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LostTheFaith

Expectation and the silent majority

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Hello fellow supporters.

Before I start a little about me. 50 next year. Been watching Norwich since the 70''s when I stood on a box to see! Was at our European matches. Love my club and all it is.

So, my take on where we are. Exactly as expected.

We are a bottom 6 club with a bottom 6 budget and mainly championship players. Anything higher than that is a bonus.

When I say championship players I mean in comparison with the top 10 clubs, they are in a different league as highlighted by recent results. And the gap will get bigger me feels.

While our manager keeps us out of the drop zone he should stay. Saying that , he and every manager are no more than 6 games from the chop. I would put Hoots on 4 games from the sack. Lose the next 4, no matter how the team performs, it is time for him to go...... But that will not happen and I expect him to be here at the start of next season.

It''s is very easy to blame poor performances on the manager but our players must take a lot of the responsibility. They are not doing the simple things right and, some, are not playing for the shirt!

I read this forum most days. Only a minority post on here and most have minority views. Most sane and level headed fans are still sat on the fence regrading hoots, including me, but understand it takes time and a lot of money to compete with the top 10. We do to have the money but given the time who knows.

Keep the faith. Give it a couple of years and we could be a real mid table team but be under no illusions that now we are relation fodder no matter who is the manager!

OTBC

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Cue the abuse happy clapper!!!!

A sensible post and I agree with most of it. For what its worth my thoughts at the beginning of the season have been borne out. All those talking about top 10 and above (people were actually talking of Europe on here) were sadly delusional.

One thing that really got me though were those on here that said pre-season was meaningless!! Well I think that gave us some indication as to how the season was going to pan out and so far those feelings have been justified.

I''m still unsure whether relieving Mr Hughton would alleviate our troubles but maybe the gamble would be a positive move by the board! Having said that we have a run of fixtures coming up that we should garner a decent amount of points from.

I continue to keep the faith and one thing is for sure, I will continue to support our wonderful club!!!!!

OTBC

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Completely agree. It will take time to build up a squad of the necessary quality as we don''t have megabucks owners. Survival is the name of the game whilst this process continues. Hence why I''m not demanding CH''s head because we were trounced at Man City and Liverpool. We might be in the same league as them but we certainly cannot compete with them financially and this shows in the squads. It''s not about being happy clappers or pant wetters nor lil'' ole Naarwich attitudes. It''s about maintaining a sense of realism and perspective which so many on this board seem unable to do.

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Thing is after countless debates with many people with many views not one can give me one good reason why we should be in tenth place and not, as I expected, a bottom 6 club.

We are a bottom six club on a bottom six budget with bottom six players. It''s delusional to think we should be pushing for tenth, but as any supporter I hope and prey it just might happen,

OTBC

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Phew. A breath of fresh air from the more angst ridden threads.   A realistic view KTF.   With my positive hat on I would say that if Hughton can get the team performing to its utmost and playing with confidence, that anything is possible, but you are right, the chances are that we are at the moment achieving well if we manage to stay in the league.  We are a well run club and that helps and if we can develop the team and finances over the next few years so we can  emulate for example Everton under Moyes, then we will be doing very well. 

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Good post OP.

The only thing I disagree with is your last sentence about us being relegation fodder. We are better than that no matter who is in charge and I''m sticking to my pre-season forecast of 14th (making us a bottom 7 team, for this season anyway).

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"the silent majority"

Can you prove this or is it just a hunch?

I don''t think any of us are capable of even guessing what proportion of our support are content and what proportion are not content.

But the fast dwindling away support would suggest that there are some real issues.

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I know and work with a lot of City fans, none of them are happy with Hoots!

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I suspect that the inners exceed the outers except amongst those of us awayers which, based on on the discussions I''ve had, the outers would be in the majority. Will update after the defeat tomorrow.

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[quote user="Le Juge"]"the silent majority"

Can you prove this or is it just a hunch?

I don''t think any of us are capable of even guessing what proportion of our support are content and what proportion are not content.

But the fast dwindling away support would suggest that there are some real issues.[/quote]

I think you will find out we''ve sold out tomorrow, LJ.  The issues on Wednesday were more to do with cost and travel time on a working day.  I know because that is the reason I didn''t go. 

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Yes LDC it was a school night, a cold night, a long old journey in tough economic times just after the last paycheque before xmas (for some). But it was still Liverpool at Anfield, and previous midweek games suggest that when people want to go they will find a way.

I can remember sitting with many more at around the same time of year midweek in League One and the Championship.

It is much much easier to get an away ticket this season, none of this third pick allocation super draft rubbish or collecting points and stubs. I know that because I''ve got a mate going (because he wants to see his old Brummie uni mates) and this is his first game of the season.

The away following has dwindled, I''m sure of that.

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[quote user="Le Juge"]Yes LDC it was a school night, a cold night, a long old journey in tough economic times just after the last paycheque before xmas (for some). But it was still Liverpool at Anfield, and previous midweek games suggest that when people want to go they will find a way.

I can remember sitting with many more at around the same time of year midweek in League One and the Championship.

It is much much easier to get an away ticket this season, none of this third pick allocation super draft rubbish or collecting points and stubs. I know that because I''ve got a mate going (because he wants to see his old Brummie uni mates) and this is his first game of the season.

The away following has dwindled, I''m sure of that.[/quote]

Probably, but it was always said that once the first season of premiership was out of the way and the novelty worn off, that demand would drop a bit, regardless of who was manager.   But I agree its also true that if we were looking better away from home, more people would want to go.  

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[quote user="Nexus_Canary"]OP you make me want to vomit, silent majority... prat[/quote]

So the OP posted something you don''t agree with.

Fair enough, but instead of name calling why not state what you disagree with and why?

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Like the OP I read the forum most days and have been supporting NCFC since being brought to this fine city by a Norwich girl many years ago. Even when we moved away to London, Bristol, and Ireland I still watched the team when I could. My son was the only one in his school with a NCFC kit in all those places and is now a Lower Barclay season ticket holder.I think the OP and I have similar thoughts - we are a lower to mid-table side at the moment. Our aim at the start of each season is, first and foremost, to stay in the division (which I imagine is the same for the rest of the bottom 7 or 8 clubs). If it goes well through the first few weeks confidence - and perhaps unrealistic ambitions - rise in both players and fans. If it starts to go wrong it all feels so much worse and often reasoned thinking goes out of the window and everything gets catastrophised.I would love us to play exciting, attacking football every week. I would love us to give the top 6 a game every time rather than only on occasions and more often than not be on the receiving end. I would love every player to be uninjured and on top form every game. I would love it if they didn''t make mistakes. But that''s not football. I, like many others, am not enjoying the football we are playing some of the time at the moment, but it''s not all bad.There are statistics to show how good we are and/or how poor we are on most threads on here - make them say what you want. We have come ''back from the dead'', ''division 3'', ''league one'' and are building again - and yes, I think 3rd year is still building. Firm foundations of a financially stable club, not feast and famine like some who have tried to run before they can walk. I for one support NCFC, I love supporting NCFC, I am proud to support NCFC, I have in the past and will in the future travel to the likes of Walsall and Bristol or Manchester and Newcastle to watch them whichever division we play in. For the record - and given current stats - I think we will be at the top table next season. It might not be pretty but as the OP says it takes time.

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[quote user="Chippy Minton"]Like the OP I read the forum most days and have been supporting NCFC since being brought to this fine city by a Norwich girl many years ago. Even when we moved away to London, Bristol, and Ireland I still watched the team when I could. My son was the only one in his school with a NCFC kit in all those places and is now a Lower Barclay season ticket holder.I think the OP and I have similar thoughts - we are a lower to mid-table side at the moment. Our aim at the start of each season is, first and foremost, to stay in the division (which I imagine is the same for the rest of the bottom 7 or 8 clubs). If it goes well through the first few weeks confidence - and perhaps unrealistic ambitions - rise in both players and fans. If it starts to go wrong it all feels so much worse and often reasoned thinking goes out of the window and everything gets catastrophised.I would love us to play exciting, attacking football every week. I would love us to give the top 6 a game every time rather than only on occasions and more often than not be on the receiving end. I would love every player to be uninjured and on top form every game. I would love it if they didn''t make mistakes. But that''s not football. I, like many others, am not enjoying the football we are playing some of the time at the moment, but it''s not all bad.There are statistics to show how good we are and/or how poor we are on most threads on here - make them say what you want. We have come ''back from the dead'', ''division 3'', ''league one'' and are building again - and yes, I think 3rd year is still building. Firm foundations of a financially stable club, not feast and famine like some who have tried to run before they can walk. I for one support NCFC, I love supporting NCFC, I am proud to support NCFC, I have in the past and will in the future travel to the likes of Walsall and Bristol or Manchester and Newcastle to watch them whichever division we play in. For the record - and given current stats - I think we will be at the top table next season. It might not be pretty but as the OP says it takes time.[/quote]

Top post Yes [Y]

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I too love my club. My love affair began as a four year old with my first home game. Martin Peters, Kevin Reeve, Justin Fashanu, Kevin Keelan... Great days and great team.

My take is simple. If the players give their all when they cross that line then I cannot ask any more of them. I am proud of them. If the manager is building and there is progress, however we may choose to measure that progress, then I am happy.

I am happy with our league position. I would live better and do feel it probably could be better, but it could be worse also.

I am happy, for now, that Hughton is making some progress in those games I feel we should compete in. I am not happy with the manner of some of our away defeats although the Liverpool game is an odd one. We played ok in large chunks but the players let themselves down at key times. I am concerned that Hughton is not a manager that inspires his players to go on to greater heights and that he actually enables poor performances with his man-management skills. Overall I am not convinced of progress but am open to sensible arguments that it is there.

I am concerned that our players are not playing for their place in the way that they have had to before. I feel this more than anything else is our problem - complacency leading to a drop in confidence. I can only put this complacency at the feet of the manager.

I like Hughton. He is a nice guy. But I am getting tired of the platitudes. I want to see passion. I want to see leadership. I want to see it from Hughton but I am not expecting it.

On balance we probably need a change but a planned change with a replacement lined up and ready to go with the smoothest of transitions. The last thing we need is instability. Better to keep Hughton than that.

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I agree, Keckers, a planned change would be best all round to keep the stability. As you say CH''s man-management appears to us on the outside to be poor.The progress I see is on the financial front that should make us more competitive in the transfer market. We are also attracting a higher calibre of player than we used to (Fer and Van Wolfswinkel) and keeping them from top 4 poachers (Ruddy).If we can get some results and stabilise in mid-table, those two facts could set us up for the next step up.A manager with tactical know-how and a good coaching staff is the missing link for that step up.

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[quote user="Chippy Minton"]I agree, Keckers, a planned change would be best all round to keep the stability. As you say CH''s masn-management appears to us on the outside to be poor.The progress I see is on the financial front that should make us more competitive in the transfer market. We are also attracting a higher calibre of player than we used to (Fer and Van Wolfswinkel) and keeping them from top 4 poachers (Ruddy).If we can get some results and stabilise in mid-table, those two facts could set us up for the next step up.A manager with tactical know-how and a good coaching staff is the missing link for that step up.[/quote]

The time for a change in my opinion is end of this season, other than a possible addition to the coaching staff.

I can only see a management change happening before the end of the season if we slip back into the relegation places and / or we have to endure any away no shows against teams we are more than capable of competing with.

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The OP makes a decent discussion, and has written a top post. What a lovely change!

But from my point of view, if we''re a bottom 6 club, on a bottom 6 budget, why we''re we the 8th (?) highest spenders in the summer, and our chairman stated that Hughtons aim was to finish in the top half. Regardless of what the fans think, it appears the hierarchy inside the club do not agree with you. To sack the manager is a gamble, simple as that. My view is that if you''re conceding 7,5 or 4 every time you play these big games, your manager is not doing something he should. Surely, if as the players keep saying, these games are what you dream of playing, motivation shouldn''t be a problem. None of the other ''bottom 6'' clubs are losing these matches so feebly, capitulating in the games that their players have admitted they dream of playing in. Honestly, as it stands, I think we''ll go down. And it could well come down to goal difference. Unless we start winning some games 7-0, these games are going to be why.

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Whilst I agree with the OP that we are one of the smallest teams in the PL and personally would be delighted if we could become an established mid table team I still don''t think criticising CH is out of place. I also don''t believe that most fans are content with CH.

Under Lambert we went into most games thinking we could win and played with confidence, positivity and bravery. It was fun watching NCFC and it was exciting being on that gutsy ride. When we lost we still left most matches accepting that we couldn''t have spent any more sweat or given anything else.

But, under CH this season we just seem to be an absolute push over away from home, an easy stroll for the top teams and a hesitant, low scoring and dull side in all other matches.

You can''t help having major doubts if you think (like me) that, despite the multi millions spent, Lambert''s team of two seasons back would beat Hughton''s team now.

Quite simply, we have become less rather than more than the sum of our parts and we need a manager who can rectify this. Just because we are a small Prem team doesn''t mean that we have to accept stale, unsuccessful and uninspired football.

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Lambert, Lambert, Lambert.

Money, Money, Money.

Lamberts team wouldn''t beat our team now for love nor money! Tierney up against Redmond, Snodgrass or even Murphy.....Hooper or RVW against Ward and Ayala? Fer against Fox? You have to progress just to stand still. Our expenditure, while big for us, was peanuts in the bigger scheme of things. Cardiff spent big, Fulham spend fortunes on wages, West Ham threw all their eggs in the Carroll basket but are still playing and paying the likes of Joe Cole, Southampton bought 8 figure players in Osvaldo and Wanyama. We''ve got better players but so have everybody else.

People talk about little Norwich mindset but thinking that 25m outlay should have us competing as a top half Premier side is exactly that. How many clubs in the Prem have spent more than our summer outlay on a SINGLE player?

Of course we want to be comfortable but the reality is that we''re not going to be for a good while yet. If ever.

We are in the bottom 12 in the Prem. Every year, three of those will get relegated. It will come down to fine margins. Last year we were 4 points from 8th, 4 from 17th.

Do we want to finish as high up the table as possible? Do we want to strive to be the best we can be?

Of course.

Just don''t ever get so complacent that you think staying up isn''t an achievement. Three teams every season fail to achieve it and some of them have spent a shed load more than we have failing miserably.

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]Lambert, Lambert, Lambert.

Money, Money, Money.

Lamberts team wouldn''t beat our team now for love nor money! Tierney up against Redmond, Snodgrass or even Murphy.....Hooper or RVW against Ward and Ayala? Fer against Fox? You have to progress just to stand still. Our expenditure, while big for us, was peanuts in the bigger scheme of things. Cardiff spent big, Fulham spend fortunes on wages, West Ham threw all their eggs in the Carroll basket but are still playing and paying the likes of Joe Cole, Southampton bought 8 figure players in Osvaldo and Wanyama. We''ve got better players but so have everybody else.

People talk about little Norwich mindset but thinking that 25m outlay should have us competing as a top half Premier side is exactly that. How many clubs in the Prem have spent more than our summer outlay on a SINGLE player?

Of course we want to be comfortable but the reality is that we''re not going to be for a good while yet. If ever.

We are in the bottom 12 in the Prem. Every year, three of those will get relegated. It will come down to fine margins. Last year we were 4 points from 8th, 4 from 17th.

Do we want to finish as high up the table as possible? Do we want to strive to be the best we can be?

Of course.

Just don''t ever get so complacent that you think staying up isn''t an achievement. Three teams every season fail to achieve it and some of them have spent a shed load more than we have failing miserably.[/quote]

Yes, Hughton''s players are of a higher calibre but Lambert''s over performed and that''s why I think they would beat our current squad.

I want a manager who makes our players play at least to their potential and I''m certain Hughton doesn''t do this. We should be better than what we are with what we have.

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Thanks most of you for some great responses.

The vitriol on here after we lose a match is not in balance with the near silence after a win. I do holy beleiev we will stay up with our current manager, that Is his only goal.

The players need to take a lot of responsibility on the pitch but most of them are on borrowed time at this club. We will build a team over the next few seasons that will start to compete. Then dreams can come true.

OTBC

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I certainly agree with most of this. However, I personally feel that this team, even with injuries, can and should play better, I really didnt like the way we caved in at Man City in particular. They really must improve over the next four games (we need them all to start "playing for the shirt") and produce some results to prove to us all that they deserve our support long term. I am confident that they will do enough, this will be followed by some of the injured players coming back, maybe a little dabbling in the January transfer window......and then we can all start to enjoy the season a little more.  

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I agree with a lot of this but I feel fans are not unrealistic to expect the team to at least be competitive away from home. Let''s face it just 4 more points from away games this season and there would probably be next to no pressure on Hughton, the trouble is we have looked miles away from getting them.

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