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Juggy

It's just our away form really isn't it....

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But it is a long running problem and not unique to this season. If we could show more bottle away from home we''d probably be in with a shot of that top half finish.

Without sorting out our away form we are resigned to a scrap at the bottom.

I said before the Cardiff game that I expected 6 points minimum from our three home games against Cardiff, West Ham and Palace.

Ironically our best performance from the three games came against Cardiff. After the Cardiff game I was calling for his head, convinced that we wouldn''t take those 6 points.

We have 7 points from our last 3 home games, crucial points all against relegation rivals. We have conceded 1 goal in our last three home games.

But our away form remains atrocious, we were rubbish against Newcastle.

We entered our last three home games and considered them all "must win", we take 7 points from them - job done.

But now we have to turn our attentions to our next five away games, just look at the fixtures:

Liverpool

West Brom

Sunderland

Crystal Palace

Everton

Cardiff

We''ve got three games against relegation rivals in that six. We MUST find our away form.

If we do, and we don''t let ourselves down at home (we can revenge Hull and Newcastle at home in the near future, and play Fulham soon) then we may well end up seeing 10th place as a possibility again.

Away form remains the most pressing issue though, 3 points out of a possible 18 so far this season away from home.

11 points from 21 at home is starting to look a little more respectable, with Swansea coming up who we seem to do well against and Fulham looking so terrible at the minute.

Hughton looks to be turning this around but there is a long way to go, and we have serious issues away from home.

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Its not just our away form at all.

I''m happy we got the win today, but if anything i''m now more sure that I would be quite happy with Hughton going.

Our performances have regressed. We haven''t improved anything for weeks. We get going after a lucky penalty and fantastic FK from Snoddy against West Ham, then revert to one dimensional slow football against Newcastle. And then let Palace walk all over us second half today. After doing the same in first half against West Ham.

I don''t expect us to play brilliant football all game every game, but I do expect us to play to our strengths. Which according to how Hughton sets up the team, is letting the opposition do whatever they want.

We weren''t lucky today in many respects, Palace were never really in the game. They had that one chance that hit the bar, like ours. And very little else in our half. But still, we just let them play in the second half. Like we did with a 1-0 lead away at Stoke, it made sense then. Sit back and counter. But today? No. We just completely dropped back and looked like a very poor team second half.

Thats why people want Hughton gone. I''ve never been a Hughton outer, but its very hard now for me to find a reason for him too stay. The last straw for me was him brining on Becchio. To me that was him pretty much admitting he doesn''t know what he''s doing. How can he finally bring Becchio on just days after his outburst in the press, its just weak.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]Its not just our away form at all.

I''m happy we got the win today, but if anything i''m now more sure that I would be quite happy with Hughton going.

Our performances have regressed. We haven''t improved anything for weeks. We get going after a lucky penalty and fantastic FK from Snoddy against West Ham, then revert to one dimensional slow football against Newcastle. And then let Palace walk all over us second half today. After doing the same in first half against West Ham.

I don''t expect us to play brilliant football all game every game, but I do expect us to play to our strengths. Which according to how Hughton sets up the team, is letting the opposition do whatever they want.

We weren''t lucky today in many respects, Palace were never really in the game. They had that one chance that hit the bar, like ours. And very little else in our half. But still, we just let them play in the second half. Like we did with a 1-0 lead away at Stoke, it made sense then. Sit back and counter. But today? No. We just completely dropped back and looked like a very poor team second half.

Thats why people want Hughton gone. I''ve never been a Hughton outer, but its very hard now for me to find a reason for him too stay. The last straw for me was him brining on Becchio. To me that was him pretty much admitting he doesn''t know what he''s doing. How can he finally bring Becchio on just days after his outburst in the press, its just weak.[/quote]So a 1-0 win and 3 points... is the reason you want Hughton out.Seems logical that

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]Yes, just ignore the rest of the post...

Seems logical that.[/quote]Just find it weird that it would be after a winning result that you would want a manager outSurely a win, no matter how it occurred, is a good thing.

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We got 13 points away from home last season. Better than the bottom two but the same as Newcastle and one less than Stoke. Villa with 21 points had far and away the best away form.We already have 3 points so 10 more to equal last year with 13 games left. Thats just over three quarters of a point a game so 5 or more points from the next 6 games would be an acceptable return.

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Yes i''m delighted we won. I''m not one of those strange people who want us to lose to get rid of Hughton. I don''t care if we had the worst manager ever, still wouldn''t want us too lose just to get him sacked.

But as much as i''m delighted we won. It stops there. Basically that second half was very poor. Like the first half against West Ham (and Newcastle). Like us failing to score against Cardiff (and Hull) Like our complete non-show against Man.C (And Man.U in cup).

This season its just been one step forward, two steps back. I''ll never stop supporting the team, even if we win every game 1-0 and have a terrible half every game. But that doesn''t mean i''m not going to be disappointed in the way we played. Just getting fed up of players being limited, we saw only one proper Howson burst today. Why? We stopped playing quick passing in second half almost completely. Redmond only put in one cross second half that I remember, rather than the 4/5 or so in first half. We still barely had a decent shot other than the goal and one that hit the bar. It just same old, and i''m certain we have the right players to be doing better because there have been (scarce) examples of that (fantastic counter attacking football once 2-1 up against West Ham, few movements in first half today).

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It is obviously the away form which has kept us from creeping into the top 10, but not only that.

It is something with the way the points has been amassed. Under Hughton, I don''t recall many convincing wins, apart from the 4-0 vs WBA, who were already on the beach.

It is always a scrap for the points, always relying on someone else messing up, rarely ourselves playing well to get the points.

It is just something with Hughton which does not inspire me, probably not the players either. He seems disillusioned sometimes, almost, well, clueless.

His actions during games also points to this conclusion. Late subs, poor subs, sometimes completely non-understandable subs.

Chasing the game at Newcastle, he makes two subs at the loth minute, when we had been crying for changes for the last 20 mins.

Looking back at Hughton´s Norwich tenure, there are plenty of such mockups. I believe this has a backside, other than us punters making fun of his incapabilities, and it is the belief his players have in him as a coach/manager.

If the players never see him producing the goods, like we so often saw with Lambert, Hughton is never going to "own" the dressing room.

He is often doing the safe thing, never tries to do something to change a game when needed, never seems inspirational.

In fact, the guy is dull as hell.

And with regards to recruiting new personnel, do you think Fer and Wolf would recommend other Dutch talent to come to Norwich in the next transfer windows, when Hughton so evidently plays the dullest football they could imagine?

Keeping Hughton at the helm could have many negative implications for us as a club, not only the lack of points on the board, and financially, but wider implications.

Likely our reputation is at stake. People´s perception of Norwich as a club, who used to play attacking, good football, is at stake.

Get rid

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"We already have 3 points so 10 more to equal last year with 13 games left. Thats just over three quarters of a point a game so 5 or more points from the next 6 games would be an acceptable return"

In other words our away form last season was atrocious and it hasn''t improved this season.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]The last straw for me was him brining on Becchio. To me that was him pretty much admitting he doesn''t know what he''s doing. How can he finally bring Becchio on just days after his outburst in the press, its just weak.[/quote]

Bring him on and it shows weakness.Don''t bring him on he''s not giving the guy a chance.

Who''d be a football manager, you''re wrong even when you''re right.I get a strong feeling that a lot of people are unhappy with the win and would rather have lost just to heap more pressure on the manager.Takes all sorts I suppose.

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If Hughton thinks Becchio isn''t good enough Ricardo, then thats good enough for me. Strange he even bothered signing him. And if he wasn''t telling him why he wasn''t playing then thats wrong, but Becchio should have been able to work it out. If a player isn''t good enough, he doesn''t play. Simple as that. We''ve seen nothing to suggest he is good enough, or that he isn''t. But I think Hughton brining him on this week, rather than any other (RVW has been injured for weeks, and Hooper before him, Becchio didn''t even get any time against Watford...) is Hughton showing weakness after Becchio''s outburst. Becchio shouldn''t be rewarded for causing public disruption.

I don''t think any proper supporter of a football club wants there team to lose in any circumstances. I actually don''t see how today has helped Hughton at all. If we as a football club planned on staying in the PL, Palace at home is a game you should win. If you don''t, you have to find 3 points elsewhere. Like we have done against Arsenal, Spurs, Man.C & Man.U in previous seasons, but we''ve already failed against those teams once this season. I''m delighted with the win as I said. But its a win I expected even with a below par performance. But the problem is, today wasn''t really a below par performance. Its just our regular level this year. Which is quite sad really.

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[quote user="Le Juge"]"We already have 3 points so 10 more to equal last year with 13 games left. Thats just over three quarters of a point a game so 5 or more points from the next 6 games would be an acceptable return"

In other words our away form last season was atrocious and it hasn''t improved this season.[/quote]On the basis of the return from the six games so far played you are exactly right.However 13 points from 19 games was .68 pts per game. A point per game from the next 6 would be an improvement.At this stage I would be more than happy with 6 points from the next 6 away games. Any more than that and I would be ecstatic.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]If Hughton thinks Becchio isn''t good enough Ricardo, then thats good enough for me. Strange he even bothered signing him. And if he wasn''t telling him why he wasn''t playing then thats wrong, but Becchio should have been able to work it out. If a player isn''t good enough, he doesn''t play. Simple as that. We''ve seen nothing to suggest he is good enough, or that he isn''t. But I think Hughton brining him on this week, rather than any other (RVW has been injured for weeks, and Hooper before him, Becchio didn''t even get any time against Watford...) is Hughton showing weakness after Becchio''s outburst. Becchio shouldn''t be rewarded for causing public disruption.

I don''t think any proper supporter of a football club wants there team to lose in any circumstances. I actually don''t see how today has helped Hughton at all. If we as a football club planned on staying in the PL, Palace at home is a game you should win. If you don''t, you have to find 3 points elsewhere. Like we have done against Arsenal, Spurs, Man.C & Man.U in previous seasons, but we''ve already failed against those teams once this season. I''m delighted with the win as I said. But its a win I expected even with a below par performance. But the problem is, today wasn''t really a below par performance. Its just our regular level this year. Which is quite sad really.[/quote]He no doubt thought he was an improvement on Morison but on the evidence so far, not much. He was a stop gap signing at the end of the window when we didn''t get our main man. Better than nothing I suppose.I would argue about today not being a below par performance because it certainly was by quite a margin and in my judgement nowhere near our regular level this year. Perhaps you prefer the Chelsea game where we played very well and got nothing? Personally, I would take the points above the performance every time, but that''s just my opinion.

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Ricardo i''d take points over performance every time. And i''ll say it again incase you didn''t notice, i''m delighted we won. I really am. Had my graduation this week, and was feeling very down after returning home and a Norwich win is just what I needed. I didn''t prefer the Chelsea game, what i''d like us to do is play like we did against Chelsea, against the likes of Palace, Cardfif, Newcastle. Not just Chelsea. I can accept a Man.C stuffing if its followed up by a passionate performance and positive result. Its difficult of course, but we don''t seem to be able to follow up good performances either. Complete lack of consistency in any form.

I don''t see how you can think Palace performance was below par by quite a margin. We played like that against West Ham for 55 mins. And against Newcastle (not quite as poorly maybe). Against Hull, Spurs, Man.C, Man.U. To some extent Cardiff, Stoke second half, Villa first half. The kind of football we got in the second half today was nothing new. If anything, the lack of consistency I just mentioned is wrong, because we''ve been quite consistent in providing a complete lack of half decent football. Its fine when we get results, and great we''ve won two at home. But play like this every home game, we won''t keep winning...

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Away form is poor but an  improvement would see us as real top half contenders. Those who think our away form is abysmal probably don''t take into account the league we are playing in. Last season we won 13 points away from home which is the same as West Ham and Newcastle, 1 point less than Stoke and 2 points less than Sunderland and Southampton. If we could just pick up a couple of extra away wins without our home form dipping Bowkett''s top half could become a reality.

 

 

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Last season in the ''away form'' league table we finished 18th on goal difference (the relegation zone).

This season so far we are 19th in the away form league table.

I don''t know what else there is to say which can better illustrate how terrible our away form is, or how to explain how big an issue it has been throughout Hughton''s tenure.

It is about time he completely reassesses the way that we approach those games.

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Our away form last season was exactly what I said it was. If we can improve it with 2 more wins it would be that of a top half team.

 

 

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We only won 2 away games all last season, so that is twice the number of away victories. Presumably you mean 6 more points so we would also need to retain the 7 away draws.

So if we need to be aiming for: 4 (w), 7 (d), 8 (l)

With our record so far being:

1 (w), 0 (d), 5 (l)

Then in order to achieve what you say we need to achieve to be a top half team then we need 3 wins and 7 draws from our next 13 away games.

Sorry, never going to happen. Which is why I stick by original post, which is that away form is our real problem. Presumably if we finished 11th last season and are currently sitting at 14th, despite our terrible away record, we must actually have excellent home form under Hughton.

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No. What I said was that our poor away form wasn''t abysmal compared to the teams around us. I said you have to take into account the league we are in. I said [8-|] : -

 

Last season we won 13 points away from home which is the same as West Ham and Newcastle, 1 point less than Stoke and 2 points less than Sunderland and Southampton. If we could just pick up a couple of extra away wins without our home form dipping Bowkett''s top half could become a reality.

 

Now even if we turned two draws into wins it wouldn''t have been abysmal compared to the sides around us. Would it?

 

 

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No. What I said was that our poor away form wasn''t abysmal compared to the teams around us. I said you have to take into account the league we are in. I said [8-|] : -

 

Last season we won 13 points away from home which is the same as West Ham and Newcastle, 1 point less than Stoke and 2 points less than Sunderland and Southampton. If we could just pick up a couple of extra away wins without our home form dipping Bowkett''s top half could become a reality.

 

Now even if we turned two draws into wins it wouldn''t have been abysmal compared to the sides around us. Would it?

 

 

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It is not our away form. We are not that bad away that most of people make us. Yes we could definently do better and we should try to play with our own strenghts away or home, but teams like Man City struggle away too.

For me it is that we dont have that playmaker I have cried for. Hoolahan made us look so much better even playing half of the time at the wing until his engine was out of fuel.

And at the end he isnt one of those players you would call gamechanger by his talent.

Also what comes to changing Becchio it was quite good change as we were playing mostly long balls and Elmander was running out of gas, but Hooped had some legs left to play front of midfield.

Still I didnt agree everything Hughton did in that game. I would have changed midfielder on for the place of Elmander near 60 minutes as it was clear Palace was getting more chances and we were outnumbered there and it would have freed Hoolahan to play a bit more front to be more efficient.

In my opinion Hughton is a bit too obsessed at the moment to get that 4-4-1-1 work with big man behind the striker and only option for it seems to be 3 men midfield without playmaker. Well latter works fine if Tettey and Snoddy are fit as Howson and Fer can go a bit more forward then. With Redmond/Pilkington and Johnson covering we are too open and no one makes the plays without Snoddy.

Both of them have somewhat failed us so I would like to see us going back to that 4-2-3-1. It seems the problem is that he doesnt trust Howson and Fer to protect our back four enough alone and doesnt want to drop Howson because of his good goal ratio and better all around game compared to Hoolahan.

Still at the end of the day I wouldnt change Hughton, but if board is even concedering doing it it should be done now.

Who ever is in charge at january hopefuly he brings creative passing midfielder in. Doesnt matter if he is deep lying and we let Howson or Elmader play front of deep duo or attackmindend and he plays behind the striker, but our current options (Elmander,Howson and untrusted Hoolahan) are not enough if we want to create more chances.

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And specially chances in away games as good pass behind the opponents defense in counter attacks is something we almost totally lack from central positions.

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Well however many we need..... we both agree that our away results need to improve significantly if we are to push on up the table.

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"We are not that bad away that most of people make us"

Sorry but I just disagree completely, we are terrible away from home and that''s why we were 18th in the away league table last season and are currently 19th in the away league table this season.

How much worse can it be? We are a top half team at home and a relegated team away from home. It is a huge problem.

Palace have a weak team but they had more of a go at Carrow Road then we did at Newcastle.

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I mean game wise not point wise. At the end point wise it is only few goal difference to be top half team in away form too.

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Well its alright saying "only few goal difference" but when you have only scored 3 goals in 6 away games..... a few goals is a quite a lot!

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You do need to bear in mind just who we''ve played away: our 6 games so far have included Man C, Arsenal , Spuds and an in-form Newcastle, along with Stoke and Hull - imo we are only 1-2pts from a reasonable return from that lot.

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There''s a reason we are awful away from home. We have a manger who constantly bangs on about how it''s virtually impossible for clubs such as ours to pick up points away from home. He has come out and as good as written off our chances of getting a result away from carrow road with his negative words and approach to these games. It''s depressing knowing the next two games are a total write off. I can''t see us getting more than 6 points away from home between now and the end of the season. Putting huge pressure on our home form. Question is, how many more lucky, scrappy, home victories over poor prem teams can we manage. . .

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