greeno. I am sure Bowkett said that in order to remain in the PL the club would need rich owners. I seem to remember it being part of the plan. Maybe Ricardo remedmbers too?

 

Yet I''m also pretty sure when the question was asked recently the reply was it was no longer part of the plan.

 

What changed?

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Interesting point from Greeno. I am sure Bowkett said that in order to remain in the PL the club would need rich owners. I seem to remember it being part of the plan. Maybe Ricardo remedmbers too?

 

Yet I''m also pretty sure when the question was asked recently the reply was it was no longer part of the plan.

 

What changed?

 

 

[/quote]

 

What Bowkett said perhaps three years ago was that without rich owners we needed to expand the stadium to a 35,000-seat capacity to stay financially viable in the PL. But that was before the new mega-TV deal. That may have changed the equation. Or the equation hasn''t changed.

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Simples, it''s more of a ''come and get me'' than ''we are screwed, can somebody please give us some wedge?''

All joking aside I do think this is the fulcrum upon which the direction of the club rests, wether or not it''s what we really want is another matter.

What we do know is Mr Bridger (Chairman) is extremely experienced at brokering the sale of multi million pound businesses, nobody is getting NCFC on the cheap now are they?

Poor old ITFC, it makes those happy scenes after Evans takeover underneath the Jarrold all the more entertaining

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="KeelansGlove"]Being uncompetitive in any league is without question the most depressing situation in football, probably why I would describe the 2004/5 season as the least enjoyable season for me in the last 35 years. I understand the concept of your point Ricardo and acknowledge it.

BUT

We have a much better squad than we did in 2005 and there are enough teams around us with poorer squads that seem far better prepared to win points in this league than we do. The Wolves situation is a red herring nobody is suggesting we should not replace Hughton.

Again I am happy to admit that if I was subjected to the football we have witnessed throughout the Hughton era for years to come I would seriously consider not having a season ticket (even if by some miracle it continued to be successful by some peoples strange measure of success)[/quote]Whilst agreeing with much of that and the fact that we have spent a lot of money I would argue that this only ensures that we stand still. In order to compete for a top ten place is going to require even more money. Our total spend was still less than what Spurs coughed up for a single player yet led to similar results at Man City. For some people it raised the expectations to what in hindsight they must now see as an unrealistic level.On your point about the quality of football, I assume you never supported during the sixties. Dire beyond anything you have ever seen, but simehow it never put me off.[/quote]

 

I enjoyed watching us being dismantled by Clough''s Derby County, ricardo! As far as the spending on the squad and expectations are concerned, I would say this. A top-ten finish, as called for by Bowkett, is highly unlikely. But what bothers myself and others is that we don''t seem to be getting as much out of the squad as we  should. Cantiaci put it well a day or two back - that under Lambert (and no I am not one of those pining for his return) the squad was greater than the sum of its parts and under Hughton this season it is less than the sum of its parts.To put it another way, the summer splurge (ninth highest net spending in Europe) shouldn''t have taken us into the top ten. But it should have kept us level with those clubs around us who also spent money. But it hasn''t. Our points per game has dropped from last season''s 1.15 to 0.91. So instead of heading for 44 points and safety we are on course for 34/35 points and a very serious danger of relegation.

[/quote]Bang on Purple!It doesnt make a person any less of a supporter because they recognise what you''ve posted. People have genuine concerns that we''re in relegation danger. To ignore it just smacks of people wanting to back Hughton for the sheer hell of it.

Showing anti Hughton concerns is perfectly acceptable to me.

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