No points for a draw

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Which 4 or 5 Juggy?

 

 

[The gut 0]

On the face of it I quite fancy a take on Old Shucks suggestion.

Defeat = 0 points

Draw = 1 point

Home win = 3 points

Away win = 4 points

I personally think this thread is a welcome relief to just chat about someones ideas.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,424]

[quote user="Le Juge"]"As for boxing and no draws, isn''t that a fight as in there has to be a winner?" Oh dear, you don''t know anything about boxing do you? There are draws in boxing, and there does not have to be a winner.[/quote]

 

If you hold the belt, and the fight is a draw, you get to keep the belt. So you could play for a draw in boxing, and remain World Champ. Draws can be good news.

 

I''d take a draw in Australia right now, and keep the Ashes.

 

Just saying.

[Juggy 0]

"Which 4 or 5 Juggy?"

What? I said we had the 4th worst goal difference in the league, what are you asking exactly?

[The gut 0]

Oh please don''t bring cricket into this. I thought the winners were the ones who laid on the best buffet

[Juggy 0]

The gut,

could even do:

Defeat = 0 points

Home Draw = 1 points

Away Draw = 2 points

Home win = 3 points

Away win = 4 points

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Le Juge"]"quite clearly insinuates you think its a negative formation. Otherwise why on earth would you say that?"

The number of draws in the Premier League has significantly increased over the past five or six years, hugely increased actually. The move away from two strikers to one striker seems to correlate with that.

I never said that it was a negative tactic, but it is a tactic which results in more draws. If you got no points for a draw then I''m sure people who work in the football industry would study that fact and work out that 4-5-1 results in more draws (the figures are already out there).

The EPL gets more draws than any of the other four or five top European leagues by the way, many more - 50% more than La Liga and Bundesliga. Even more than Serie A.

There is your answer.[/quote]

Which four or five top european leagues?

 

 

[The gut 0]

LJ - I think that was shucks suggestion. I just didn''t like anyone getting 2 points for a draw, especially as the away teams often seem more than happy to go for draws when only one point is on offer. I like four for away win to really give teams a reward for going for it away.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,424]

[quote user="The gut"]Oh please don''t bring cricket into this. I thought the winners were the ones who laid on the best buffet[/quote]

 

No that''s croquet Gut. Cricketers have lunch, tea, drinks and elevenses. In fact I''ve played in Cricket matches were no one actually played any cricket at all.

 

 

[Juggy 0]

Why do you need to know? Are you going to fact check? Well make sure you calculate over the last five or six period rather than being very selective with your sample size like many seem to do on the Pink''Un.

Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga, Ligue 1, Portuguese Liga.

Go for it.

[Juggy 0]

*five or six years.

[The gut 0]

My mistake GPB.

I know when watching cos I''ve seen people move in croquet.

The only way I know if I''m at a funeral instead of cricket is cos of colour scheme.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="The gut"]On the face of it I quite fancy a take on Old Shucks suggestion.

Defeat = 0 points

Draw = 1 point

Home win = 3 points

Away win = 4 points

I personally think this thread is a welcome relief to just chat about someones ideas.[/quote]

 

Quick look at this and we''d still be 14th under these rules. Arsenal would be flying with their 5 away wins though!

 

 

[Davo 0]

[quote user="The Frisbee Hyena"]I''m pretty sure in every American team sport draws count for nothing. And there''s quite a lot of them.[/quote]

In the big four sports in the US there are no "Draws". All four sports play overtime (extra innings in the case of baseball)  if the scores are tied at the end of the match. Overtime is normally sudden death with the first scorer taking the win, except in baseball where it carries on forever and ever and ever until one team falls asleep and the other team has had more fat blokes run in a square after hitting a ball than the other team.

Even in the NHL when the game goes is drawn at the full time they get a point for a "draw" and the eventual winner gets 2. Funny that there seems to be a growing movement for a scoring system much like we have in football.

Davo

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Why do you need to know? Are you going to fact check? Well make sure you calculate over the last five or six period rather than being very selective with your sample size like many seem to do on the Pink''Un.

Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga, Ligue 1, Portuguese Liga.

Go for it.[/quote]

 

You are an angry person Juggy. I was just interested which ones. I''m also interested, because I don''t remember or maybe I never knew, whether all the leagues changed to 3 points for a win when we did.

 

 

[The gut 0]

Would we have seen more exciting footy tho nutty?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Doubt it. West Ham would have parked 6 busses to hold their lead at CR.

 

 

[The gut 0]

And maybe LJ wouldn''t be so angry nuts if he''d seen more exciting footy. Maybe it would reduce all football related anger cos we were all watching end to end football and could all be good sportsmen even after defeat cos our team had gone for it.

[Juggy 0]

Here you go Nigel...

2012/2013

EPL: 380 games (124 draws)

La Liga: 380 games (85 draws)

Seria A: 380 games (96 draws)

Can''t be bothered to do the two leagues with less than 20 teams because then I have to work out percentages but at a glance much the same appears to apply.

Like I said, we draw far more games than other top leagues in Europe. Even the French league has less (380 - 108).

[The gut 0]

I thought west ham had used all their buses.

[Juggy 0]

Nigel, we were the first to change in 1981.... most other European Leagues adopted it in 1994 or 1995 after the World Cup USA.

Amazing how late that was, less than twenty years ago for most other major leagues.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Here you go Nigel...

2012/2013

EPL: 380 games (124 draws)

La Liga: 380 games (85 draws)

Seria A: 380 games (96 draws)

Can''t be bothered to do the two leagues with less than 20 teams because then I have to work out percentages but at a glance much the same appears to apply.

Like I said, we draw far more games than other top leagues in Europe. Even the French league has less (380 - 108).[/quote]

 

If you go to Statto the percentages are already worked out.

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Nigel, we were the first to change in 1981.... most other European Leagues adopted it in 1994 or 1995 after the World Cup USA.

Amazing how late that was, less than twenty years ago for most other major leagues.[/quote]

 

I doubt we could change in those circumstances again. The game is so global now. We must have gone back to 2 points for a win in the WC and ENC. You won''t get a change unless FIFA agree so it''s no good us suggesting it...

 

 

[Fleckys Flip-Flop 0]

The Rugby Union bonus point system would be a great introduction. 4 points for a win and 2 for a.draw. You also get a point for losing by less than a converted try or scoring 4 or more trys. A bonus point for losing by just one goal would encourage teams to push for the win when drawing and the 4 goal bonus point would encourage teams to keep pushing when 2 up at half time. Would only encourage further attacking football.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="The gut"]And maybe LJ wouldn''t be so angry nuts if he''d seen more exciting footy. Maybe it would reduce all football related anger cos we were all watching end to end football and could all be good sportsmen even after defeat cos our team had gone for it.[/quote]

 

I''ve come to the conclusion that I don''t know what exciting football is anymore. Most teams now play to keep posession for long periods trying to create openings. I know the supporters near me don''t like that. If I had a quid for every "lump it forward" wail I''d get enough for next season''s ST. Of course we''re nowhere near their class but I''m pretty sure many of these people would be bored by Barca. I think a fair percentage of our fans like direct football. Maube not route one but perhaps route one and a half. You won''t get the PL playing that way anymore because the top foreign players won''t stand for it.

 

 

[Warren Hill 0]

This draw thing is a bit misleading. In the Prem:

12/13 108

11/12 93

10/11 111

09/10 96

08/09 97

07/08 100

06/07 98

05/06 77

04/05 110

03/04 108

02/03 90

01/02 101

00/01 101

Average from 00/01-04/05 is 102 draws

Average from 08/09-12/13 is 101 draws

Average from 00-13 is 99.2 draws

A concession is that if you only look at the last 3 complete seasons, the average is up at 104 but even that doesn''t look particularly significant.

Only looking at 2011/12 serie A matched the EPL high figure of the sample I looked at of 111 draws and La Liga had 94 to the EPLs 93.

My conclusion is that nothing much seems to have changed. In fairness, I''m terrible at Maths so I prepare to be shot down.

[splutcho 173]

Why does it matter if we have more draws? More draws = more closely fought games = entertainment.

[Juggy 0]

It doesn''t necessarily, and I never said it did. Gingerpele wanted to know the relevance of my 4-5-1 mention and I said that formations would probably change if people got no points for a draw.

I have nothing against the current system, it was just an interesting concept or hypothetical discussion which some have taken in the manner it was intended and some (like you) have got all emotional and personal about.

If anything the discussion focuses around our role in 1981 of revolutionizing football and wondering whether we could do it again - Nutty Nigel points out quite correctly that FIFA have too much power and influence now and such a change would have to come from Blatter rather than a suggestion from a former England player with an exceedingly large chin.

The initial change to three points was made to encourage more attacking football, but didn''t really succeed and was possibly counter productive in the long term. So I was interested in the concept of further increasing the number of points for a win (would probably have no effect either) or offering zero points for a draw.

My own conclusion in this thread is that the initial system of 2 points + 1 point is the most logical. Your conclusion is that I am trying to sell something to somebody and have a hatred of draws and defenders, which is one that you imagined in your own head to use as an excuse to call me a moron or dim. But those who are dim are the people who can''t see that this is just the conceptual discussion or critique, just like the one which was had before 1981 by various people in football.

I have nothing against the current system at all, I was merely pointing out that it doesn''t really matter whether you go 3-1-0, 2-1-0, or 4-1-0, but wondered what the pitfalls and benefits of going 3-0-0 would be. Others suggested alternatives like 4-3-1-0 or 4-3-2-10. If your brain cannot engage in simple mathematical concepts or indulge in a little imagination then that isn''t my problem but yours.

More attacking football = entertainment actually, and that was the reasoning behind Jimmy Hill''s three point theory. It didn''t change much.

[ricardo 7,345]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Here you go Nigel...

2012/2013

EPL: 380 games (124 draws)

La Liga: 380 games (85 draws)

Seria A: 380 games (96 draws)

Can''t be bothered to do the two leagues with less than 20 teams because then I have to work out percentages but at a glance much the same appears to apply.

Like I said, we draw far more games than other top leagues in Europe. Even the French league has less (380 - 108).[/quote]

All it shows is that the EPL has a larger number of evenly matched teams.

[Warren Hill 0]

[quote user="Le Juge"]"quite clearly insinuates you think its a negative formation. Otherwise why on earth would you say that?"

The number of draws in the Premier League has significantly increased over the past five or six years, hugely increased actually. The move away from two strikers to one striker seems to correlate with that.

I never said that it was a negative tactic, but it is a tactic which results in more draws. If you got no points for a draw then I''m sure people who work in the football industry would study that fact and work out that 4-5-1 results in more draws (the figures are already out there).

The EPL gets more draws than any of the other four or five top European leagues by the way, many more - 50% more than La Liga and Bundesliga. Even more than Serie A.

There is your answer.[/quote]

So this post is in fact hogwash then?