Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Robert Barnes

Last 2yrs

Recommended Posts

The last 2yrs after dec 31 we had 22pts 2011-2012 and 25 pts 2012-2013 we are not that far away from the same form as then,In fact it is poss that by that time this season we could have 29 pts.i don''t think so poss 25 again So my ? Is why is every body so sure we are going to be relegated,when we are on par with the last 2 seasons and both yrs finished 11th and 12th. Just a ? Would like some feed back I personally think we will finish about11th again this season

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Last season we were dull but efficient up to xmas then fell like a stone picking up very few results until the 3 at the end that saved us.

This season we have not looked convincing in any games (even those we have won) and our defence has not generally been to the standard it was last year and our attack toothless (failing to get any of our strikers involved regularly)

There are signs in the last couple of weeks that we are either improving or getting luckier. Hopefully we can turn our luck into improving performances and results and I will be able to agree with you.

We need our play to evolve and improve as much as our results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''d take 17th now. I think, under Hughton, we will always be dull. There''s no getting away from that. It''s one of the bi-products of having him in charge.

Even if we stay up and he gets £50m next summer (which I know won''t happen) we would still be pretty dull I think.

However, I''d be happy if he kept us up this season and we reassessed in the summer whether he and his staff are right to take us forward. I don''t think we will be our long term manager.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YN1901, if Hughton is in charge for next season, that would make it 3 years, and a Prem managers average time in job, isn''t much more than that is it?

What would you consider ''long term''?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I consider long term 5 years or so. When Hughton was appointed there was no obvious burning ambition with him to reach the top, like there was with Paul Lambert, so if things went well for him here and we continued to progress I felt he could be here for many years.

However, I don''t see this happening now. We haven''t been in good form for the whole of 2013. I can see us going foreign with our manager in the next year or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you think that, last season was a consolidation, and this year has shown glimpses of improvement along with other areas that need improving? As in tweaking, as opposed to wholesale changes?

I''m just trying to gauge what Hughton would have to do in your eyes to prove to yourself, that we are on the ''upward'' curve, and you would be more than happy for him to remain in charge for the long term?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YellowNets1901 wrote "When Hughton was appointed there was no obvious burning ambition with him to reach the top, like there was with Paul Lambert",..................................

His burning ambition obviously didn''t relate to Norwich as far as the Premier League was concerned, otherwise he wouldn''t have left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, without being facetious, CC, having some sustained period of good form might be a start ! Like back to back wins, for instance, or going 3 away fixtures without a spanking. There will be those who point to the 10 game unbeaten run of this time last year...but theein lies the problem. It was this time last year.I''m perfectly prepared to accept that the coming 4 weeks could see something akin to that being achievable. All our games over that period are something we could get something from , with the possible exception of Man U on Dec 28. Then and only then will I start talking about upward curves and longer tenures for Hughton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First year back in the Prem we were just so relieved not to be in the drop zone from the start, like we had been in 2005, so 22 points was a good position.

 

Last year we''d reached 25 points at the end of our unbeaten run.

 

This year we have 17 points with 5 games coming up, all extremely winnable.  24 or 25 points after the Palace game on 1 Jan is the target for me, so the same place as last year.

 

It''s true that we have been inconsistent but by the same token we''ve steadily picked up points this season to put us 14th and well in the mid-table pack.  When we''ve had games against the teams in the middle/bottom of the table, we''ve got a decent points return; we''ve just failed to get anything so far from the top teams although those have mostly been away fixtures where we also failed to get anything the year before.

 

For me the target again this year is consolidation.  If we can stay out of the relegation zone from now on I would be more than happy.  If that is managed comfortably, I can''t see the club sacking Hughton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dispute that Lambert''s ambition was to reach the top. Otherwise, why go to Aston Villa? Hardly more income than us and much more debt. It looked like a sideways move. As someone pointed out, he''s got about the same number of points over two seasons as Hughton has got here.

I''d still love to know what was going on behind the scenes when Holt put in the transfer request and Lambert left.I''ve often wondered whether the two are connected.

To be honest, the only way any manager is going to reach the top through Norwich in the short term is by having a decent season out of the blue and getting a contract with one of the top clubs.

If we''re ever going to be approaching becoming a Champion''s League club without selling out to a billionaire who wants to change the colours to pink and rename us the fluffy bunny rabbits then it''s going to be by a slow process of constant building. Our current average players value is £3.2m. We need to be up to an average of at least £4m per player have realistic chances of establishing ourselves consistently in the top ten.

Long-term strategies require long-term outlooks. Hughton''s personality suits that perfectly in my opinion: Quiet, intense, patient, calm, charming and knows his football. Good eye for quality players at a decent price and the persuasiveness to sign them up. Not quite the whole deal tactically yet, but moving in the right direction steadily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@ Stewfil Exactly. That''s what I meant.

I don''t believe Hughton is the man for us long term simply because of his ambition. Or lack of it. I''ve quoted this a few times now, but I''ll happily do it again.

The Friday before our 0-0 draw against Cardiff, Hughton sat with Geoff Shreeves of Sky Sports and gave an interview. In that interview Hughton said after bringing in £30m worth of new players, it was his job to "dampen the expectations of the fans and players with regards to what the club could achieve".

The next day Southampton beat Fulham 3-0 at home to move them 3rd or 4th in the table. Pochettino came out after that game and said "There''s no limit to what these players can achieve".

This perhaps sums up why we have struggled and why they have flourished. Hughton even had the cheek at the AGM to say that Southampton probably won''t maintain those levels of performance. At least they reached those levels of performance, Chris. More than could be said for us.

Coming off the back of a win on Saturday, a good win, I still haven''t changed my opinion. Unlike others, my opinion doesn''t change if we suddenly pick up three points because, as we take from Hughton''s words, there''s clearly a limit to what he feels we can achieve. Ok, we''re not going to win the league, but after spending £30m, could you really blame us for expecting something a little more than another relegation scrap?

With regards to this lack of ambition. Alex Ferguson said in his book: "Some people, when they have a holiday, just want to go to Saltcoats, twenty-five miles along the coast from Glasgow. Some people don’t even want to do that. They’re happy to stay at home or watch the birds and the ducks float by in the park. And some want to go to the moon. ‘It’s all about people’s ambitions.’”

Under Hughton I think we will always be a team fighting relegation. We were two games away from it last season, don''t forget. He can only take us so far. He will NEVER EVER achieve a top half Premier League finish with us. Not a chance in hell. I''m willing to give it until the end of the season, but then I think we need to bring someone in who meets the ambitions of the club. If indeed the club does have ambitions beyond what we currently have here.

I have other issues with Hughton. Subs, Becchio, tactics, interviews, away performances etc, but ambition is the man one and ties in to some of the above I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is a limit to what we can achieve at the moment. That''s a statement of fact. That doesn''t preclude breaking into the top echelons in the long-term nor demonstrate lack of ambition. Otherwise, why get in RvW, Hooper, Redmond, Fer, Olsson et al in the first place if you don''t have any ambition?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LYB, this is the problem with all you Hughton In people. You want it both ways. On the one hand you say it''s all about the long term, and the fact that we stayed up last season. Our worrying run this season is an irrelevance, apparently. We must see it out till the end of the season.But then, by contrast we get quotes from you referring to a one-off date last season when we were occupying 7th place. For one week.So, which is it to be ? Long term future, present form, or a snapshot date last season ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We did. Fair enough. The win against Wigan at home took us to 7th. Don''t think we won again in the league until February/March but I see what you mean. And when we did win again, at home to Everton, Hughton said he was happy with the point that day, but "the players felt they wanted to go for the win".

If we''re bringing up last season, look at the corresponding fixture against Wigan last season. That performance sums up Hughton as a manager, for me. Go for the point against a poor, relegation bound side, go 1-0 down late on, decide you''ve messed up so you put Holt on, lose the game 1-0. Get exactly what you deserve.

I respect other people''s opinions completely. Mine may be different to others but I don''t believe Hughton is a Norwich City manager at all. He won''t be here this time next year, IMO. The last 4 games of the season frighten me quite a bit. If we''re struggling when we hit those games, we are well and truly doomed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
never reach top half last year we were 11th 1 place below and only 2 pts from top half thats pretty close what do you think hughton ambition is to just survive of course not

it is to finish as high in the table as possible no manager wants to just survive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I quite agree that the strategy was grind it out last season and didn''t make for the most thrilling viewing. I don''t believe that''s the strategy this season. If anything, we''ve lost out on draws from trying to go on and win, Chelsea being the biggest illustration of that.

Generally, the teams he''s been putting out have been more geared towards attacking this season. 4-2-3-1 was the staple diet last season, this season it has been predominately 4-1-4-1 with a few outings in 4-4-2. Personally, I think that''s why the defence has been suffering more this season, but he''s clearly more interested in getting attacking play working well than reverting to 4-2-3-1 and shoring up the defence.

Not what I''d expect from an unambitious manager to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11th isn''t top half though, is it Robert? Surely after finishing 11th last season, then spending £30m we can expect a nice 9th/10th place finish? Doesn''t look like it though. Not at a all.

We won''t finish top half. No doubt about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yellow Nets "11th isn''t top half though, is it Robert? Surely after finishing 11th last season, then spending £30m we can expect a nice 9th/10th place finish? Doesn''t look like it though. Not at a all.

We won''t finish top half. No doubt about that."

Top ten finish is definitely the aspiration this season. That said, our current average player value after the spending spree has gone up to £3.2m. The 10th most expensive team is Southampton at £4.2m. As such, it should remain something to hope for, but definitely not to expect. Expectation should be finish between 11th and 17th, invest more in the squad in the summer, go again, invest more, go again and steadily rise up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="YellowNets1901"]11th isn''t top half though, is it Robert? Surely after finishing 11th last season, then spending £30m we can expect a nice 9th/10th place finish? Doesn''t look like it though. Not at a all.

We won''t finish top half. No doubt about that.[/quote]

YN1901, I think you will find that by spending £30m puts us in a place of "not quite standing still" but certainly not "legging it" up the league.

Remember, as a squad, we did not have a PL infrastructure - our backbone was L1 / Championship quality (and I heard that our youth system was kind of decimated by our former manager). In order to get a PL infrastructure, it will take a number of years to build up (or several 100 millions).

Looking at our injuries, and in particular Benno, Snoddy & Pilks - that''s 3 key wide players out - so our options are limited - however CH has started to build that back up that successful PL clubs need - as evidenced by Saturday''s performance.

In conclusion, a quote from Donald Sutherland in Kelly''s Heroes "why don''t you knock it off with those negative waves"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="YellowNets1901"]11th isn''t top half though, is it Robert? Surely after finishing 11th last season, then spending £30m we can expect a nice 9th/10th place finish? Doesn''t look like it though. Not at a all.

We won''t finish top half. No doubt about that.[/quote]I can only assume you are a teenager and have no idea of how football works.  If you are expecting continued success in the Premier League then you are extremely naive, this isn''t a computer game.  Just look at how Fulham''s/West Brom''s/Stoke''s positions have changed year on year - Fulham and Stoke especially have spent big over the last few years and neither have seen dramatic rises up the table.  You have to spend big to stand still in this league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Well, without being facetious, CC, having some sustained period of good form might be a start ! Like back to back wins, for instance, or going 3 away fixtures without a spanking. There will be those who point to the 10 game unbeaten run of this time last year...but theein lies the problem. It was this time last year.I''m perfectly prepared to accept that the coming 4 weeks could see something akin to that being achievable. All our games over that period are something we could get something from , with the possible exception of Man U on Dec 28. Then and only then will I start talking about upward curves and longer tenures for Hughton.[/quote]

 

That''s the problem with you Houghton Out types. You want is both ways. If we go on a ten game unbeaten run you want to discount it when you evaluate Hughton''s performance. And if we get the points in a more scattered fashion you want to see a more sustained period in form. The grass is always greener ain''t it Reg...

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let''s look at the league table. 

 

There are 10 teams between 13 and 19 points with 15 games gone for all (bar 2).  That''s very tightly packed.  We''re right in the middle of that pack on 17 points. 

 

The teams around us are comparable with us in size, but most either have owners putting money in, or have been in the Prem longer than us (or both).  Our player wage bill - the biggest predictor of your league position - has been at the lower end of the range since we''ve been in the Prem.  You only get to know it after the season ends, but I expect it will still be towards the bottom of this group.

 

So basically Hughton is getting the team to over-perform to be right where we are now.  People who don''t think this is good enough are just being unrealistic IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Reggie Strayshun "LYB, this is the problem with all you Hughton In people. You want it both ways. On the one hand you say it''s all about the long term, and the fact that we stayed up last season. Our worrying run this season is an irrelevance, apparently. We must see it out till the end of the season.But then, by contrast we get quotes from you referring to a one-off date last season when we were occupying 7th place. For one week.So, which is it to be ? Long term future, present form, or a snapshot date last season ?"

Sorry, I missed this post for some reason. I think you missed the significance of why I posted it. Yellownets pointed out that Chris Hughton had had ''the cheek'' to suggest that Southampton won''t sustain their position for the whole season. I pointed out the 7th place for us illustrating that we did actually get there, but it didn''t mean we could sustain it. He''s being proved right regarding Southampton. They were third and are now eighth. It is absolutely all about long term success. Going purely by financial value of players they should finish 10th. Of course, the table at the end of the season doesn''t correlate absolutely to financial value of players on the pitch, but there is a strong correlation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, Reggie, when was our worrying run this season? The worst I can see as far as runs are concerned is two instances of back to back defeats. We had back to back defeats against Chelsea and Arsenal, which isn''t exactly worrying, and a couple back to back against Tottenham and Aston Villa. Disappointing for sure, but hardly worrying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="YellowNets1901"]We did. Fair enough. The win against Wigan at home took us to 7th. Don''t think we won again in the league until February/March but I see what you mean. And when we did win again, at home to Everton, Hughton said he was happy with the point that day, but "the players felt they wanted to go for the win".

If we''re bringing up last season, look at the corresponding fixture against Wigan last season. That performance sums up Hughton as a manager, for me. Go for the point against a poor, relegation bound side, go 1-0 down late on, decide you''ve messed up so you put Holt on, lose the game 1-0. Get exactly what you deserve.

I respect other people''s opinions completely. Mine may be different to others but I don''t believe Hughton is a Norwich City manager at all. He won''t be here this time next year, IMO. The last 4 games of the season frighten me quite a bit. If we''re struggling when we hit those games, we are well and truly doomed.[/quote]I''ve been reading a lot of posts which make the same assumption but I fear this may be wishful thinking on your part. Should we survive another season I doubt there is any prospect of Chris Hughton being replaced. Nor should he IMO because he is succeeding in the task that the directors have set him.If the directors had told him to get a top ten place or else then there might be some prospect of him getting the push but this is not the case. If the level of performance fails to keep the supporters happy then this should show through in a reduction in the gates.This hasn''t happened yet and so far seems very unlikely to happen.Every managers job hangs on the results he achieves and if continues to maintain a 1.1 to 1.2 point per game average over a run of games then he will still be manager at the start of 2014/15. That may not be enough for some but those that are unhappy about this always have the option of withdrawing their support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No I agree it is not top half but you are talking never I was pointing out how close we have come to being in the top half it is a reality not never maybe not this year but we will break top half

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don''t even think there''s reason to give up on top ten this year. We''re two points off tenth at the moment and have three winnable games coming up providing the team keeps the work rate up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This season we have not looked convincing in any games

--------------------------------------------------------

I''m sorry, but what absolute BS.

we looked convincing vs everton, chelsea, arsenal, west ham (second half), cardiff, crystal palace, stoke, southampton and to a lesser extent west brom.

we looked capable, at the very least, against villa and were very unlucky against hull as they had all 10 players they had left inside/on the goal line.

we have looked out of our place against man city and spurs, but I wouldn''t say the same against liverpool, where we were actually playing well from midfield upwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="littleyellowbirdie"]Sorry, Reggie, when was our worrying run this season? The worst I can see as far as runs are concerned is two instances of back to back defeats. We had back to back defeats against Chelsea and Arsenal, which isn''t exactly worrying, and a couple back to back against Tottenham and Aston Villa. Disappointing for sure, but hardly worrying.[/quote]Well, I''d say that when we slipped into the bottom 3 it was a bit worrying, YB.  In fact, I was one of the ones urging caution at the time, but several people really got their knickers in a twist about it ! But hey, there will always be key players in the uber positives that twist the facts though, won''t they?Nevertheless, I do not think that back to back wins is an unreasonable goal to have. we''ve not had one for a while, so Sun v Swansea would be a good time to start ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...