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Indy

The system is right, the players are right so what is the issue?

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Nutty asked a good queston on another thread and I have to say the following:

 

I want Hughton to stay and do well.

 

I for one think 1 up top is the best way forward.

 

I do think we lack speed on the brake which other teams playing this appear to have, so I''m not sure Pilkington and Snooders are the right players on the attacking wings, maybe we need more pace.

 

I also think we lack the fitness we had under Lambert.

 

I believe with Fer Tettey & Howson we control the midfield in parts over the last three games. I think the at the back we have solid players with great altrnatives, yet we look weak when we get into the last third.

 

So for me IMO it has to be the coaching, motivation and fitness, but not sure what canbe done other than Hughton bites the bullet and changes coaching.

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Yes but what is the issue Indy? The last 3 performances have been great. If wse put in a Hull like performance on Saturday the there certainly will be an issue. But for now to my mind Hull was the blip not Stoke, Chelsea and Arsenal. What is it we need to improve from those games?

 

 

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Scoring goals I would say!

 

As I said above, the players re right, the system is right so it must be lack of understadnig and coaching!

 

It''s no good performing well for 60 minutes and not scoring and letting in 4 goals!

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Which is precisely why the more reasonable of us, as opposed to the people of the Wiz persuasion, are advocating a decent length of time (eg 5 more games) for CH to get both the tactics , performances,AND the results right, Nigel.

I know it''s a cliché, but football IS a results driven business.

I really cannot see why anyone would complain , if by the one-third of the season mark, and results have NOT improved, then changes at the top should be made.

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Your gripe is not with me Reggie. You are only repeating what I have been saying. Your gripe is with Indy who seems to be flitting between last season and this like the old lady in a weather house....

 

 

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Clearly the performances are steadily getting better, despite the last two results against two of the best sides in Europe, which indicates to me that the players are definately understanding the coaching, because they are getting better. What I want to pick up on, is something that has been mentioned a few times by others, and its something that has a major impact on performance, that is fitness and the comment that the side looked fitter under PL compared to CH. I personally have not noticed this at all to be honest, but am interested to know if anyone can provide any support statistics to this opinion/observation? I have certainly seen some players throughout the league huffing and puffing before others and looking cream crackered before others, but actually felt we seemed to be one of the fittest sides.  

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Your gripe is not with me Reggie. You are only repeating what I have been saying. Your gripe is with Indy who seems to be flitting between last season and this like the old lady in a weather house....

 

 

[/quote]

 

What are you on about Nutty? How is this flitting between last season? We have under performed this season given that you said yourself that Hughton had made better signings than the other manager in this league!

 

So if everything is so good how is it we sit in the bottom 3 and still have 2 goals form our 15 million strik force.?

 

As for the fitness, we have conceded a lot of goals in the last 25 minutes, could it be player fitness or tactics? but from what i see I think we were fitter under Lambert.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Which is precisely why the more reasonable of us, as opposed to the people of the Wiz persuasion, are advocating a decent length of time (eg 5 more games) for CH to get both the tactics , performances,AND the results right, Nigel.

I know it''s a cliché, but football IS a results driven business.

I really cannot see why anyone would complain , if by the one-third of the season mark, and results have NOT improved, then changes at the top should be made.[/quote][|-)]Get over it, the board are not going to sack the manager. Look at Martinez during his time at Wigan, he had a set style of play that he stuck to, the board backed him even through the long win less runs. I expect that McNally is going to do similar with Chris Hughton, he''s his man and he''s goning to stick with him. So your opinion is pretty much of the same value as the Zimbabwe Dollar.

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[quote user="Indy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Your gripe is not with me Reggie. You are only repeating what I have been saying. Your gripe is with Indy who seems to be flitting between last season and this like the old lady in a weather house....

 

 

[/quote]

 

What are you on about Nutty? How is this flitting between last season? We have under performed this season given that you said yourself that Hughton had made better signings than the other manager in this league!

 

So if everything is so good how is it we sit in the bottom 3 and still have 2 goals form our 15 million strik force.?

 

As for the fitness, we have conceded a lot of goals in the last 25 minutes, could it be player fitness or tactics? but from what i see I think we were fitter under Lambert.

[/quote]

 

Where did I say that Indy? I said in the last two seasons Lambert and Hughton had performed well considering their budgets. Which they did. Because they both finished above teams with far bigger budgets. I also said that until proved otherwise Hull was the blip not Stoke, Arsenal and Chelsea. You''re too eager buddy. To keen to hold the inquest. If Cardiff is another Hull then I wouldn''t be on your case at all but if it''s a continuation or improvement of current form then I don''t see what these issues are that you keep referring to.

 

 

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Well thanks for that civil and well thought out little reposte, Hyena. Which charm school was it you attended ?

We shall see. Of course, just to be clear on this, I hope that results pick up , and the veracity of either your or my opinion will never have to be tested.

Presumably, there were people like you on the Southampton equivalent of Pink Un this time last year who were fully of the opinion that Adkins should not be replaced.

''Nuff said, really.

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We need a proper striker - end of!Hopefully Wolfie or Hooper will click into scoring mode pdq or we have to go into the market again.

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"The system is right, the players are right so what is the issue?"

Impatience is the issue.  It may be a cliche, but Rome wasn''t built in a day.   We are still one win from mid table, not down and outs - and we are seeing improvements. 

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I see what you are saying, Lakey,but surely, the problem is, at what stage, precisely, does patience become negligence or inaction ?

I''m still a little troubled by this "we are seeing improvements" phrase that is trotted out. Frankly, the only improvement I''m interested in would see us scoring goals and thus winning football matches.

Let''s hope that starts on Sat, and continues into November.....

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[quote user="Orford65"]We need a proper striker - end of!

[/quote]

Please define "proper striker". We don''t have one of those?

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The system isn''t right. We are STILL getting zero support to the striker and still creating sweet FA for the striker.

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We started the season fairly frugally in conceding goals, although shipped 7 in 2 games lately. I think that the defence does lack pace - certainly in quickness to block or tackle. Arsenal and Chelsea are very quick on the break, and I hope that we don''t meet too many teams with their pace.

 

Our problems in the last third I think come from three factors:

  • Our attacks are often down the wings, but slow because of Snodgrass and a not yet fit Pilks, and because they encounter quick backs they often cut inside and cross with their inside foot, and the ball arrives over the shoulder from behind to the advancing strikers, and is easier for defenders to deal with.
  • Crosses at shoulder height are little use, unless they are  well hit to dip at the end. They wont reach the striker and they are hard to out-jump  (much) bigger defenders.
  • Both our main strikers need balls slid through and past defenders into space, so the strikers can outpace the slowly turning defenders and run on to the ball. Significantly the final goal in the Cup that won the match for us was from a sublime pass from Leroy. We haven''t bee able to repeat this since

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We started the season fairly frugally in conceding goals, although shipped 7 in 2 games lately. I think that the defence does lack pace - certainly in quickness to block or tackle. Arsenal and Chelsea are very quick on the break, and I hope that we don''t meet too many teams with their pace.

 

Our problems in the last third I think come from three factors:

  • Our attacks are often down the wings, but slow because of Snodgrass and a not yet fit Pilks, and because they encounter quick backs they often cut inside and cross with their inside foot, and the ball arrives over the shoulder from behind to the advancing strikers, and is easier for defenders to deal with.

  • Crosses at shoulder height are little use, unless they are  well hit to dip at the end. They wont reach the striker and they are hard to out-jump  (much) bigger defenders.

  • Both our main strikers need balls slid through and past defenders into space, so the strikers can outpace the slowly turning defenders and run on to the ball. Significantly the final goal in the Cup that won the match for us was from a sublime pass from Leroy. We haven''t bee able to repeat this since

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[quote user="Indy"]

Nutty asked a good queston on another thread and I have to say the following:

 

I want Hughton to stay and do well.

 

I for one think 1 up top is the best way forward.

 

I do think we lack speed on the brake which other teams playing this appear to have, so I''m not sure Pilkington and Snooders are the right players on the attacking wings, maybe we need more pace.

 

I also think we lack the fitness we had under Lambert.

 

I believe with Fer Tettey & Howson we control the midfield in parts over the last three games. I think the at the back we have solid players with great altrnatives, yet we look weak when we get into the last third.

 

So for me IMO it has to be the coaching, motivation and fitness, but not sure what canbe done other than Hughton bites the bullet and changes coaching.

[/quote]

 

I think you''ve hit the nail on the head. The speed is a massive issue. Without Redmond we have none and this allows the opponents defence to push up with no danger of getting caught out behind on the counter. In Pilkington and Snodgrass we have 2 of the slowest wingers in the league. If their delivery is poor, which it mostly has, then they''re ineffective. The fitness is also not as good as it was. Remember seeing pictures of pre season bike rides. We do sit off opponents way too much and the tracking back when not in possession is not good enough. Squad-wise it''s pretty strong and I think we''re a couple of players short of having an excellent team.

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[quote user="lake district canary"] "The system is right, the players are right so what is the issue?"

Impatience is the issue.  It may be a cliche, but Rome wasn''t built in a day.   We are still one win from mid table, not down and outs - and we are seeing improvements. 

[/quote]

The most rational thing I have seen posted on this message board in a while. Are you sure you''re in the right place LDC?

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Pace on the break and not pressing high enough up the pitch.

When we win the ball it''s often in our own half and we still have a lot to do.

Win the ball higher and you have more of a chance to test the opposition.

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Did the system work against Stoke? Yes

Ok so it''s not been good against Chelsea (CL winners 2012), or Arsenal (who lost to Dortmund runners up this year).

8 games in, and we played ok against the teams stated above.

Can everyone just calm the f___down!!

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Well thanks for that civil and well thought out little reposte, Hyena. Which charm school was it you attended ?

We shall see. Of course, just to be clear on this, I hope that results pick up , and the veracity of either your or my opinion will never have to be tested.

Presumably, there were people like you on the Southampton equivalent of Pink Un this time last year who were fully of the opinion that Adkins should not be replaced.

''Nuff said, really.[/quote]Ahh but the difference between us and Southampton is that they have a trigger happy, mercenary, Italian banker at the helm and we have a CEO who is not prone to making rash unthoughtful decisions just because a couple of results have not gone our way. McNally stuck with Hughton last season when many, including myself, were asking for a change. The club has then backed the manger with the largest transfer budget in the clubs history, which has led to signs of improvement on the pitch. It now appears that the management team have got the new players integrated into the squad and they now look like they are gelling as teammates who are willingly playing for each other (which was my major concern a couple of months ago). So which part of this leads you to believe that Hughton is failing in the remit he has been given for this season?If DM does bow to the demands of the many armchair supporters who know better than he does(such as your goodself) and fires Chris Hughton because we are not yet challenging for the title, I will of course eat humble pie and seek your forgiveness for the curtness of my response to your repetitive, negative droning on about how anyone else in the world of football could do a better job than the current incumbent manager.How''s that for a level-headed, balanced and genial retort?

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Well, Hyena, that would be fine and dandy, if, in any stage of my "droning", I''d demanded CH''s immediate dismissal and replacement with these "wunderkinder" you speak of.

But, unfortuntely for you, I haven''t . What I have said is that at some stage, someone has to say enough is enough, and a decision must be taken. You''ve obviously missed that part of my initial response to you, but, just for completeness''s sake, I''ll reiterate it.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Well, Hyena, that would be fine and dandy, if, in any stage of my "droning", I''d demanded CH''s immediate dismissal and replacement with these "wunderkinder" you speak of.

But, unfortuntely for you, I haven''t . What I have said is that at some stage, someone has to say enough is enough, and a decision must be taken. You''ve obviously missed that part of my initial response to you, but, just for completeness''s sake, I''ll reiterate it.[/quote][|-)]

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The worry is if we stick with Hughton and he fails to deliver the results against the lesser sides that everyone thinks we will roll over ,then the new man when he comes in is going to have to pick up points from less expected sources. Playing well against the better sides does not lead automatically to 3 points against the likes of Cardiff and Palace , my opinion is lose Saturday and Hughton will have one foot out of the door , you just cannot afford to get cut adrift in this league .

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Reggie Strayshun wrote the following post at 2013-10-23 11:30 PM:

Couldn''t have put it better myself Canary 1. The difficulty is that the "lets have Hughton at all costs" people , such as Nige and Hyena, just don''t get thet simple fact.

Here here ! Well spoken RS.

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[quote user="City 2nd"]Reggie Strayshun wrote the following post at 2013-10-23 11:30 PM:

Couldn''t have put it better myself Canary 1. The difficulty is that the "lets have Hughton at all costs" people , such as Nige and Hyena, just don''t get thet simple fact.

Here here ! Well spoken RS.[/quote]

 

It''s a funny old game but even the most blinkered person surely wouldn''t want to keep Hughton or get rid oh Hughton at all costs. I certainly haven''t said that so to suggest I did is dishonest. Which doesn''t surprise me tbh and neither does the "well said" comment from a poster who showed himself up as dishonest a few days ago.

 

There is one guy on here, CUSDP who of course is entitled to his opinion, who stated he didn''t want Hughton in the first place and has wanted him out since the first day of last season. Now I admire him for his honesty in saying that but that is a real example of someone who wants him out at all costs. Isn''t it? I don''t think any poster has ever gone anywhere near that far in defence of Hughton.

 

 

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The issue for me is not putting the ball in early. Perhaps because of wingers who naturally cut inside, perhaps because of confidence but whatever the reason our wide players have to start firing it in early and then we''ll see the best from our strikers.

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[quote user="The Frisbee Hyena"]

If DM does bow to the demands of the many armchair supporters who know better than he does(such as your goodself) and fires Chris Hughton because we are not yet challenging for the title, I will of course eat humble pie and seek your forgiveness for the curtness of my response to your repetitive, negative droning on about how anyone else in the world of football could do a better job than the current incumbent manager.How''s that for a level-headed, balanced and genial retort?

[/quote]

 

Another scenario is that the seven directors (not just McNally) all ignore what some anti-Hughton fans are saying but decide independently, and rationally, based on inside knowledge, that the manager isn''t up to the job of at the least keeping NCFC in the Premier League and certainly not of improving on last season''s final position.

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