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Matt Morriss

How much longer & the Hughton apologists

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How much longer have we got to endure this shambles?

The problems we have have been evidenced numerous times now. We all know the issues and we see them week in week out. Take the 1st halves of our last 3 games for example. Man City 4-0 down at halftime, 2-0 at Newcastle and the West Ham first half, while only being 1-0 was the most gutless unmotivated passionless performance i think ive ever seen from a City side.

Its obvious that Hughton and Calderwood have no idea how to motivate the team before matches and it took some of the senior players to stand up and throw around some harsh words at half time in the West Ham game to get a response from the team.

Incidentally the Pinkun reported this as Hughtons handy work, saying he ''stood back'' and let the senior guys do the team talk. This is obviously rubbish and the truth more likely being Hughton was drowned out by more assertive and louder voices in the dressing room, probably coupled with a frustration from some of the players at the lack of any form of motivation and tactial speeches prior leading to a pathetic first half.

And the Hughton in''ers, the apologists, surely you must have seen the light by now? Id actually like the people behind Hughton to clearly give their reasons why he should stay in charge an list the positives of his regime, apart from the 10 match unbeaten run cause thats history, and the 11th place last season as that was fortunate and didnt tell the true picture.

If the 11th place was a true reflection of Hughtons performance, given the fact he''s strengthened the team, then surely we shouldnt be far off 11th now? if thats the real picture?

But no, the real picture is we find ourselves exactly where we were prior to those last two games last season, hovering above and in the bottom 3 and battling relegation.

Again tho Hughton in''ers please list your reasons for cause theres a massive list of reasons why he has to go.

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Fail to win saturday and its game over. I dont want us to not win but would like too see hughton gone, hoolahan and

murphy 89th minute was the final straw for me.

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Post the massive list and then we can judge.

 

I''d start with 11th place last season as a reason to show faith.

 

You can have the first half against West Ham andf I''ll raise you the second half.

 

I still think keeping Hughton is a safer gamble than getting rid. But there''s a lot of unknowns that could influence my thinking. We all haver to hope the board have the full picture and I trust them to do what''s best.

 

 

 

 

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Just as someone noted that I was wasting my time reasoning with the apoliogists in the "gutless" thread, Hucks, I''m afraid I''ll offer you the same advice.

It''s your fourth paragraph that''s the sticking point here. Somewhat naively you inquire whether they have seen the light yet. I''ll let you draw your own conclusions......

As for their reasons; well I asked much the same question of one of their leading lights only yesterday, and the (I assume , serious) reply was that only when the situation is hopeless and beyond redemption would he feel it fit to change the manager.

Says it all, really, and that, in a nutshell is why I feel you are wating your time with this albeit perfectly reasonable thread.

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Most of your post OP seems to be based on what you "know" or rather assume to have happened at half time against West Ham.

Unless you have some evidence to back your assumptions, you are asking us to debate against your fantasy.

No thanks.

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[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"].....

Incidentally the Pinkun reported this as Hughtons handy work, saying he ''stood back'' and let the senior guys do the team talk. This is obviously rubbish and the truth more likely being Hughton was drowned out by more assertive and louder voices in the dressing room, probably coupled with a frustration from some of the players at the lack of any form of motivation and tactial speeches prior leading to a pathetic first half.

[/quote]

     

The Pinkun reported on what Robert Snodgrass said because he was there, unlike you, Snodgrass praised the manager for his tactical awareness, we must assume that these events happened because Robert Snodgrass was there, we are able to dismiss your rambling lunacy as unlike Snodgrass you were not there.

 

     

 

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Just as someone noted that I was wasting my time reasoning with the apoliogists in the "gutless" thread, Hucks, I''m afraid I''ll offer you the same advice. It''s your fourth paragraph that''s the sticking point here. Somewhat naively you inquire whether they have seen the light yet. I''ll let you draw your own conclusions...... As for their reasons; well I asked much the same question of one of their leading lights only yesterday, and the (I assume , serious) reply was that only when the situation is hopeless and beyond redemption would he feel it fit to change the manager. Says it all, really, and that, in a nutshell is why I feel you are wating your time with this albeit perfectly reasonable thread.[/quote]

 

What gang is it now? Apologists?? Who are their leading lights??

 

LOL

 

You negative nancy boys don''t have the stomach for a fight. You have no nerve. You capitulate at a sniff of the bottom three. I reckon you come from weak stock[:O]

 

The board are made of stronger stuff and I believe they will act if they feel it''s in the best interests of the club. They stand to lose a lot more than any of us. So us percies will continue to support the club which is all any of us can do.

 

 

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At a tangent, I see Paddy Davitt has come up with two articles ("The mood music must change for Norwich City" and "Norwich City''s travel sickness a concern for Chris Hughton") about away performances. The former piece is much more critical of this manager than anything I''ve seen before from an EDP staffer. Whether Davitt senses a change might be in the offing and is positioning himself accordingly is a question.

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''The mood music must change'' article for me places his opinion firmly in the out camp in everything other than saying it, which he obviously cant.

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The problem with our away form this season can be summed up in just four letters. Hull.

 

Spurs, Man City, Arsenal, Newcastle, Stoke and Hull. Had we got a result at Hull we wouldn''t be having this debate. But we didn''t and that meant to make the record respectable we needed to get something somewhere more difficult. Newcastle was our first chance and we blew it. West Brom will be the next chance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

The problem with our away form this season can be summed up in just four letters. Hull.

 

Spurs, Man City, Arsenal, Newcastle, Stoke and Hull. Had we got a result at Hull we wouldn''t be having this debate. But we didn''t and that meant to make the record respectable we needed to get something somewhere more difficult. Newcastle was our first chance and we blew it. West Brom will be the next chance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Reading this post just makes me thankful that I do not suffer from dementia

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[quote user="Mark rivers cod piece"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

The problem with our away form this season can be summed up in just four letters. Hull.

 

Spurs, Man City, Arsenal, Newcastle, Stoke and Hull. Had we got a result at Hull we wouldn''t be having this debate. But we didn''t and that meant to make the record respectable we needed to get something somewhere more difficult. Newcastle was our first chance and we blew it. West Brom will be the next chance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote] Reading this post just makes me thankful that I do not suffer from dementia[/quote]

 

Replying to this one just reminds me just how much I disliked school...

 

We could carry on like this or you could perhaps point out the fault in my post.

 

 

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"].....

Incidentally the Pinkun reported this as Hughtons handy work, saying he ''stood back'' and let the senior guys do the team talk. This is obviously rubbish and the truth more likely being Hughton was drowned out by more assertive and louder voices in the dressing room, probably coupled with a frustration from some of the players at the lack of any form of motivation and tactial speeches prior leading to a pathetic first half.

[/quote]

     

The Pinkun reported on what Robert Snodgrass said because he was there, unlike you, Snodgrass praised the manager for his tactical awareness, we must assume that these events happened because Robert Snodgrass was there, we are able to dismiss your rambling lunacy as unlike Snodgrass you were not there.

 

     

 

[/quote]

How is it rambling lunacy?

Im referring to what i read, and it was reported that there where stern words exchanged at half time, and that Hughton took a back seat and let the players and louder voices take over.

How do you read that set of circumstances TCC? Do you really believe that Hughton stepped back and masterminded the players blow up in a brilliant stroke of man management and tactical genius?

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Its rambling lunacy because you weren''t there yet you seem to have some kind on insight as to what was happening, go back and read what Snodgrass said.

I posted this on another thread yesterday, Hughton isn''t the only manager who employs this piece of man management;

"  It doesn''t prove the theory, its what a lot of managers do, they leave the players alone for a few minutes to have a moan at each other then they speak to them, Wenger says that he listens at the door to hear what being said, Warnock said this morning on Talksport that he used to go into the showers and wait until the players had stopped shouting at each other before he would come in and shout at them all."

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Post the massive list and then we can judge.

 

I''d start with 11th place last season as a reason to show faith.

 

You can have the first half against West Ham andf I''ll raise you the second half.

 

I still think keeping Hughton is a safer gamble than getting rid. But there''s a lot of unknowns that could influence my thinking. We all haver to hope the board have the full picture and I trust them to do what''s best.

 

 

 

 

[/quote]What NN said

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something needs to happen we have been dire, even westham that first have was cack, we dont seem to have any desire especially away, we usually go a goal down early, never look like we can win a game. Can you see us doing what villa did last night, we would not have the fight for itand this is no pro Lambert post, just referring to the game last nite, Villa came out fighting, gave it a go, we roll over.I really fear for us this year and i have said before we are playing Palace at the wrong time too, heres hoping i am wrong.

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Thought I''d give this thread a few hours to develop.

A few interesting points, but from Nige and the happy clappers, well surprise surprise, no, nothing new to report except the usual diatribe..... we are all lily livered pinkoes, the only bad result this season was at Hull, too much of a gamble changing the manager, Lambert''s done no better....you know, the same old tedious claptrap.

Haven''t these people got anything new to say? If not why don''t they shut up until they do ?

So, Hucks, regrettably, my advice remains the same as it was at lunchtime : ie stop wasting your time on them.

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I think some people seem to think you have to like Hughton to not want a change in manager. There are some that simply think a) It is a risk to change the management structure at this stage or b) There isn''t a valid candidate available at this time that would kick us on long term.I fall into this camp now, I have in the past backed him purely because I believed in him as a man and a coach. The last month or so has changed my opinion. I still respect him as a man and as an excellent coach but in my view his tactics are lacking creativity and he doesn''t have certain qualities we need to go up a gear and be a Southampton, Swansea, West Brom. I do think we will stay up with him in charge but in an ugly uninspiring gritty way which will alienate him from a large proportion of the fans further. I think he and the board should have a frank discussion at the end of the season, admit the fit isn''t the best, club is still in Premiership, Hughton has 2 years of Premier management on his CV, shake hands and we all start again afresh.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]I think some people seem to think you have to like Hughton to not want a change in manager. There are some that simply think a) It is a risk to change the management structure at this stage or b) There isn''t a valid candidate available at this time that would kick us on long term.I fall into this camp now, I have in the past backed him purely because I believed in him as a man and a coach. The last month or so has changed my opinion. I still respect him as a man and as an excellent coach but in my view his tactics are lacking creativity and he doesn''t have certain qualities we need to go up a gear and be a Southampton, Swansea, West Brom. I do think we will stay up with him in charge but in an ugly uninspiring gritty way which will alienate him from a large proportion of the fans further. I think he and the board should have a frank discussion at the end of the season, admit the fit isn''t the best, club is still in Premiership, Hughton has 2 years of Premier management on his CV, shake hands and we all start again afresh.[/quote]

 

I understand the argument but I think the board would find it very hard to sack a manager who had fulfilled the basic goal of survival two seasons running.

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Absolutely spot on Purple . I''m sure that was the problem last summer. We''d had month after month of pure dross, but two luck wins right at the death muddied the waters, and, as you say, it''s difficult to sack someone on the strength of an eleventh place finish.

Ultimately though, and is this not the crux of the matter, but can we afford to "wait till the end of the season " to change the manager, as that seems to be in the finish what is being demanded ?. As things stand at the moment hertford''s assertion that the "club still in the Premiership" is looking more and more far fetched.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Absolutely spot on Purple . I''m sure that was the problem last summer. We''d had month after month of pure dross, but two luck wins right at the death muddied the waters, and, as you say, it''s difficult to sack someone on the strength of an eleventh place finish.

Ultimately though, and is this not the crux of the matter, but can we afford to "wait till the end of the season " to change the manager, as that seems to be in the finish what is being demanded ?. As things stand at the moment hertford''s assertion that the "club still in the Premiership" is looking more and more far fetched.[/quote]My bet is that if we stay up then he will still be here for next season. Lots could happen to force the Board''s hand but IMO it would take getting cut adrift or a major "fans rebellion" before any action on that front.It depends on what you wish for but like every other manager in the game, he will stand or fall on the results.

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I still fancy the highly effective but non aggressive white hanky waiving protest. Highly visible and their is no doubt as to whether they crowd support Hapless or not.

So on Saturday everyone pack their Hankies!!!!

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Absolutely spot on Purple . I''m sure that was the problem last summer. We''d had month after month of pure dross, but two luck wins right at the death muddied the waters, and, as you say, it''s difficult to sack someone on the strength of an eleventh place finish.

Ultimately though, and is this not the crux of the matter, but can we afford to "wait till the end of the season " to change the manager, as that seems to be in the finish what is being demanded ?. As things stand at the moment hertford''s assertion that the "club still in the Premiership" is looking more and more far fetched.[/quote]My bet is that if we stay up then he will still be here for next season. Lots could happen to force the Board''s hand but IMO it would take getting cut adrift or a major "fans rebellion" before any action on that front.It depends on what you wish for but like every other manager in the game, he will stand or fall on the results.[/quote]

For what it is worth I assume that if Hughton is still the manager after the WBA game then he will have the job until the end of the season.

The board will have to trust his judgment on January signings and then trust that he will - if he doesn''t straight away - start to get the best out of the supposedly revitalised squad.

It would make little sense to keep him on and then sack him in, say, March.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="hertfordyellow"]I think some people seem to think you have to like Hughton to not want a change in manager. There are some that simply think a) It is a risk to change the management structure at this stage or b) There isn''t a valid candidate available at this time that would kick us on long term.I fall into this camp now, I have in the past backed him purely because I believed in him as a man and a coach. The last month or so has changed my opinion. I still respect him as a man and as an excellent coach but in my view his tactics are lacking creativity and he doesn''t have certain qualities we need to go up a gear and be a Southampton, Swansea, West Brom. I do think we will stay up with him in charge but in an ugly uninspiring gritty way which will alienate him from a large proportion of the fans further. I think he and the board should have a frank discussion at the end of the season, admit the fit isn''t the best, club is still in Premiership, Hughton has 2 years of Premier management on his CV, shake hands and we all start again afresh.[/quote]

 

I understand the argument but I think the board would find it very hard to sack a manager who had fulfilled the basic goal of survival two seasons running.

[/quote]Tony Pulis secured survival for Stoke, he and the club still parted company because of the staleness of the manner in which they achieved it. You may be right I don''t know but I think the Stoke situation is v similar to ours to be honest.

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It''s an interesting one, Ricardo. I think you are probably right about this, but it would not take getting "cut adrift" in the commonly accepted use of the word...ie 10 points from the nearest non-relegation place or similar. I suspect that 6 or so clubs will be locked in a real dogfight by the New Year, and, sadly , I think we would be one of them.

My take is , if that happens and particularly if we have less than favourable results v Palace, Swansea and Fulham, combined with no discernable improvement away that there WILL be a fans'' rebellion. It could happen on Saturday if it all goes tits up v C Pal.

As you mentioned this, what is your take on it ? And at what stage do others think that the supporters could start to REALLY voice their opinion at Carrow Rd and elsewhere ?

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="hertfordyellow"]I think some people seem to think you have to like Hughton to not want a change in manager. There are some that simply think a) It is a risk to change the management structure at this stage or b) There isn''t a valid candidate available at this time that would kick us on long term.I fall into this camp now, I have in the past backed him purely because I believed in him as a man and a coach. The last month or so has changed my opinion. I still respect him as a man and as an excellent coach but in my view his tactics are lacking creativity and he doesn''t have certain qualities we need to go up a gear and be a Southampton, Swansea, West Brom. I do think we will stay up with him in charge but in an ugly uninspiring gritty way which will alienate him from a large proportion of the fans further. I think he and the board should have a frank discussion at the end of the season, admit the fit isn''t the best, club is still in Premiership, Hughton has 2 years of Premier management on his CV, shake hands and we all start again afresh.[/quote]

 

I understand the argument but I think the board would find it very hard to sack a manager who had fulfilled the basic goal of survival two seasons running.

[/quote]Tony Pulis secured survival for Stoke, he and the club still parted company because of the staleness of the manner in which they achieved it. You may be right I don''t know but I think the Stoke situation is v similar to ours to be honest.[/quote]

Pulis had been at Stoke for six or seven seasons, and then staleness can be a factor. I really cannot see how Hughton could be sacked after just two seasons, even if survival had been rather grittily achieved.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]It''s an interesting one, Ricardo. I think you are probably right about this, but it would not take getting "cut adrift" in the commonly accepted use of the word...ie 10 points from the nearest non-relegation place or similar. I suspect that 6 or so clubs will be locked in a real dogfight by the New Year, and, sadly , I think we would be one of them.

My take is , if that happens and particularly if we have less than favourable results v Palace, Swansea and Fulham, combined with no discernable improvement away that there WILL be a fans'' rebellion. It could happen on Saturday if it all goes tits up v C Pal.

As you mentioned this, what is your take on it ? And at what stage do others think that the supporters could start to REALLY voice their opinion at Carrow Rd and elsewhere ?[/quote]

As a long dead Prime minister once said when asked what would change things "Events dear boy, events"If as you say it all goes tits up v Palace then CR will be an unpleasant place to be come 5pm on Saturday.

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If it all goes tits up Saturday I can guarantee their will be calls for him to be sacked, and rightly so.

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I don''t think it will go wrong on Saturday. I''ve got this sense that we can do just enough at home to survive. But this keeps Hughton in a job - like West Ham. This masks the fact that we could do much better without him. Like most on here I have no confidence in him. We have the players to be better than fighting relegation.

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Quite so, FTW.

It really is a pity that so many of the apologists on here are so happy to accept second best. Wouldn''t you have thought that they would set their sights a little higher ?

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