Lambert had taken the club as far as he could

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

I know he''s gone and we should all get over it, yada yada yada, but I was interested in discussing this particular perception of why Lambert left. Not the whole moving to a bigger club thing, but the pervading idea that Lambert would have failed here in season 2 of the Premier League. Now I know Lambert is not exactly setting the world alight at Villa, but he has walked into a new club, with new players, new egos, new expectations, and a fanbase that did not worship him the way we did. It has been a common statement from many fans that Lambert ''knew he would fail here in the second season'' and that we would have been relegated, so left as he had ''taken the club as far as he could''.

Im interested to know how strong a belief that is among Norwich fans, because i for one think thats far from a foregone conclusion. I think Lambert left simply out of ambition. Villa are a bigger club than Norwich, he wanted a bigger job. Im not convinced he doubted his ability to succeed with us, and Im not convinced of the whole second season thing.

Lambert had a fanbase who would accept anything from him. Players who would run through walls for him. And an ample warchest for the following season. Whilst we may have had to change direction and approach. Im not sure the bubble owuld have burst and we would have plummeted into disaster. I dont think we''d be in a worse off position than current, but accept we may have struggled.

What do others think? Am I the only one who thinks Lambert wouldnt have been a nailed on failure here if he''d stayed?

[lake district canary 4,830]

Lambert is having the same problems at Villa as he would have had here.   The same problems Hughton is having and the same problems most lower table teams are having.   Consistency, the fact that any team can beat another on any given day and just the pressure to succeed.   If he had stayed here he would have struggled.     Not a failure, but not great success either. 

[Tetteys Jig 851]

Tricky one really, looking back at that squad from our first premiership season and where they are now, it''s a miracle we got 12th place and even more so that we got 10 goals out of Steve Morison!

Whether Lambert could have been trusted with the moneny or whether he''d have done a George Burley we will never know, but his spending at Villa has been fairly average, Benteke was a revalation admittedly, but some of his other buys looked questionable.

One point i''d make, do you reckon we''d have got Benteke if Lambert had stayed?

Hughton has come in and had a hard act to follow. Following ''the messiah'' with a squad that was massively overachieving and having to get the lads going again whilst investing our first proper money in years wisely.

To all intents and purposes, he''s done that and done it very well. The football has been dull sometimes but he didn''t really have a choice starting to build from the back. Imagine he''d have bought a £4m striker instead of Bassong, we''d have been easily relegated in my book.

This season has started slowly and whilst Hughton has made some glaring errors (the Hull game, not sorting RVW as penalty taker vs Villa, Newcastle lack of changes), the good is now starting to outweigh the bad. 1-0 home wins versus Crystal Palace should not be underestimated. Any 3 points you get at this level is a massive achievement.

Hopefully Hughton will learn along with the team and we''ll get a better team and manager for it who can take us to the next level.

Imagine we''d got Benteke to partner Holt last season but our centre back pairing was Barnett and Ward, would we have achieved higher than 11th or even stayed up? Who knows but I fear our poor defence would have cost us. Perhaps it may have been a blessing in disguise to lose Lambert but we''ll never know.

[Yelloow Since 72 56]

IMO, City would have probably struggled but survived under Lambert last season. Many people forget the dismal run of 2 wins, 2 draws and 8 losses at the end of that season until the meaningless games against Arsenal and Villa at the end. The shaky defence was exposed, the scoring dried up considerably and there was a lack of confidence overall. Lambert would have strengthened the squad, but IMO, not as much as CH did, particularly in the defence.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

Lambert is clearly a very ambitious man, nothing wrong with that.  Look at the way he left Colchester for us - making those "come and get me" comments after they thrashed us, so it was no surprise that a week later he was our manager.

 

I think this ambition drove his move to Villa in two ways.  He was concerned that he''d probably taken City as far as he felt he could and the second season in the Prem might not go as well as the first.  This is not saying he''d have been a failure if he''d stayed.  But from a ruthlessly ambitious perspective, I think he decided that staying at City wouldn''t further his career because he''d not improve on his reputation - another season in which he finished lower down the league wouldn''t add anything to the CV.

 

So he was obviously on the lookout for a move, and Villa were presumably the best club that came in for him.  Not much of a step up but a bigger wage/transfer budget and a much stronger squad than when he left us.  So another step up the ladder.  The challenge for him at Villa is to give them a similar improvement that he gave us, which IMO would be moving them up the league to the level of Everton, which should be a realistic, if ambitious, goal given their resources.  He''d then be looking to establish himself at that level, and I imagine he''d be hoping to follow the David Mayes path (and he''s not a patient man so he probably wouldn''t wait 10 years) and move to one of the top clubs.

 

Given the way he joined us, it was no surprise to me that he saw City as a stepping stone, I was just surprised he left for such a small step up as to Villa.  But I think the explanation is simply that he did feel he''d taken us as far as he could so wanted a quick move.  And I think the difficulties he''s had at Villa do make it clear he''d have struggled if he''d stayed with us.

 

As for the comments about the City fans accepting anything from Lambert etc, I think these are just naive.   Football fans have very short memories.  Just look at the way some people turned on Grant Holt last season.  If Lambert had stayed and we''d started to struggle, he''d very quickly have come under pressure.  And I''m sure he''s very aware of just how fickle football fans can be.

[Buh 0]

I love wha the guy did for us and will always be thankful but he jumped ship because he bottled it. He couldn''t deal with what would be in comparison to Villa a season of austerity and feels villa are a bigger club where he can achieve more.

It''s his choice, I think we would have struggled second season with him but none of it really matters now. Giving him too much attention plays into his hands. He wants to be the pantomime villain, the lack of respect he shows a club he took so far, especially on matchdays, is wron but it increases his stock with the new fans. Therein you find the answer, it is and always has been all about him and his stock.

What''s important is that the legacy he and his players delivered is built on and expanded, not squandered. Long term stability and success now has to be the aim.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Certainly in the aftermath there appeared to be indications that PL wasn''t happy with the amount of money that would be available if he stayed here and I think that had something to do with it. Overall I agree that he felt that Villa was a slight step up, and that he would have more money on wages and transfers available.

It was also a similar Club on its knees as when he took over at Carrow Road. Villa were about as bad as they could be under McLeish - it was a good time to take over as the only way was up.

As it has turned out, he hasn''t taken them as far ''up'' as he and their fans would have liked, but I would still suggest those are the main reasons why he left.

[Warren Hill 0]

It''s all about the risk.

 

Lambert was the most upwardly mobile maanger in the English game, having overseen back to back promotions and a solid first season consolidation in the Prem.

 

At that point his stock was higher than it had ever been, his choices were to jump ship then or risk another season with us, chancing that we''d punch above our weight in terms of available budget for another season. Looking at it objectively, we were by no means guaranteed to survive again and Lamberts worth would have been somewhat diminished by having a relegation on his CV.

 

For that reason, he was completely right to jump ship. His reputation may have been built with Norwich but he owed us nothing personally and it has become subsequently apparent that there were definite strains between the board and himself.

 

Sensible decision all round.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

 Following ''the messiah'' with a squad that was massively overachieving

 

 

"No one exceeds their potential - if he did it would mean we did not

accurately gauge his potential in the first place".

Director Josef    Gattaca

[Tetteys Jig 851]

Nice quote, and i understand, but perhaps we were running at 100% of our potential when the rest of the league averaged about 80% of theirs, hence as a net product, we were overachieving the standard set by that extra 20% (or 25% on top of the other teams levels).

He had a poor team on paper and got them all playing to their strengths and trying hard for him. There isn''t many teams who manage that consistently for a whole season.

Look at Fulham, you have the likes of Taraabt, Bent, Berbatov and Ruiz who on their day are champions league standard players, their weakness is their poor consistency. I''d rather have Lamberts Holt and his consistent 7 out of 10 performances than Taraabt and his 10 or of 10 one week followed by three 5 out of 10 performances.

Lambert whilst tactically a bit naive is one of the best motivators around.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

Case study 2, Greece in 2004 winning the Euros, yes, they obviously could play that well, but you would argue that while they produced it, Portugal and others should have been better and able to beat Greece.

I suppose the phrase ''greater than the sum of it''s parts'' should be ''equal to the sum of it''s parts'' where actually most teams are ''less than the sum of it''s parts''

[Sussexyellow 55]

It''s Character Forming wrote the following post at 03/12/2013 11:02 AM:

......another season in which he finished lower down the league wouldn''t add anything to the CV.

Exactly. We look at things selfishly - PL has his own career to look after.

Staying longer with us would have been very unlikely to improve his CV but ran the risk of damaging it. By going he cemented his time at Norwich as a permanent positive on his CV, irrespective of how he did at his new club.

So from a career perspective I can understand his decision. 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

Ah yes, but to look at it from another perspective, take Henrick Larsson. For years performing wonders at Celtic as a massive fish in a very small pond. Every year, everyone talking about him and what a great player he is and how he should move to a club with a more competitive league. he was smart, and stayed, knowing that if he simply became an average player in a different league, people would stop talking about him (I know he moved in the end but for years he resisted). If Lambert fails at Villa, he might end up like other managers who have runs in the top flight and then end up back in the lower divisions. If he felt he could keep Norwich up every year as a bare minimum, he may well have had a job for life. I know fans are fickle, as had been pointed out. But we LOVED this guy. I doubt Villa fans will ever love him like that. Moving to Villa, whilst seemingly a good decision for his career, was not a move without risk

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

Some managers have an ability to get the most out of players - take Brian Clough/Peter Taylor, they''d look for misfits who weren''t performing to their full potential elsewhere.  Also it''s a team game and QPR are the perfect example of how individuals can fail to gel and lost to a team made up of players who are less talented.

 

Lambert certainly has this ability although he''s obviously struggled this season with established/experienced pro''s at Villa like Bent.  I think Lambert likes to be top dog and bringing in young/hungry players allows that.

[Sussexyellow 55]

But its not about what the fans think of him, its about how he sees his career. 

How to develop his career was not without risk, but he managed that risk by going. It was less of a risk to go. He could fail at Villa but still have the Norwich years as huge positive that would still make him a sought after manager. He left the question of whether he could have taken Norwich further in the air as a never to be answered question. Smart!

Yes we loved him.  I am sure we are all extremely grateful for what he did for Norwich. But he made his decision to go, and I for one wish him well. 

[YellowNets1901 0]

I''ll always feel Lambert should have given us another season. In all honesty, Villa are a bigger club than us, but had he achieved say a top half finish for us last season, it would''ve gotten him a better job than the Villa one. That''s for sure. He could''ve gone to an Everton type club, who in my opinion are miles ahead of Villa in many ways.

He was too quick to leave. I think he''s a wonderful manager, really top class, but as a man - didn''t like the way he left the club and I hope it all comes out one day. Let''s not forget, this club was good for him too and he pretty much took that and threw it back at us the day he left for Villa.

I still remember the day he left us being one of my darkest as a Norwich fan. Awful. Every song on the radio reminded me of him :-) Seriously though, I just wish, after a win, Hughton would walk down to the Barclay and pump his fist like Lambert sometimes used to. I really believe things like that would get the crowd behind him and breed more positivity.

[CambridgeCanary 0]

I agree with much that is said. Lambert had nothing to gain and everything to lose by staying. He was never going to improve on his performance so his career needed a move upwards.

I''ve always felt that the ill feeling results from mismanagement by lambert and presumably his advisors. He is not a gracious man but he could have made his parting a consensual event.

All he needed to do was sit down with Lakey or Waghorn or even Dennis and say that he loved his time at Norwich, would always value his relationship with the fans but now he had a chance to further his career and move on. He would hope to enjoy coming back and to wish us well.

We would have had a collective "ok. Fair enough. Thanks and good luck" moment.

All the bile would have gone. I don''t blame Lambert for going. We always knew it would happen. I do blame him for the manner of his going and the avoidable way he left so much hostility behind him.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

Agreed. We all expected him to move on to bigger and greater things, we would have accepted this if things had been done a little differently. I think we perhaps didnt expect it so soon, and perhaps felt insulted he was going to a club that finished below us. No doubt Villa are a bigger club, but perhaps we thought he could do better...