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Interesting article on Eurosport suggests the players are not the problem- the tactics are:

Optimism was high at Norwich and Tottenham following a transfer window of steady investment. The Canaries brought in Gary Hooper and Ricky van Wolfswinkel upfront while Spurs pinned their hopes on Valencia’s Roberto Soldado - strikers who feed off crosses. And yet both sides continue to employ bizarre tactics which sees their wingers drift inside and have a crack at goal from just about anywhere.

And the similarities don''t end there. They''re also guilty of playing pointless sideways passes and are all too happy to slow down the play. Spurs may sit sixth in the league and 10 points clear of Norwich, but that’s as much down to a string of soft penalties and, in their last two games against Fulham and Sunderland, a slice of good fortune. The duo picked up wins this weekend but unless they address their alarming tactical faults, it''s going to be a long season for both clubs.

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An interesting comment but neither Hooper nor RVW are exactly Grant Holt who''d love a stream of crosses peppered in.  If you look at Hooper''s goal on Saturday it followed Redmond cutting inside and playing a sideways ball to Fer who played a pass down the channel for Hooper.

 

I agree though that sometimes we could be more direct though, like our second goal on Saturday.

 

I wonder if players are influenced by individual passing stats to play more safe sideways balls and fewer attacking balls, because it will improve their pass accuracy percentages ? 

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There is nothing more effective in football at the moment than the inverted winger, look at Robben, Ribery, Ronaldo, Bale, Reus etc. Being able to cut inside onto the attackers preferred foot (whilst forcing the defending full back onto their weaker side) is proven to be incredibly hard to defend against - it has become as better option as rules on tackling in the box have become tighter over the years.

 

The role of the striker is also changing, it is much more about creating space for other attacking players as well as providing a platform to build attacks off now, more the days of the goal ''poacher'' in top leagues is fading.

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Sorry Bethnal but I would only agree if I felt we had that quality of player (we don''t) Pilkington, Snodgrass, Redmond, Bennett or Murphy will not score the goals to keep us up.

Thankfully it would seem that at long last Hughton has realised this and is trying to get the strikers involved and scoring (only took 15 months)

We do not have any wide forwards of the type you suggest so they should start doing what they are there for getting the ball to the striker.

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I think there is an element of both cutting in and flinging it into the box needed. At times we''ve had opportunities to put the ball in and not done so.

But then, you also have to look at how many players we get into the box. I don''t particularly fancy the chances of one of Hooper or Van Wolfswinkel alone in the box against two huge centre halves, a full back and a holding midfieder who has tucked back in. If you''re not getting men in the box, a cross isn''t always the best option.

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Im certainly not an expert on Gary Hooper, but what struck me about most of the Gary Hooper goals you would see on Sky News as they insited on ramming scottish football down your throat was that they were similar to saturdays. My perception of Hooper is that that was a typical goal for him. Lets hope we can continue to play to his strengths

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"Robben, Ribery, Ronaldo, Bale,"

Aside from the obvious response that these are international players who are arguably world class there is much more to it than that.

The primary thing being that the team around them is also pretty darn good. They almost play as wing-forwards rather than traditional wide men. And in most examples have been deployed as strikers due to their high scoring rates.

Redmond actually does remind me a bit of Ronaldo when he first went to Man Utd in that his final ball - crossing and shooting, still needed a lot of work. He had the skill and the talent, that was there to be seen.

I could see redmond playing up front as a deep lying striker if we had the sort of player to really spearhead an attack like that.

Despite what people say, Pilkington is probably the only other winger we have that can say he has played in that role which is probably why he gets goals when he is fit.

However, I would agree with the overall picture in that Redmond has looked far more dangerous down the right than the left, where he can put first time balls in much sooner to catch teams off guard, much as Walcott does for Arsenal.

Down the left his pace is almost wasted as what ground he has is then lost as he turns inside unless he is properly away and very clear.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

There is nothing more effective in football at the moment than the inverted winger, look at Robben, Ribery, Ronaldo, Bale, Reus etc. Being able to cut inside onto the attackers preferred foot (whilst forcing the defending full back onto their weaker side) is proven to be incredibly hard to defend against - it has become as better option as rules on tackling in the box have become tighter over the years.

 

The role of the striker is also changing, it is much more about creating space for other attacking players as well as providing a platform to build attacks off now, more the days of the goal ''poacher'' in top leagues is fading.

[/quote]The role of the poacher is diminishing but we''ve signed two of them so maybe we should try to make the best of their talents instead of watching players trained as normal wingers repeatedly blasting shots over the bar playing the inverted role.Its all very well pointing out complete, well rounded footballers that are good at playing on the ''wrong'' side but unfortunately they don''t play for us.

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Hooper isnt the sort of striker you ping crosses in to, he likes the angled "Ball to feet" approach.

i would be interested to see over the last 10 seasons a chart that shows the number of goals from crosses in the premier league....

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[quote user="chicken"]"Robben, Ribery, Ronaldo, Bale," Aside from the obvious response that these are international players who are arguably world class there is much more to it than that. The primary thing being that the team around them is also pretty darn good. They almost play as wing-forwards rather than traditional wide men. And in most examples have been deployed as strikers due to their high scoring rates. Redmond actually does remind me a bit of Ronaldo when he first went to Man Utd in that his final ball - crossing and shooting, still needed a lot of work. He had the skill and the talent, that was there to be seen. I could see redmond playing up front as a deep lying striker if we had the sort of player to really spearhead an attack like that. Despite what people say, Pilkington is probably the only other winger we have that can say he has played in that role which is probably why he gets goals when he is fit. However, I would agree with the overall picture in that Redmond has looked far more dangerous down the right than the left, where he can put first time balls in much sooner to catch teams off guard, much as Walcott does for Arsenal. Down the left his pace is almost wasted as what ground he has is then lost as he turns inside unless he is properly away and very clear.[/quote]

 

I use those names as they are high profile and well known, but there are countless other players of lesser ability playing very well and highly effectively in the inverted role. If a team is only playing one striker then pushing a winger out to the byline is a bad idea, the chances of a cross from that wide out finding the one striker who is clear of any defenders is tiny.

 

People talk about Redmond''s lack of end product, which is true, but the fact he is getting so many shooting chances (he''s had 33 shots already this season) is because he is playing on the left rather than the right - it is a shame he hasn''t been more accurate with those chances so far but if he can start to improve this side of his game (and he has recently talked about staying on behind at training to focus on shooting) then he will become Norwich''s most effective attacking player - pushing him onto the right negates those abilities and will force him to cross to strikers who aren''t going to win many headers against 6ft plus defenders. Also, his one goal came from the left and his two assists in open play have both come the left - so while it is unfair to compare to his performances on the right which have been fairly few - he is showing some end product that side.

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Ok.

Ronaldo at Man Utd was played as a right winger, he sometimes still is at Real Madrid and I believe the idea of them signing Bale was to have him on the left with Ron on the right. To be fair to the both of them they have proven they can hit it with either foot quite happily when needed.

As I said, at a lower level, it may still work more so long as those wide players are used more as wing forwards rather than traditional wide men. Ours are two deep to be really classed as wing forwards.

That was until Saturday ofcourse where they were encouraged to get forwards with pace to support Hooper and it worked, that''s actually how we scored the first goal.

We were playing a 4-3-3 counter game. Fer wasn''t inside at all, it is where he was told to get to when we broke, as was Redmond.

As for wide play. I really wish some one would call Wenger and tell him he has got it all wrong. And whilst you are there have a word with Pellegrini - his name is Jesus, he should be left wing!

Lastly - as your mum has probably said to you a lot of times, just because someone else has done it, doesn''t mean you should.

Pffft, I always knew that Theo Walcott should play on the left wing.

Defensively it actually weakens your team too.

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on this subject, its baffled me for a while, why we don''t see more use of "inverted full backs" to combat the "inverted winger",

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We have been undone fairly frequently down the centre by quick raiding players like Suarez and Bale before him. Recently we have shown a dangerous indecision to crosses with pace in the air across our six yard line, with defenders out of position and Ruddy seemingly transfixed.

Either can de dangerous. One of our problems ironically is that Redmond is so quick, and on Saturday got past his two markers so easily, that he was reduced to running towards the goal along the by-line because no other City player was near enough to pass to.

If you are pressed back/ playing too deeply, and quick winger gets forward, he has to wait for Elmander and Hooper to arrive. Significantly our second goal came when Fer, one of our best movers was up with Redmond, and the latter could make a simple but accurate pass.

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[quote user="chicken"]Ok. Ronaldo at Man Utd was played as a right winger, he sometimes still is at Real Madrid and I believe the idea of them signing Bale was to have him on the left with Ron on the right. To be fair to the both of them they have proven they can hit it with either foot quite happily when needed. As I said, at a lower level, it may still work more so long as those wide players are used more as wing forwards rather than traditional wide men. Ours are two deep to be really classed as wing forwards. That was until Saturday ofcourse where they were encouraged to get forwards with pace to support Hooper and it worked, that''s actually how we scored the first goal. We were playing a 4-3-3 counter game. Fer wasn''t inside at all, it is where he was told to get to when we broke, as was Redmond. As for wide play. I really wish some one would call Wenger and tell him he has got it all wrong. And whilst you are there have a word with Pellegrini - his name is Jesus, he should be left wing! Lastly - as your mum has probably said to you a lot of times, just because someone else has done it, doesn''t mean you should. Pffft, I always knew that Theo Walcott should play on the left wing. Defensively it actually weakens your team too.[/quote]

 

No need to get so sarcastic and arrogant. Ronaldo was played right wing and left wing at United - he most effective season was when he was in the attacking 3 with Rooney and Tevez - they would all rotate positions but Ronaldo mostly played left wing (his goal against Fulham being a prime example from that season) - when Bale and Ronaldo have both played for Real Ronaldo was left wing and Bale right wing, after Ronaldo''s recent injury Bale has contiuned to play on the right - although both players will rotate positions and regulary pop up on either wing or centrally.

 

In my first post on this thread I wasn''t relating is specifically to Norwich - just a reply to the comments made in the Eurosport piece as quoted which were saying that a lack of crossing was an issue for Tottenham and Norwich (which doesn''t really figure as Norwich hit a hell of a lot of crosses, both from the fullbacks and wide men). Of course inverted wingers isn''t right for every team and every player. I was highlightening the fact that pretty much all of the most successful teams in Europe now are playing one or two inverted wingers, and the role of the striker is changing.

 

Also your comments about Wenger and Pellegrini are a bit strange as Arsenal have been playing with the left footed Wilshere on the right and Man City have used Nasri on the left and Silva on the right.

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"Also your comments about Wenger and Pellegrini are a bit strange as Arsenal have been playing with the left footed Wilshere on the right and Man City have used Nasri on the left and Silva on the right."

Arsenals prefered starting 11 features Podolski and Walcott - both of whom are out injured. Podolski on the left and Walcott on the right. First off, as I said earlier, neither are really wingers but their role is to provide width and crosses to Girroud. Corzola and Wilshere do the same.

Pellegrini has shown that for the bigger games his prefered man on the right is Navras. And Nasri has been played on the right for them before now as well.

Those were the points I was referring to. And again, as I have pointed out, we are not really talking about wide men in the way that we (Norwich) deploy them.

" (which doesn''t really figure as Norwich hit a hell of a lot of crosses, both from the fullbacks and wide men)"

As I said, this is why we shouldn''t play with inverted wingers. If we are going to cross then do it when there is more of an advantage - as in crossing from the by-line rather than cutting inside and making it easy for the defenders who will be heading or kicking any ball away from goal.

If we are going to be more direct and get those wide players up and in support of the lone striker as we did on Sunday then it makes more sense. But more often than not we don''t and you can see why someone may question the tactics in that sense.

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Interesting reading. Personally I favour crossing from the by line as the ball is then (typically) moving away from the keeper and defenders and onto the heads of oncoming forwards, however, inverted or not, byline or cut inside, surely a professional footballer should be able to use both feet, I know there will always be a favoured foot but if someone offered me x thousands of £s per week I would damn well make sure I could cross a ball with either foot so I had the option to make the most of whatever opportunity was created or presented to me.

It''s only a matter of practice, practice, practice, which then creates the neural connections (habit) in the brain to send the appropriate message to the body to perform the task.

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[quote user="chicken"] As I said, this is why we shouldn''t play with inverted wingers. If we are going to cross then do it when there is more of an advantage - as in crossing from the by-line rather than cutting inside and making it easy for the defenders who will be heading or kicking any ball away from goal. If we are going to be more direct and get those wide players up and in support of the lone striker as we did on Sunday then it makes more sense. But more often than not we don''t and you can see why someone may question the tactics in that sense.[/quote]

I agree that crosses that a made by an attacking cutting back in are probably less effective, but the cross from the by-line only works if you have 2 or 3 attacking players in the box - as Norwich play only one striker and don''t always get forward in great numbers this is rare. A cross from the by-line is easy to defend if there is no one attacking it. I feel playing inverted works better in this situation as it allows other players to get into the box, and it allows the wide players to look up and pick out a man rather than the more ''hit and hope'' cross. The Bradley Johnson goal against Liverpool showed this, Redmond could pick out a man and hit him with the perfect cross - anything else would have been easy for Liverpool to defend against as they had 3 or 4 more players in the box than Norwich. I would expect Martin/Whittaker and Olsson to provide an outlet for a more whipped outswinging cross, having a left footed winger on the left wing in front of the left footed Olsson means there is less variety in delivery.

 

In defensive coaching you hear time and time again to force a winger away from goal and down the wing, regardless of which foot they prefer using, as a cross from a wider position is always easier to defend (unless it was Beckham who was  incredible at hitting a man from any position). I think most teams defending against Norwich would be happy to push our wingers out wide, as they will back thier own centre backs to deal with any crosses better than Hooper or RvW.

 

I''m not saying Norwich have been using the system to good effect, obviously not, but Snodgrass was by far the most creative player last season, from set pieces and open play, and that all came from him cutting inside pick out a player or take the shot himself. In the few games Hughton used him on the left he was totally ineffective as he doesn''t have the pace to get to the by-line and cross.

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Thought this piece from bwin betting was worth a read, as fits nicely under the thread''s theme: "The Canaries ability to collect three points against the teams around them could see Chris Hughton’s side nab a hotly-contested top-ten finish, for which they are currently priced at a monstrous 9/1. The Canaries have the sixth best record against bottom-half teams in the Premier League, winning four out of six. Heavy losses at top sides will hurt, but Hughton will know that the success of his team’s season will be based on how they perform against teams not chasing European football. Four wins against other bottom-half sides in six games shows that Norwich have got their priorities right so far in the campaign. Four of Norwich’s five games over the Yuletide season come against teams in the bottom-half. After facing nine of the top ten teams in the Premier League already, the Canaries are due a kind run of fixtures and the hectic Christmas schedule could see them soar up the table. Currently just two points off tenth place, if Norwich maintain their form against bottom-half sides in the next few weeks they will put themselves in an excellent position to better their 11th-place finish from last season".

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Bravo Bethnal, good analysis

The "winger flies down the wing, crosses into box for les Ferdinand to power a header home" is nostalgic and statistically unlikely the way Norwich play. It is fairly poor odds for any team now (though memorable when it does, meaning it makes a stronger "imprint" on watching supporters..)

Given our propensity to sit deep, build slowly and retain shape guarding against turnovers, inverted wingers shooting from between opposition defensive and midfield lines is a logical and common ploy (as stats show). To link to a famous thread young Quagliarella was eyed for this reason, to drop into and shoot from that space. As you state, a mobile running striker, or a Dutch 9 fixed pivot can be used to create this space. Whilst appearing isolated, it can be deliberate to ensure the space for the inverted wingers to move into.

In response to "why can''t they do it more?".. In short when you play teams better than you, you have to go backwards and the distance between lines becomes greater, further neutering your attacking potential should you win the ball.

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