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Is hughton the problem or is the premier league just boring?

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First off this thread is not intended to be a hughton in/out thread so can we try and keep to the subject.

Given the money involved in the pl now a majority of teams are simply happy to survive and appear to lack the ambition to want to improve on that. This is a recipe for a dull league where managers know that all the need to do is win at home against the lessor teams, pick up the odd point on the road and you will be safe.

All premier league games are becoming more and more negative, the 5 man midfield is now the norm and the six man midfield is not seen as unusual!

Can we really expect any better, lambert left because he couldn''t take the club any further and he is right because we will never challenge the top 5/6 and the only ambition of the rest of the league is to survive.

Best league in world or most boring league in the world, discuss.

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Agreed. Very boring.

 

It''s a tough one though, because although the Championship is fun, it''s only fun if you''re winning games and competing and near the top (I think so anyway) - which then obviously brings back promotion to the Premier League where the dull-ness sets in again! So you can''t win really. Obviously none of us would want a return to those dour seasons in the Championship from the late 90s and the late 00s, with 15th place finishes, but like you say, what have we got to aim for other than survival? We don''t even ever look like going anywhere in the cups.

 

I still think the League One season is the most I have enjoyed a season for many years, closely followed by the season after.

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Very boring league. Would be better if we were playing better, but ultimately we are just striving to be average.

I lived in hope that the big teams would feck off and form their own European League, giving those left the chance to create a more level playing field, but this possibility seems to be receding.

I am seriously going to go and watch more local football.

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If the big teams left, so would all the money. Hate to say it, but nobody is really going to be interested in WBA versus Norwich.

I think because the stakes are so high, teams go into their shell a bit.

The best we can hope for is to emulate Swansea and Southampton and have some exciting footy. Even then we''ll eventually lose more than we win.

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Football for us and certain number of clubs have entered a cul-de-sac as it were.  
For the clubs themselves it''s really just about money.  For the fans  it''s just stale entertainment.

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Would it really be such a problem if all the money left? The money is the problem as it creates such high stakes.

If everyone had less money it would level the playing field and close the gap between the champ, thus relegation becomes less of a problem and in theory would result in teams playing more exciting football.

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Reality begins to dawn for some of you.I''m sure if you ask nicely we can easily get relegated to League 1 again so we can be the big fish in a small pond.Be careful what you wish for. It might not end so well next time.

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It''s not going to end well in the long run anyway.  Inevitably we''ll get relegated at some point, whether it''s this season, or next etc.  Our best players will sod off, and it''s off we go again chasing the Murdoch Moolah of the EPL.

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It''s sad that we will get relegated at some point but I agree it''s inevitable. And it''s that fear that stops investment on the stadium. We laugh at Wolves but it''s frightening. Their board built the stand. I expect they still have their parachute payments but they''ve got to get two promotions to return. The league income drops from 70m to 5m after the payments run out. Bowkett always comments how difficult it is to run a business with those parameters. So I''m like mystified how people can come on here and accuse the board of having their heads in the sand. They have to run that business and know what''s at stake. But I''m waffling as usual...

 

Bottom line is it is boring. We knew it would be. There''s no fun. It''s big business caught up in a soap opera created by Sky TV. And the best place to watch a soap opera is on TV. You get all the angles, the gossip, the analysts, the interviews etc. The worst place to watch it is in the stadiums. And there''s no fun in them. Of course it''s not just Norwich either. We''ve seen some crap games home and away. Games where both sides are abysmal. But we collected enough points from those games to stay up so we''re in the money. Well, the footballers are in the money. We''re not because we''re paying season tickets and sky sports subscriptions. I still love going to Carrow Road and the occasional away game. But more and more it''s the bonds and social interaction with other supporters that motivate me. Not the football anymore. If we were relegated it would be a blow for the following summer. But once the season starts we''d be just as happy in the lower league. We always are. But the brand would suffer enormously...

 

 

 

 

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Just wanted to bump your post, Nutty, because it''s absolutely spot on.

How long can the present situation last? God knows. But I''m pretty sure football will evolve - perhaps become completely virtual? And we can start enjoying it at a local level again.

Nah. Ain''t gonna happen. But something will ...

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It''s a dirty admission but I agree pretty much entirely with what''s been said and indeed NN hits the nail right on the head.

Truth be told I never really expected to read such comments, I thought it was just me but the Prem is proving, in its third season, to be all a bit bloody ponderous.

Yes it''s fantastic that the club is is such great health, after two share issues, rebates etc to know that with the continuing stewardship of the Chairman and Cheif Exec will continue this excellent work.

The true litmus test of just how vile the Prem has become was on a tram on the way back from the Ethiad in May surrounded by braying Mancs.

The boasting about their billions and that we could never ever compete, that we were only jealous as we would ultimately fail in the Prem etc etc,

All deeply vulgar and atypical of what''s wrong. My suggestion that being in the presence was on a par with having Micky Carroll moving in next door brought much vitriol in my direction from such hideous looking Shaun Ryder clone

But it is all very much Lottery Winner behaviour in the Prem, the blowing of obscene amounts of loot on nothing, the lurid headlines, greed, avarice pretty much all of the deadly sins.

Thing is we bought the ticket and won, sort of but not really, we need an Oligarc but we don''t really, so now what?

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See what I mean, Nige. When we get away from all the stats, CH in/out , is this season better than last stuff ,you are capable of writing some good points, and I agree with nearly all of what you''ve posted.

I''d certainly say that NCFC , when it got to the 11th place finish last season , it represented pretty much the zenith of what is realistically achievable. Mid table mediocrity (and who knows, a cup run...well we can but hope!) is about the best that we can hope for.

However I do not agree that every season should be a relegation dogfight though. We are no worse off than over half the teams in this league, so with the right scouting,recruitment, and management there is absolutely no reason why we should not do what Stoke have done, and Bolton/Blackburn did for so long.

One final point, and maybe this is a little mischievous, but it tells us all a lot about your views and forum persona that you openly admit to mainly going to see Norwich City for the social interaction , the craic, The football comes second.

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It is one of the most ironic things about The Championship, everyone loves it but getting promoted out of it is their ambition.

     

Going from winning the majority of games to get promoted to struggling to pick up points is the hardest change and some supporters never adapt to it. At the moment QPR fans probably think that this season is way better than last season but if they get promoted they''ll be happy.

      

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What are you all comparing the current Prem season to ?  A lot of short memories I think.

 

If you look back 25 years, we had a few fantastic years at the start when we finished 3rd, got into Europe etc, but then we were relegated and we had 15 years with mainly utter dross in the 2nd tier.  Ok we got to the playoffs one year, and were promoted as champions under Worthy and came straight back down.  But the rest of the time we were mid-table in the 2nd tier and it was far, far worse than the current season - basically similar results but against the likes of Port Vale.

 

And again when we went down to L1, we''ve had a fantastic run since then, and I''d include last season with the wins against Man U, Arsenal and Man C etc.  But we are getting used to playing the big teams and take it for granted.  We''d certainly miss it if we are relegated.  And there''s no guarantee we''d be able to bounce back quickly.

 

So is it Hughton or the Prem ?  No, it''s people who take for granted playing in the Prem and have forgotten the dreadful football we used to watch every week when we were in the Champ/Div 1. 

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Don''t think so ICF. This prem is nothing like the one we were successful in. The only people who benefit from this are those who benefit from the wider media coverage. As supporters we have the status of premier league but status doesn''t help you see through a man in front of you with a camera. Status is the only benefit for supporters in the stadium.

 

 

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My point is that when we finished 3rd in the Prem and got into Europe, or won promotions under Lambert, those were exceptional years and finishing mid-table in the Prem is now something many on here are taking for granted.  But we shouldn''t compare this year to those few amazing seasons - the true comparison is with the normal periods of our history like the long spell we had in the Champ/Div 1.  And most seasons then were truly dire, much worse than now.

 

A lot of it is what you''re used to.  When we finished 12th in the Prem under Lambert it was thrilling but a lot of that was the excitement of being able to survive after so long away.  People forget getting thrashed at Man C or the soulless display at Sunderland.   Last year was equally good IMO with some great results against big teams.  But many on here were unhappy for most of last season.  And I think that''s because of their short memories (for the ones who are genuine City fans, obviously quite a few trolls have appeared too).

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I totally agree with a lot of that buddy. I''ve been going for over 45 years and in all that time I think we''ve finished higher than last season on 5 occasions. For 9/10ths of the time we were below last season''s 11th. But back in the 70/80 early 90s the division was nothing like it was now. Yes Liverpool dominated a lot of it but the top four was made up of dozens off different club''s over the years. Every side played to finish as high as they could and for at least 2/3rds of the league Europe was an achievable goal. In this league staying up is all that really matters. But ultimately it only REALLY matters to the brand. Because the club being "in the money" still sees ticket prices increase each year. Being "in the money" ultimately applies to only the players.

 

 

 

 

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And it''s a perfectly fair point ICF.

Of course in any season, there will be poor displays and result''s you''d rather forget. I don''t suppose Man U fans, used as they are to success, fondly remember recent maulings at the hands of Citeh !

But surely it''s a case of the overriding tone of performances/results. Sure we had the wins over MU and Arsenal, but are you seriously suggesting that they were not outweighed by the turgid displays of Jan, Feb Mar and Apr ?

Where you are right is that people need to decide what they want. I''m not sure that I agree however that the displays in Lge One were dire, but then again you had to put them into context. Ultimately, we need to decide whether we want the excitement of table topping jamborees in Lg 1/ Champ, or grinding out stuff to keep us mid table in the Prem.

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Well, that''s what I''m trying to get at Reggie.  I agree the L1 year was great, but I''d count that as one of the exceptional seasons.

 

The comparison for me is between many years of turgid mid-table contests in the Champ/Div 1, compared to struggling in mid-table against some of the best teams in the world - which is this season.

 

Many are complacently assuming that if we were relegated, we''d be at the top of the table in the Champ the following season.  But I also remember under Chase when we were relegated, the club produced those "On loan to Division 1 - for one season only" T-Shirts.  Which left a very bitter taste in the mouth.

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The three season''s following 2009 were exceptional. I said so at the time and was laughed at. But you''ll be lucky to see the like of it again in your lifetime. And certainly not in THIS premier league.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I totally agree with a lot of that buddy. I''ve been going for over 45 years and in all that time I think we''ve finished higher than last season on 5 occasions. For 9/10ths of the time we were below last season''s 11th. But back in the 70/80 early 90s the division was nothing like it was now. Yes Liverpool dominated a lot of it but the top four was made up of dozens off different club''s over the years. Every side played to finish as high as they could and for at least 2/3rds of the league Europe was an achievable goal. In this league staying up is all that really matters. But ultimately it only REALLY matters to the brand. Because the club being "in the money" still sees ticket prices increase each year. Being "in the money" ultimately applies to only the players.[/quote]

 

I take your point Nutty, since the mid-90s the Prem has become ever more heavily dominated by a handful of top teams, and for the rest it''s all about survival.  It''s impossible to imagine Villa winning the title now (and didn''t they go on to win the European Cup ?) like they did one year back in the 80s.  So I agree it''s less exciting than it was back then and the media are favouring those top teams.  But attendances and viewing figures are holding up, and as long as that continues, nothing will change.

 

Actually this year the top end of the Prem is more open than ever, in that it''s genuinely hard to forecast the top 2 at the end of the season now - can''t remember last time that happened.  But I agree with you that it''s only that elite handful of clubs who are realistic title contenders, and for many years, only a couple of them.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s sad that we will get relegated at some point but I agree it''s inevitable. And it''s that fear that stops investment on the stadium. We laugh at Wolves but it''s frightening. Their board built the stand. I expect they still have their parachute payments but they''ve got to get two promotions to return. The league income drops from 70m to 5m after the payments run out. Bowkett always comments how difficult it is to run a business with those parameters. So I''m like mystified how people can come on here and accuse the board of having their heads in the sand. They have to run that business and know what''s at stake. But I''m waffling as usual...

 

Bottom line is it is boring. We knew it would be. There''s no fun. It''s big business caught up in a soap opera created by Sky TV. And the best place to watch a soap opera is on TV. You get all the angles, the gossip, the analysts, the interviews etc. The worst place to watch it is in the stadiums. And there''s no fun in them. Of course it''s not just Norwich either. We''ve seen some crap games home and away. Games where both sides are abysmal. But we collected enough points from those games to stay up so we''re in the money. Well, the footballers are in the money. We''re not because we''re paying season tickets and sky sports subscriptions. I still love going to Carrow Road and the occasional away game. But more and more it''s the bonds and social interaction with other supporters that motivate me. Not the football anymore. If we were relegated it would be a blow for the following summer. But once the season starts we''d be just as happy in the lower league. We always are. But the brand would suffer enormously...

 

 

 

 

[/quote]
Only just caught your post Nutty.  
Great post, and comparing it all to a Soap is a pretty good summary.

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The top 5 will be Arsenal, Man C, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool. There will be excitement amongst those teams as the season progresses but we will be as much a part of that excitement as we were in league one.

 

 

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Sorry, ICF, I was getting mixed up between Div One and League One ! Why do they have to keep changing the bl**dy names of these divisions ? I only recently noticed that they''ve done so in Scotland, and Scots Div one is now the Scottish Championship.!

But, no you are right, it''s difficult to see anyone other than the two Manc clubs, the two Merseyside Clubs, the two N London clubs and Chelski making up the top 7 . But, it is improved slightly as up till very recently the top 3 were nailed on Arsenal, MU and Chelsea for season after season..

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I think they will shake it up in the near future, we just have to make sure we''re still in the league until then.

We are a small fish in a massive pond, but there are about 10 other small fish in there with us at least.

I think the problem now is the style of football, we''d all quite like to see one of our players in the top scorers list like Holt was a couple of years ago and we''d also quite like some of the exciting players at next years world cup to have played for us. That would make me a proud canary.

However my conversations with the plastics (we can tell the leeds fans to bugger off and have their own little conversation :P) we don''t seem to be as interesting any more.

The whole 2 promotions and Lamberts attacking football was like a successful Blackpoolesque fairy tale but now Southampton and Swansea provide them roles.

We are now the new Wigan or Bolton, accompanying Stoke in wasting a premier league spot for a few years before our ineviteble decline (their opinion not mine).

In summer, everyone loved our signings, Olsson was back in the premiership, possibly the most energetic player in the league, Leroy Fer was being dubbed bargain of the century, Redmond the next big thing and excitement surrounded RVW who Man U had courted the summer before we got him, it was like we had no right to sign a player like him.

Everyone was expecting more signings, a centre back and a number 10 but when it didn''t happen, we looked disjointed and incomplete. This has lead us back into our shell where we are so worried about survival, we have to play the boring way and nick as many points as we can.

Somehow, we need to get to a stage where we are not worried about relegation and we''ll ease off and do what we were supposed to this season, join the likes of Swansea and Southampton and play exciting football and worry the big boys in matches versus them where they genuinely feel we could nick points off them.

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Of course we could finish above Southampton again this year. Or above Stoke. If Bowkett is right you can bet at least one of them will be below us.

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Your final 3 paragraphs are the most apposite, Jimmy. It reminds me of this;

As the butler in the Ritz said , when he went into the penthouse suite and found George Best in bed , sipping champagne with Miss World......."George...where did it all go wrong...?"

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