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MancCanary

Interesting article about Dortmund's "counter-pressing" tactic

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Just read a great article about German football, and Dortmund''s return to greatness in particular. In said article is a very interesting section about the "counter-pressing" tactic which they are said to play - a kind of spin on Spain''s style it seems. I know we don''t have the ability of that team, but in players like Redmond, E Bennett, Fer, Hoolahan, RVW and perhaps Hooper I think we could play this tactic effectively in the premiership, especially against the bottom half teams. The philosophy of it sounds good to me...I''ll quote from the article:

"It was a style of play Germans had begun to refer to as "counter pressing". It basically meant that if a player lost the ball far upfield, his team-mates did not retreat or swarm out in anticipation of a counter-attack. Instead they moved further forward to immediately put pressure on the opposing player with the ball.

It was highly effective tactic, because the man in possession was often forced to rush his pass and if it was intercepted, it happened in a dangerous area of the pitch. But it was also a tactic that demanded an awful lot of running – not to mention a lot of practice – from the players.

Six weeks after the World Cup, Klopp unleashed counter pressing of a rarely seen intensity. His young team seemed to be constantly in attack, even against strong opposition, and created a plethora of chances. Even though Dortmund managed to waste most of them (missing all of their five penalties), they ran away with the League – and won both games against Bayern."

Obviously you''re all going to say we can''t play like that. But imagine players like Redmond and Bennett (perhps Murphys too?) snapping away at the defenders, forcing them into errors.

I think we actually played like this against Cardiff first half! Just a pity nothing went in the net that day.

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The gegenpress is a highly effective system for Dortmund - but it is one which has been built over a long period of time with very specalist training. It isn''t a system a team can just switch to over night. It also has some massive weaknesses as if the opposing team get past the initial press, they then have very little opposition right up to the edge of the Dortmund box. It has also been hard for Dortmund to play this system over a sustained period of time as it is incredibly hard on players - Klopp has said he can only allow his players to play with such intensity due to the winter break in German football given them a chance to recharge their batteries mid season.

 

Every player that Dortmund have signed since 2008 when Klopp moved to Dortmund has been purchased with this system in mind and it was a long term plan. It will be interesting to see how Klopp copes if he ever switches clubs, because it will be very hard for him to deliver instant success.

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Sounds quite similar to Barcelona when they dont have the ball. We have played like this on certain occasions, the Stoke away game comes to mind, and this kind of relentless pressure is what allows work-rate to overcome superior ability. Its how we''ve got some of our best results. Its been torture to watch us back off and allow great players time and space to decide exactly how theyre going to carve us up, when we''ve seen such a tactic work so well. Why we can play like we did against Stoke away but choose to do what we actually do is the most baffling thing for me about Hughton''s reign. We have some players with a fantastic work-rate, notably E Bennett and Hoolahan, so definitely think this could be successful for us

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]Sounds quite similar to Barcelona when they dont have the ball. We have played like this on certain occasions, the Stoke away game comes to mind, and this kind of relentless pressure is what allows work-rate to overcome superior ability. Its how we''ve got some of our best results. Its been torture to watch us back off and allow great players time and space to decide exactly how theyre going to carve us up, when we''ve seen such a tactic work so well. Why we can play like we did against Stoke away but choose to do what we actually do is the most baffling thing for me about Hughton''s reign. We have some players with a fantastic work-rate, notably E Bennett and Hoolahan, so definitely think this could be successful for us[/quote]

 

I think it is fairly obvious and Hughton has talked about this before - against Stoke it is much easier to press high and hard, they don''t have players with the quality to avoid the presser and pass through the midfield. Norwich attempted to press Arsenal high after going behind at the Emirates and it meant they could breeze through the midfield with quick, crisp passing.

 

The results Norwich got against Arsenal, Man U and Tottenham last season came from sitting deep, not pressing in the opposition half and not allowing any space around their own box. This work very well. If you push to high up the pitch against technically excellent teams you leave yourself very exposed at the back. When Dortmund played Arsenal at the Emirates this season they didn''t press them high for this exact reason - they sat deeper and used pace to counter them.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]Sounds quite similar to Barcelona when they dont have the ball. We have played like this on certain occasions, the Stoke away game comes to mind, and this kind of relentless pressure is what allows work-rate to overcome superior ability. Its how we''ve got some of our best results. Its been torture to watch us back off and allow great players time and space to decide exactly how theyre going to carve us up, when we''ve seen such a tactic work so well. Why we can play like we did against Stoke away but choose to do what we actually do is the most baffling thing for me about Hughton''s reign. We have some players with a fantastic work-rate, notably E Bennett and Hoolahan, so definitely think this could be successful for us[/quote]

 

I think it is fairly obvious and Hughton has talked about this before - against Stoke it is much easier to press high and hard, they don''t have players with the quality to avoid the presser and pass through the midfield. Norwich attempted to press Arsenal high after going behind at the Emirates and it meant they could breeze through the midfield with quick, crisp passing.

 

The results Norwich got against Arsenal, Man U and Tottenham last season came from sitting deep, not pressing in the opposition half and not allowing any space around their own box. This work very well. If you push to high up the pitch against technically excellent teams you leave yourself very exposed at the back. When Dortmund played Arsenal at the Emirates this season they didn''t press them high for this exact reason - they sat deeper and used pace to counter them.

[/quote]

 

A good point, and very well made. But I dont really see how we would have lost by any more goals if we''d have done this. We got whooped anyway. Sitting deep hasnt worked this season, although I do agree it was what scraped those results out in the unbeaten run we had. In terms of pressing and results I was talking more about the Lambert era, Hughton has rarely had us playing to such an intensity. If sitting deep and absorbing pressure worked well for us and teams found us hard to break down - as was the case in the unbeaten run - I might understand thae tactic. But to keep doing it week in week out, after watching it fail is baffling. We havent looked hard to break down at all this season, whereas during the unbeaten run we looked impenetrable. Arsenal particularly looked forlorn at both Carrow Road and the Emirates. It just hasnt worked this season and I dont know why he seems to think we can keep them out for 90 minutes. Watching Norwich away against the big clubs just seems to be us inviting attack after attack, and waiting for their inevitible goal. When the goal does come, it seems like the gameplan has been skittled. Often in the first 10 minutes. And there is no plan B. With than in mind, I dont see how high intensity pressing and not allowing these talented players the room to do what they do would prove less effective. Would we have conceded more than the 7 we did against Man City, cause that game could and should have been double figures, and we looked to have no ability to stop them scoring almost at will

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I think the Arsenal game is a good example.  After we went a goal down, we pressed high and were on top for a period, both before and after half-time, with decent chances but we didn''t take them. Then they were able to open us up with one quality move end-to-end, and finish by Ozul.

 

At 2-0 down after a few minutes we got back into it and Howson scored on 70 minutes.  We continued to press high and Arsenal looked distinctly wobbly but again we weren''t able to take advantage, and with our team tiring towards the end they were able to score a couple of late goals which gave a final 4-1 score which was massively flattering for them.

 

I think the reality is that against the top teams, especially away, we need to be on the top of our game with a bit of luck, and for them to play below their best to get anything.  If you concede a goal to a 35 yard wonder strike or a double deflection that leaves the goalie stranded, it''s probably not going to be your day.  At Arsenal if we''d taken our chances, we''d have got something, but they have better finishers so most of the time they will finish better than us.

 

I still think a high-pressing game, for at least some of the match, is our best chance of getting results away from home, and I''m hoping we do it tomorrow.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]The gegenpress is a highly effective system for Dortmund - but it is one which has been built over a long period of time with very specalist training.[/quote]Very specialist training from very special doctors

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

The gegenpress is a highly effective system for Dortmund - but it is one which has been built over a long period of time with very specalist training. It isn''t a system a team can just switch to over night. It also has some massive weaknesses as if the opposing team get past the initial press, they then have very little opposition right up to the edge of the Dortmund box. It has also been hard for Dortmund to play this system over a sustained period of time as it is incredibly hard on players - Klopp has said he can only allow his players to play with such intensity due to the winter break in German football given them a chance to recharge their batteries mid season.

 

Every player that Dortmund have signed since 2008 when Klopp moved to Dortmund has been purchased with this system in mind and it was a long term plan. It will be interesting to see how Klopp copes if he ever switches clubs, because it will be very hard for him to deliver instant success.

[/quote]

Bethnal - very interesting, thanks for the info I didn''t know any of that. I can see that Dortmund''s pressing game is uniquely intensive and probably not suitable for us to attempt.. but as others have pointed out below I do think the philosophy of putting good players under pressure when they get the ball (so they rush passes, or have their good pass cut out by one of our pressers) is the same whatever the skill level. As someone else said too (Sorry I can''t see who it was now), we''ve been tonked by all the big teams so far by playing a deep game and allowing them onto us.

I think getting in their faces not only restricts the number of chances they have, but it breeds confidence in our players and fans, and knocks it out of the opposition. The benefits are more than just about player placement and on-field tactics - I think it helps to create a no-fear type ambiance around the team and stadium, and we all know if you''re the opposition, it''s a more daunting prospect to face an opponent who displays no fear than one who does!

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"I think getting in their faces not only restricts the number of chances they have, but it breeds confidence in our players and fans, and knocks it out of the opposition. The benefits are more than just about player placement and on-field tactics - I think it helps to create a no-fear type ambiance around the team and stadium, and we all know if you''re the opposition, it''s a more daunting prospect to face an opponent who displays no fear than one who does! "

Agree with this and an effective use of subs to maintain the pressing as some players will get tired

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We don''t have to try and play it in the same way as Dortmund. We don''t need to "not get back into position" but push instead. We can even set up extremely defensively rather than attacking, and still push higher up the pitch and press more.

Even Hughton alluded to the fact that we gave Suarez too much time and space. That has been a problem throughout his time here, other than in a couple of games.

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Tactics.1. It annoys me that we don''t close down on players fast enough (high up the field or deeper back) if a player is rushed into a pass, that pass will not be as good as a player with time. Jack Charlton always used to say don''t give them time to get their heads up. 2. Speed of play, we tend to attack and pass very slowly, it''s gotta be faster and sharper, not allowing the opposition to get ''their shape'' Martin O''Neil was a great exponent of this at Leicester.I''m sure the management and staff have talked this over, but the only changes I''ve seen is to occasionally change wingers around (a good move) and more emphasis on attack, which has not helped a great deal. maybe they need a longer conversation !

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