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tom cavendish

Hughton's logic regarding Hooper against Liverpool?

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Prior to the game against Liverpool, Hughton probably realised that he wouldn''t get sacked if the team lost to Liverpool but he would be under more pressure should he fail to get a result v WBA.Hughton would have calculated that the team had very little chance of taking any points against Liverpool and that he was struggling for fit strikers (that he rates). Therefore you can understand why Hughton would select Hooper as a token sub and save him for the game against WBA. It would only be worth risking him in the late stages of a game against Liverpool should the scoreline remain close. There is some good logic behind that strategy.However, and this is where I think Hughton lost the plot last night... he then brought on Hooper when the team was losing 3-0. Where was the logic in that? At that stage, it wasn''t worth risking injury to Hooper. Hughton should have given Beccio a chance to get some match fitness rather than risk Hooper.I think Hughton panicked at 0-3 down and realised that if we got thrashed then he might not get a chance to be the manager against WBA so brought on Hooper.That is the only logic I can see which would explain Hughton''s decision to name Hooper as a sub, and then bring him on when the team was losing 3-0.

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I''m not sure there is any logic to his decisions. I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season. The man is stubborn and its costing Norwich City. Play to our strengths rather than trying to combat the oppositions. Particularly when its clear the players are not good enough to carry out the strategy Hughton has.

Why is he so stubborn? What does he see that actually makes him think last nights team selection can actually work? It''s clear he isn''t changing so he has got to go.

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]

I''m not sure there is any logic to his decisions. I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season. The man is stubborn and its costing Norwich City. Play to our strengths rather than trying to combat the oppositions. Particularly when its clear the players are not good enough to carry out the strategy Hughton has.

Why is he so stubborn? What does he see that actually makes him think last nights team selection can actually work? It''s clear he isn''t changing so he has got to go.

[/quote]

 

It''s no more stupid than thinking if we went toe-to-toe with these teams that we''d come off best. Which strengths of ours would you have played to Lincoln?

 

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]

I''m not sure there is any logic to his decisions. I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season. The man is stubborn and its costing Norwich City. Play to our strengths rather than trying to combat the oppositions. Particularly when its clear the players are not good enough to carry out the strategy Hughton has.

Why is he so stubborn? What does he see that actually makes him think last nights team selection can actually work? It''s clear he isn''t changing so he has got to go.

[/quote]

 

Agreed.

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Couldn''t agree more.

 

And I''ll add that his lack of awareness means that he is unable (or perhaps unwilling?) to make alterations when his initial approach goes pear shaped.

 

Hughton OUT................................NOW

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[quote user="Norma Stick"]

Couldn''t agree more.

 

And I''ll add that his lack of awareness means that he is unable (or perhaps unwilling?) to make alterations when his initial approach goes pear shaped.

 

Hughton OUT................................NOW

[/quote]Yes, I think Hughton''s plan was:1. Save Hooper as much as possible for the game against WBA.2. Keep the score down against Liverpool and bring on Hooper towards the end should we be in with a chance of getting any points from the game.But Hughton panicked and lost the plot at 3-0 down and brought Hooper on. By then it was already too late.At 3-0 down away to Liverpool, a shrewd manager would have thought ''it wouldn''t now be worth risking injury to Hooper. It would now be best to completely save him for WBA''. Then use the rest of the match as a good opportunity to get Becchio match fit.

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[quote user="Warren Hill"][quote user="lincoln canary"]

I''m not sure there is any logic to his decisions. I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season. The man is stubborn and its costing Norwich City. Play to our strengths rather than trying to combat the oppositions. Particularly when its clear the players are not good enough to carry out the strategy Hughton has.

Why is he so stubborn? What does he see that actually makes him think last nights team selection can actually work? It''s clear he isn''t changing so he has got to go.

[/quote]

 

It''s no more stupid than thinking if we went toe-to-toe with these teams that we''d come off best. Which strengths of ours would you have played to Lincoln?

 

[/quote]

 

 

Sorry disagree. Whilst I understand the logic, we''ve not tried going toe to toe with theses teams in theory it may be stupid but in reality we don''t know. We''ve tried the other tactic and its failed every time this season. So where''s the logic in constantly implementing a floored strategy which has had next to no past success?

The strength I''d have played to last night would have been to go long and direct with Redmond and Hooper playing off Elmander. Whether we put three, four or five in midfield we simply don''t have the players to compete against sides like Liverpool. So a tactic whereby we try to bypass the midfield would have been beneficial. With this floored strategy that Hughton constantly implements away from home, if it was to work and we remain solid and sock up the pressure, how would we counter attack with zero pace with Hoolahan and Elmander? His tactics are completely flawed.

 

I fail to see how you can justify defending him anymore.

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Hear hear Tom C... it will just fall on deaf ears as if who-ton grabbed a canaries flag and wiped his arse on it some on here lsd,nutty,monty etc would just say "poor chris he had the squits it''s all he could do" same 5hit same blinded fans same (unt in charge

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[quote user="Warren Hill"][quote user="lincoln canary"]

I''m not sure there is any logic to his decisions. I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season. The man is stubborn and its costing Norwich City. Play to our strengths rather than trying to combat the oppositions. Particularly when its clear the players are not good enough to carry out the strategy Hughton has.

Why is he so stubborn? What does he see that actually makes him think last nights team selection can actually work? It''s clear he isn''t changing so he has got to go.

[/quote]

 

It''s no more stupid than thinking if we went toe-to-toe with these teams that we''d come off best. Which strengths of ours would you have played to Lincoln?

 

[/quote]

Teams similar to us are getting results against the teams you seem to think we should bow down too.

Why aren''t we even coming close?

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[quote user="tom cavendish"]Prior to the game against Liverpool, Hughton probably realised that he wouldn''t get sacked if the team lost to Liverpool but he would be under more pressure should he fail to get a result v WBA.Hughton would have calculated that the team had very little chance of taking any points against Liverpool and that he was struggling for fit strikers (that he rates). Therefore you can understand why Hughton would select Hooper as a token sub and save him for the game against WBA. It would only be worth risking him in the late stages of a game against Liverpool should the scoreline remain close. There is some good logic behind that strategy.However, and this is where I think Hughton lost the plot last night... he then brought on Hooper when the team was losing 3-0. Where was the logic in that? At that stage, it wasn''t worth risking injury to Hooper. Hughton should have given Beccio a chance to get some match fitness rather than risk Hooper.I think Hughton panicked at 0-3 down and realised that if we got thrashed then he might not get a chance to be the manager against WBA so brought on Hooper.That is the only logic I can see which would explain Hughton''s decision to name Hooper as a sub, and then bring him on when the team was losing 3-0.[/quote]

if he thought like that he should go anyway. We should have the attitude we can compete in every game.

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Where have I said that we should "bow down" to anyone? Oh no, I haven''t.

 

Why aren''t we coming close to what? Beating Liverpool at Anfield? Because we aren''t good enough. If any of the top 6 play anywhere near their capability, we will get beat. The same goes for any side "similar" to us. The fact that we have taken these tonkings is galling but as I asked Lincoln (with no reply) what strengths of ours would you play to that would change anything?

 

 

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Being slightly fair to Hughton here, i don''t think the fact we set up wit ha defensive midfield is the reason we lost against Liverpool.

The fact was that the players didn''t perform the roles they should have done. We needed to keep Liverpool quiet and certainly not concede the goals we did in the first half. Had we gone in at 0-0 or just 1-0 down, we can then try to express ourselves. The fact the players didn''t perform the job Hughton wanted them too can certainly partially lay at the managers feet - is he trying to get them to play in away they''re uncomfortable with?

I do agree the Hooper sub had absolutely no logic to it whatsoever. If you''re not going to start him, then you''ve made your bed by playing a striker yet to score for us on his own up front. But, if you''re going to bring him on, you''re gonna have to be brave and do it at 2-0 down for it to make any sense.

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[quote user="rowdyman"][quote user="tom cavendish"][/quote]

if he thought like that he should go anyway. We should have the attitude we can compete in every game.[/quote]Of course the club should have the attitude of being able to compete in every game. I am as tired as anyone of watching the style of football and tactics deployed by Hughton. I think the negative mentality in so many matches leads to a loss of belief and confidence.However, Hughton''s job is to keep the club in the Premier League and a number of key players are missing through injury so making it harder to compete.I can therefore understand the logic behind what Hughton was probably trying to do by saving Hooper for WBA.The pressure is now on to achieve a good result v WBA. If Hughton achieves that then he may be able to justify his decision to rest Hooper against Liverpool.However, there was no logic in Hughton bringing on Hooper at 3-0 down v Liverpool. It was daft.

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Hughton couldn''t motivate an alcoholic to booze.

His tactics are 25 years out of date, he doesn''t believe in his own team so we get the according results.

You really have to start to look at the board at why they continue to persist with this spineless, inept, demotivating manager?

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]

Where have I said that we should "bow down" to anyone? Oh no, I haven''t.

 

Why aren''t we coming close to what? Beating Liverpool at Anfield? Because we aren''t good enough. If any of the top 6 play anywhere near their capability, we will get beat. The same goes for any side "similar" to us. The fact that we have taken these tonkings is galling but as I asked Lincoln (with no reply) what strengths of ours would you play to that would change anything?

 

 

[/quote]

 

Try reading with your eyes open. That way you might find my reply.

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[quote user="hogesar"]Being slightly fair to Hughton here, i don''t think the fact we set up wit ha defensive midfield is the reason we lost against Liverpool. The fact was that the players didn''t perform the roles they should have done. We needed to keep Liverpool quiet and certainly not concede the goals we did in the first half. Had we gone in at 0-0 or just 1-0 down, we can then try to express ourselves. The fact the players didn''t perform the job Hughton wanted them too can certainly partially lay at the managers feet - is he trying to get them to play in away they''re uncomfortable with? I do agree the Hooper sub had absolutely no logic to it whatsoever. If you''re not going to start him, then you''ve made your bed by playing a striker yet to score for us on his own up front. But, if you''re going to bring him on, you''re gonna have to be brave and do it at 2-0 down for it to make any sense.[/quote]

 

"The fact the players didn''t perform the job Hughton wanted them too can certainly partially lay at the managers feet - is he trying to get them to play in away they''re uncomfortable with?"

 

Is this the biggest problem Hughton might have? I think you''re spot on here Hogesar. I would add to that, if the players he hs brought in were so for this style of play and his tactics, which clearly don''t work away from home that puts even more pressure on Hughton?

 

I keep saying it, something is not right, last weekend Hughton bowed to fans pressure to a degree and played Wes along with two up top.

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I think the logic for starting Elmander rather than Hooper is pretty simple, for those who want to open their eyes.  Hooper had been anonymous when played as the lone striker away at Arsenal etc.  Elmander offers a lot more to the team generally in holding up the ball and as an outlet from the back, when playing one up front.  So it was a logical move to start with Elmander rather than Hooper.

 

At 3-0 down he brought on a different striker (as well as bringing on Murphy) to try to get something out of the game.  It''s not exactly hard to understand is it ?

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[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="Warren Hill"]

Where have I said that we should "bow down" to anyone? Oh no, I haven''t.

 

Why aren''t we coming close to what? Beating Liverpool at Anfield? Because we aren''t good enough. If any of the top 6 play anywhere near their capability, we will get beat. The same goes for any side "similar" to us. The fact that we have taken these tonkings is galling but as I asked Lincoln (with no reply) what strengths of ours would you play to that would change anything?

 

 

[/quote]

 

Try reading with your eyes open. That way you might find my reply.

[/quote]

 

Apologies Lincoln, I missed that.

 

However, you don''t identify a strength of ours to play to, just suggest that we should have played long. I don''t recall that being a particular strength that we''ve demonstrated. And we have traded with top sides, Arsenal and Chelsea we certainly did. We came out second best, despite not playing badly. Without key players, we don''t have the personnel to go toe-to-toe with them, I just don''t think we''re good enough.

 

As I''ve said, the tonkings are galling, yet we keep winning enough games to keep our head above water. The gap is still 4 points, I''d take that at the end of the season.

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]

I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season.[/quote]

You should really fact check what you say.As much as we may find this tactic boring and negative, it has worked at Stoke, Southampton and Crystal Palace. And so its got us more than half our points this season.Ironically, our most attacking midfield performance was probably Cardiff - which ended nil-nil!

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I think the problem is that Hughton''s motivation and decisions appear to be based solely on doing whatever he feels will keep him in the job a little longer, be it results from must-win games or deflecting fan''s criticism by picking players to appease fans, rather than what is in the best interests of the football club. The negativity that is in his footballing DNA has heaped so much pressure upon him that his life is now just a series of decisions designed to get results in what he sees as games where he must get a result to survive, rather than approaching each and every match with thoughts of trying to win it.

The West Ham match he saw as a must-win match, so he approached it in a more positive manner. He was also getting pressure from the fans to bring back Wes Hoolahan to produce some creativity in the final third, so he did so. Similarly it can be no coincidence that the majority of fans had sympathised with Becchio after his outburst and he was given his first league action of the season.

Last night, almost inexplicably he dropped the striker who looks most likely to score for us. Others have suggested, probably rightly, that Hooper was being rested for the West Brom match in which there will be more pressure for Hughton to get a result than in a match against Liverpool.

And this epitomises the problem.. a manager should be focussed on giving the team the best chance in getting a result in every match, whereas Hughton appears to be focussed on getting the necessary results from particular games in the fixture list that will keep him in a job.

As long as the Board persevere with him, the season will continue to be a series of heavy defeats and dismal performances punctuated by must win matches every few games which he needs to win to save his job.

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[quote user="budgiebird"]I think the problem is that Hughton''s motivation and decisions appear to be based solely on doing whatever he feels will keep him in the job a little longer, be it results from must-win games or deflecting fan''s criticism by picking players to appease fans, rather than what is in the best interests of the football club. The negativity that is in his footballing DNA has heaped so much pressure upon him that his life is now just a series of decisions designed to get results in what he sees as games where he must get a result to survive, rather than approaching each and every match with thoughts of trying to win it.

The West Ham match he saw as a must-win match, so he approached it in a more positive manner. He was also getting pressure from the fans to bring back Wes Hoolahan to produce some creativity in the final third, so he did so. Similarly it can be no coincidence that the majority of fans had sympathised with Becchio after his outburst and he was given his first league action of the season.

Last night, almost inexplicably he dropped the striker who looks most likely to score for us. Others have suggested, probably rightly, that Hooper was being rested for the West Brom match in which there will be more pressure for Hughton to get a result than in a match against Liverpool.

And this epitomises the problem.. a manager should be focussed on giving the team the best chance in getting a result in every match, whereas Hughton appears to be focussed on getting the necessary results from particular games in the fixture list that will keep him in a job.

As long as the Board persevere with him, the season will continue to be a series of heavy defeats and dismal performances punctuated by must win matches every few games which he needs to win to save his job.[/quote]

Very well said. I totally agree.

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It''s always a bit of a hint when someone has budgie in their name that they''re a binner.

 

What will keep Hughton in a job is how well City do over the course of the season (or however long it is until the board decide either to sack him or keep him for the rest of the season).  So his aim must be to get the best results for City that he can.  When you''re playing a game on Wednesday night followed by Saturday, do you need to think about the fact the Saturday game is coming up ?  Well yes, unless you''re daft.

 

You, on the other hand, say he shouldn''t do that - so actually you''re saying you don''t want him to try to get the best results for City ?  Well, I''m not surprised.

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Well Sherlock, you are wrong. Been a Norwich supporter since the early 60''s.

Your post actually reflects what is wrong. It is irrelevant to most genuine City fans as to whether Hughton keeps his job or not. Your thinking (and Hughton''s) is all about winning a certain number of games over a season, which will keep him in a job. Most City fans, however, would prefer to go into every match, giving ourselves the best chance of winning.

And if Hooper is not fit enough to play two games in four days then there is something wrong with our fitness training.

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[quote user="Warren Hill"][quote user="lincoln canary"]

I''m not sure there is any logic to his decisions. I think he still genuinely believes he can set up with a defensive minded midfield and prevent teams from scoring for 90 minutes. Despite the fact its failed on every occasion this season. The man is stubborn and its costing Norwich City. Play to our strengths rather than trying to combat the oppositions. Particularly when its clear the players are not good enough to carry out the strategy Hughton has.

Why is he so stubborn? What does he see that actually makes him think last nights team selection can actually work? It''s clear he isn''t changing so he has got to go.

[/quote]

 

It''s no more stupid than thinking if we went toe-to-toe with these teams that we''d come off best. Which strengths of ours would you have played to Lincoln?

 

[/quote]
So by your reckoning Warren should we not even try? Maybe just forfeit the match and save on the travel expenses in future? Maybe ask to drop back down to the championship so we can go toe-to-toe? Jeez what a supporter you are!!

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[quote user="budgiebird"]Well Sherlock, you are wrong. Been a Norwich supporter since the early 60''s.

Your post actually reflects what is wrong. It is irrelevant to most genuine City fans as to whether Hughton keeps his job or not. Your thinking (and Hughton''s) is all about winning a certain number of games over a season, which will keep him in a job. Most City fans, however, would prefer to go into every match, giving ourselves the best chance of winning.

And if Hooper is not fit enough to play two games in four days then there is something wrong with our fitness training.[/quote]
Here here! Well said. Your previous post should be used as a template for exactly what is wrong with the management mentality right now. It''s detailed, and I''d love to see what kind of response CH or McNally could give to that great bit of writing you did, to assure us we''d be incorrect thinking this way right now.

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[quote user="budgiebird"]Well Sherlock, you are wrong. Been a Norwich supporter since the early 60''s.

Your post actually reflects what is wrong. It is irrelevant to most genuine City fans as to whether Hughton keeps his job or not. Your thinking (and Hughton''s) is all about winning a certain number of games over a season, which will keep him in a job. Most City fans, however, would prefer to go into every match, giving ourselves the best chance of winning.

And if Hooper is not fit enough to play two games in four days then there is something wrong with our fitness training.[/quote]
Here here! Well said. Your previous post should be used as a template for exactly what is wrong with the management mentality right now. It''s detailed, and I''d love to see what kind of response CH or McNally could give to that great bit of writing you did, to assure us we''d be incorrect thinking this way right now.

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