Dean Coneys boots 1,382 Posted December 4, 2013 Really puzzled as to why Whittaker is on the bench. Martin gives 100% and is a great guy- no question- but for me he is championship standard and is often caught lacking. Whereas Whittaker is a cut above and we do better, I think, when he plays. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salopian 1 Posted December 4, 2013 I fear that Whittaker may be suffering from another case of Hughton "once you''ve decided, never change your mind" syndrome.I am not pushing for Whittaker, and I think that he has his own limitations, especially a lack of pace, but I do feel that unless Martin gets his act together and eliminates errors he really should have a rest. He has been a great servant, but RB is one area in the team where we have two players of roughly equal ability Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray 111 Posted December 4, 2013 Hi DCB,What follows may solve your puzzle and replicates what I wrote on another thread. These are the stats and ratings, etc from the Palace game SKY ratings gave him a 7 with the following words, "Broke down the right wing well to earn a number of corners for Norwich" The BBC match thread included the following; 36:17 Russell Martin (Norwich City) wins a free kick on the right wing. 75:40 Russell Martin (Norwich City) wins a free kick in the defensive half. 90:00 +1:19 Russell Martin (Norwich City) wins a free kick on the right wing. Whoscored.com a keeper of stats, rated him the second highest score behind Seb Bassong, he also had the highest % pass completion of the entire defence and midfield and he had more touches than any other player (see below) 87% Pass Accuracy 80% Aerials Won 87 Touches 7.6 Rating The number of clearances Saturday were as follows; Bassong 12 Bennett 8 Martin 6 Olsson 1 Johnson 2 Every other outfield player 1 or none. Also, the number of interceptions were; Martin 2 Bassong 0 Bennett 0 Olsson 0 Howson 1 Every other outfield player, none.Crosses; Redmond 18 Martin 4 Hoolahan 4 All others 1 or none Accurate long balls; Howson 6 Martin 5 Bassong 5 All others 4 or less.So let''s summarise, he obviously got forward a lot, as SKY and the BBC indicate in their reports, he won a numbers of corners, he won a number of free kicks, he made the original pass that set up the goal, he played his part in keeping a clean sheet, he had an 87% pass completion %, he made three times more clearances than any other outfield player other than the CBs, he made twice as many interceptions than the rest of the team put together, he made four times as many crosses than the rest of the team put together, excluding our wingers, and he was equal with one of them, and he was equal second on accurate long balls and only one behind Howson with 6.So IMO it is not what Whitts has to do, it’s what Martin does and given the stats above, which are replicated in most matches, I don’t really understand why you think his performance is lacking.I have said before and will probably say again (sorry about that) I think he is underrated by some of our fans because he goes about his job quietly yet efficiently and often goes under the radar. Obviously, our manager rates him, as does Gordon Strachan and the other managers who made enquiries last summer, all Prem League. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrs miggins 0 Posted December 4, 2013 wait for his turn? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted December 4, 2013 Whittaker got dropped off the back of a bad game at Spurs, didn''t he? Might have been a bit of a hasty, knee-jerk reaction from the manager when you consider that Martin has had several poor games since he''s been back in the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lake district canary 4,518 Posted December 4, 2013 Its a shame for Whittaker, but he''ll have to wait for his chance again. I like Whittaker in the team, but I also like Martin in there too. The stats for Martin are good, but the difference against Everton was Whittaker and no amount of stats to do with pass rate etc etc can alter the fact that he almost single handedly got us a draw that day. But I guess he''ll have to wait until injury or form drops off for Martin, then when he does play he''ll have to take his chance well to keep his place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray 111 Posted December 4, 2013 LDC,Agree and scoing goals is an obvious advantage, however a RB is primarily there to defend and link/overlap and deliver crosses. If my memory serves me right RM scored 3 last year (2 in one game Man City at home although we still lost) so yes full backs ocassionally save or win a game for us with their scoring ability, but we have strikers to do that. Would you keep a striker in a team because he made some good clearances whist defending corners yet had made no impact up front? I wouldn''t and it''s sort of the same thing. Isn''t it??As I said before, I think it''s not what Whitts has to do but more what RM does, if and when he doesn''t then Whitts will no doubt get his chance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted December 4, 2013 Based on overall ability, its Whittaker over Martin every time. Russ Martin has some great attributes, unfortunately most are only behavioural attributes such as leadership, loyalty and good work ethic. Martin has made it where he is today with hard work and desire rather than natural ability. Whittaker is a better player, however its important for team Morale that Martin is involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fleckys Flip-Flop 0 Posted December 4, 2013 For me, it''s all about consistency. Whittaker can be amazing, but all too often he is found lacking. Especially when up against someone with real pace. If we got Whittaker v Everton all the time then he would be a world beater. Sadly we dont. I really like them both, but Martin has to start in my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4th floor 4 Posted December 4, 2013 Russell Martin is fairly consistent and often does a competent job as reflected in some of the stats. But the stats don''t measure the number of times he''s been been easily beaten, caught out of position or put the team on the defensive through being overly hesitant or making a poor choice of pass. He''s not a particularly good tackler either.I think he probably has the advantage more through having match fitness and having held the position for so long. Hughton only seems to decide to change if there''s a prolonged run of poor form, so barring injury or suspension only continuation of his poor form will force a change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 0 Posted December 4, 2013 I really don''t get why people think it is such a clear chose to be made.From what I have seen of Whittaker he is a decent enough full back, better pushing forward than Martin.However, from what I have seen of him, positionally he is not as sound as Martin, despite popular clamour he is not faster than him either. Nor is he as strong.I think they are quite evenly balanced overall but as a defender I think Martin is better, from what I have seen of the two. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BarclayWazza 91 Posted December 4, 2013 I think this is one of the positions that will be focused on for replacements in January/summer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted December 4, 2013 Maybe he''ll get a go at the weekend seeing how easily Suarez beat Martin for a couple of the goals tonight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barclay_boy111 0 Posted December 4, 2013 I''d still put Martin in the centre replacing Bennet/Turner and Whitaker on the right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted December 4, 2013 Or just put Turner at CB next to Bassong because they are the best two central defenders at the club. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray 111 Posted December 5, 2013 GJP, which two are you refering to and if we are going to say Suarez was gifted his goals tonight then I give up.. He is a superb player and was on fire tonight, so let''s accept that he is paid big bucks to score goals because of his natural ability and mental approach to the game and he earned his corn tonight.If we are looking to point the finger then from what I saw there are others who were culpable, if not more culpable, than RM.SKY ratingsMartin 6Bennett 6Bassong 5Olsson 5Whittaker 5Suarez 10, yes 10Sums it all up really. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted December 5, 2013 Martin big time on the second goal. Also the last goal, Suarez got the ball in all too easily. Suarez is like any other good player...give them time and space, make it easy for them and they will punish you. We were very guilty of that. Martin was part of that (but not the only one). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray 111 Posted December 5, 2013 GJP, don''t agree but that''s what makes it interesting.He did what he''s paid to do and he''s probably paid four or five times more than our defenders, so you would expect him to beat to us ocassionally, just wish our attackers were as good at beating their defenders or we selected a team and formation that gave their defenders something to worry about and inhibit their ability to supply their flair players!Settling down to watch the Ashes for a while, so signing off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted December 5, 2013 [quote user="Ray"]GJP, don''t agree [/quote]You don''t agree with criticism of Russell Martin? I didn''t see that coming. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray 111 Posted December 5, 2013 GJPI don''t agree with criticism of anyone, especially when they are doing their best in a professional manner.Now if someone was deliberately or negligently underperforming or taking to the field with a poor attitude, well that may be a difrent story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dean Coneys boots 1,382 Posted December 5, 2013 Suarez is good. He looked good. But we helped him look that good. By being bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites