Racism

[TIL 1010 4,722]

[quote user="lake district canary"]


There are some  fans of our club who have been  prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich.  He doesn''t fit their image - the way he talks, the way he looks - after all that is what image is.    Could it be racism?  


Surman used to get flack because of the way he "looked",  Wilbraham got stick at first because of the way he "looked".    We all have images in our head of what people we like the look of and the way they act.   Wilbraham won people over.  Surman always was a target too.  But it boils down to abuse.   


But abuse and racism are closely linked.    



[/quote]

I got this far and decided I had read enough. Hughton and the way he talks,the way he looks and then Surman and Wilbraham got stick for the way they looked ????????

Jeezuus whatever goes on in your head LDC ?

[im spartacus canary 0]

the only time i have thought about hughton being a black manager is when there is something in the news about back managers or supposed lack of them and it gets highlighted. And then i think oh yeah i suppose he is a black manager and then it slips my mind again til the next time it''s bought up by the media... what i am saying is i never  really give it a thought until it gets pointed out by someone with a racial axe to grind and i am sure that is the same with most people ...

[nutty nigel 7,509]

I''m sure you''re right Sparto. If it''s a big deal for some then you have to wonder why...

 

 

[morty 0]

When and where did Surman get flak exactly?

Only flak he got, as far as I''m aware, was for not being quite good enough. He could be lime green with pink spots and that would still be the case.

[im spartacus canary 0]

Surman was a victim of lightweightism but thats about it [:D]

[dpit 1]

Musing about racist hidden agendas without any tangible evidence of those hidden agendas is disingenuous at best.

[Katie Borkins 1]

Houghton''s not that black anyway, is he? If you had one of them colour scales then reckon he''d be closer to Simon Lappin than Alex Tetey or Basson. That''s a complete non-issue.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

[quote user="morty"]

When and where did Surman get flak exactly?

[/quote]

 

Yeah, I was wondering that.

 

Mrs Brownstone certainly didn''t think there was anything wrong with the way he looked.

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

This board is for people to air their views.  Not all posts/threads have to be  an "accusation then back it up".    My view - based on months of looking on here and seeing mis-leading, innacurate, over the top criticism of Hughton - is that there are some on here who can''t relate to Hughton because of the way he talks, what he says, the way he is trying to build a team, his whole philosophy of football.   Some plainly can''t relate to him or  his football.  For some out there - and there may not be many, I grant you - this will include his ethnic background - which again is something they cannot relate to.  

People who talk about over-sensitivity are just avoiding the issue.  Racism exists. Get used to it.   Norfolk people are not perfect - and yes I include myself in that (Norfolk and imperfect) - and there will still be people out there with racist views.  Maybe it is disingenuous to talk about this subject without any  "evidence", but to think there is no racism amongst the fans at Carrow Rd is just denial.  I hope it never rears its head overtly at our club ever again - and I hope that those that still harbour racist thoughts learn to accept all people whatever their background. 

Ok, it is obvious that no-one is going to come on and admit that race is one of the reasons they don''t like Hughton as the manager.    But if you think I shouldn''t be saying this and you would rather pretend that race isn''t an issue to some people out there, then to my mind that is worse than me coming on here here and stating what to me is obvious - that  racism is there in society still - in Norfolk hopefully less than elsewhere, but there nevertheless.  

You want evidence??   There is no overt evidence so its personal -  just ask yourselves the question and be honest with yourselves about the answer. 

[*** 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]This board is for people to air their views.  Not all posts/threads have to be  an "accusation then back it up".    My view - based on months of looking on here and seeing mis-leading, innacurate, over the top criticism of Hughton - is that there are some on here who can''t relate to Hughton because of the way he talks, what he says, the way he is trying to build a team, his whole philosophy of football.   Some plainly can''t relate to him or  his football.  For some out there - and there may not be many, I grant you - this will include his ethnic background - which again is something they cannot relate to.  


People who talk about over-sensitivity are just avoiding the issue.  Racism exists. Get used to it.   Norfolk people are not perfect - and yes I include myself in that (Norfolk and imperfect) - and there will still be people out there with racist views.  Maybe it is disingenuous to talk about this subject without any  "evidence", but to think there is no racism amongst the fans at Carrow Rd is just denial.  I hope it never rears its head overtly at our club ever again - and I hope that those that still harbour racist thoughts learn to accept all people whatever their background. 


Ok, it is obvious that no-one is going to come on and admit that race is one of the reasons they don''t like Hughton as the manager.    But if you think I shouldn''t be saying this and you would rather pretend that race isn''t an issue to some people out there, then to my mind that is worse than me coming on here here and stating what to me is obvious - that  racism is there in society still - in Norfolk hopefully less than elsewhere, but there nevertheless.  


You want evidence??   There is no overt evidence so its personal -  just ask yourselves the question and be honest with yourselves about the answer. 



[/quote]

 

What wrong inside your head LDC?

 

We want Hughton out because in our opinion he''s a useless timid manager.

 

The only one fueling this racist cr*p is you.

[morty 0]

So when exactly did Surman get "flak" based on his race?

Or is this just made up?

I like to think I have my finger on the pulse of most current and recent Norwich City issues, and I can''t for the life of me remember this happening.

[Waveney Canary 0]

[quote user="morty"]So when exactly did Surman get "flak" based on his race?

Or is this just made up?

I like to think I have my finger on the pulse of most current and recent Norwich City issues, and I can''t for the life of me remember this happening.[/quote]

To talk sense about the club you have to be at the ground regularly and in the crowds pre and post games to get a feeling for what is happening LDC clearly is never near the place and just makes up this nonsense as a result

[*** 0]

Further to LDC''s stupid logic, a percentage of Hughton Outers must want only white players at our club.

 

LDC.............you''ve finally lost it son![:S]

[Monty13 2,229]

I''m not even a poster who wants Hughton out, but you have really angered me with this, if you had a point I''m lost now as to what it is? as seemingly from your last post its that there may be some racist Norwich supporters, no f*cking sh*t sherlock, have you seen the news?

But your op was thoughtless and deliberately antagonistic, go read it again:

"Abuse Hughton because........?

We are doing badly? No we are improving.

We finished low in the table last season? No.

We haven''t got better players in? No - Redmond - no more needs to be said.

Not doing well this season? Third from bottom, but one win off mid table.

I can''t fathom it - unless some of those that are so vociferous in wanting him out have an agenda that is something that society doesn''t accept any more. Racism.

I''m not accusing anyone"

So you may have put the word "some" in there but you were basically saying there is no reason not to like Hughton, so if your harboring any negative thoughts its racism.

But its ok because your not accusing anyone, your just implying it.

"Not all posts/threads have to be an "accusation then back it up""

Pretty sure when you make accusations in any social situation you''re usually expected to back it up, accusation and opinion are not the same thing.

How do you explain the lack of unwarranted criticism of our black players? Can you provide some evidence of some of that? Or maybe Norfolk people are selectively racist? Why does everyone seem to have taken a shine to Redmond?

Or you know, maybe you could share some of your dossier of evidence on "fans of our club who have been prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich"?

[dpit 1]

1. Racism exists

2. Some numbskulls won''t like Hughton becuase of his dual heritage

3. Their arguments are not worth considering

4. I don''t agree with Hughton outers but I am happy to debate with them on reasonable grounds

5. Is LDC really sure his intention in starting this thread was not to damn all Hughton-outers by faint association with racism?

6. If not, then presumably his intention was to tell us that some people are racist. If so, he should think twice before starting a thread to describe a truism, as such actions make it easy for people to misinterpret his intention.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Lakey''s post got me thinking. It''s unrealistic to think that of all the people who follow the club world wide none of them dislike Hughton for racist reasons. Law of averages say some will. Probably without even realising it themselves. But now to widen the picture what about homophobia? I wonder if there could be fans who dislike Stephen Fry because he''s gay. Law of averages would suggest we have some of those too. And what about gynephobia? Could there be fans who have an irrational dislike of Delia? Who perhaps think that when things are going well it''s nothing to do with her and when things are going badly it''s all her fault?

 

I wonder if there''s any fans with the full set....

 

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Monty13"]I''m not even a poster who wants Hughton out, but you have really angered me with this, if you had a point I''m lost now as to what it is? as seemingly from your last post its that there may be some racist Norwich supporters, no f*cking sh*t sherlock, have you seen the news?

But your op was thoughtless and deliberately antagonistic. 

So you may have put the word "some" in there but you were basically saying there is no reason not to like Hughton, so if your harboring any negative thoughts its racism.

But its ok because your not accusing anyone, your just implying it.

"Not all posts/threads have to be an "accusation then back it up""

Pretty sure when you make accusations in any social situation you''re usually expected to back it up, accusation and opinion are not the same thing.

How do you explain the lack of unwarranted criticism of our black players? Can you provide some evidence of some of that? Or maybe Norfolk people are selectively racist? Why does everyone seem to have taken a shine to Redmond?

Or you know, maybe you could share some of your dossier of evidence on "fans of our club who have been prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich"?[/quote]

You''re wrong and misunderstand me.   Criticism of any football manager is fine as long as the motives are footballing. 

The problem with social media is that the sh*t stirring gets fueled by people who have different agendas, so that legitimate criticism gets hijacked and pushed beyond what is reasonable.    In the case of racism, people in the public eye who are potential targets of  racism, often attract out of proportion derogatory comments of a non-racist kind, because that is the only way to undermine them, due to overt racism being illegal.  

The criticism of Hughton has been so over the top it has made me question whether all of it is football based.   I am sure most of it is, but I have seen people on here say CH is "not right" for Norwich.   Now is that footballing criticism or personal criticism?

[Monty13 2,229]

"You''re wrong and misunderstand me." Could you just clarify on what points, because I think I''m right and I have understood what you wrote perfectly.

"Criticism of any football manager is fine as long as the motives are footballing." Agreed, now who''s motives aren''t?

"The criticism of Hughton has been so over the top it has made me question whether all of it is football based. I am sure most of it is, but I have seen people on here say CH is "not right" for Norwich."

Put forward examples then, I''ve not seen a single bit of criticism that couldn''t be attested to the way CH runs the Football side of this club, if you have then point it out. If its only "some" people it shouldn''t be hard.

Dpit is totally right "If not, then presumably his intention was to tell us that some people are racist. If so, he should think twice before starting a thread to describe a truism, as such actions make it easy for people to misinterpret his intention."

I like Hughton and want him to succeed but I can understand why a lot of supporters don''t anymore and want a change. I''m unsure why you cant? I have seen nothing to suggest that the reason for their opinion is due to the colour of his skin.

I''ll say it again, your op suggested that anyone harboring doubts about Hughton may be a racist. That is extremely poor taste, defend him on the football stakes, unless you can come up with compelling evidence of your wild accusations.

[Dubai Mark 0]

LDC, are you now regretting posting this subject in the first place?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Dubai Mark"]LDC, are you now regretting posting this subject in the first place?[/quote]

Yes,but it shows how easy it is for people to get the wrong end of the stick.    I am sure that the vast majority of fans'' criticism is based on football, but I too have heard racist comments at CR over the years, mercifully little recently.   I was at the Everton match where I heard some comments of poor taste  shouted out about Redmond''s hairstyle.  Not racist maybe, but his hairstyle soon changed after that..............

[snake-eyes 13]

LDC

 

You have accused others of possibly having a different agenda without any evidence whatsoever.  What is yours?

 

This is the only reason I can see for you writing what can easily be read and perceived as a targeted and deliberately antagonistic post.  In fact I found it insulting and your obtuse insinuations of racist connotations with regards to the criticisms of Chris Hughton, on this board, is down right wrong!

 

I nearly reported the post yesterday when I read it, but calmed down and waited until I replied today. Instead of reporting it I wanted to give you the opportunity to apologise and retract.

 

Whatever you intended, it is clear myself and others on here have not taken too kindly to what you have said.  With all due respect I believe you have crossed the line.

 

I am however confused why you chose to post something so clearly antagonistic without forethought to what you were actually saying, or did you want to get a rise from certain posters on here?

 

Well congratulations you got a rise out of me![:@]

 

Snake

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Dubai Mark"]LDC, are you now regretting posting this subject in the first place?[/quote]


Yes,but it shows how easy it is for people to get the wrong end of the stick.    I am sure that the vast majority of fans'' criticism is based on football, but I too have heard racist comments at CR over the years, mercifully little recently.   I was at the Everton match where I heard some comments of poor taste  shouted out about Redmond''s hairstyle.  Not racist maybe, but his hairstyle soon changed after that..............




[/quote]

 

I would suggest comments like that harbor more thought bordering on racism than anything I have read from posters offering criticism of Chris Hughton for what are clearly, to fair -minded people, for football reasons.

Monty was absolutely correct in his reaction to Lakey and, you will notice there is no response from LDC when Monty asked for examples. LDC''s history follows a similar pattern from the outset of his arrival on this forum when his input was "to counter the negativity towards the club."

He accuses no one but slurs everyone in the process, but gets away with it because he cannot be accused of "accusing another poster."

 

 

 

[Dubai Mark 0]

Now I am finding some of the reaction and criticism to the OP and this subject stunningly over the top and in some instances particularly over sensitive. What is happening on this board, why such a reaction, it''s almost like a different world to reality is being painted or, do I need to take some different medication or something and its me on a different planet? (no need to answer that). I am still trying to work out why anybody would report this subject thread and ask for its removal?     

[snake-eyes 13]

I suggest Mark, you read the post again!

 

The overt suggestion that the supposed OTT criticism of Chris Hughton by posters on here is based on racism and not football.

 

Clearly because you don''t feel there is an issue here because you are firmly in the Pro Hughton camp and thus does not apply to you.  You are by definition ''Not Associated'' to the accusation.  However, to those of us on here who have posted our doubts and critisms are, in the OPs mind, racist.

 

That is unacceptable.  Would you like me by, general association, to accuse you of being something you are not, just because you hold a different opinion?

 

You may not see a reason for the reaction, but then it does not concern you are you were not targeted.

 

The words used by the OP were of very poor judgement and taste.  If they were trying to make an observation then it was poorly thought out and could have been made without the inferences to other posters on this board!

 

Snake

 

 

 

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="snake-eyes"]

I suggest Mark, you read the post again!

The overt suggestion that the supposed OTT criticism of Chris Hughton by posters on here is based on racism and not football.  Clearly because you don''t feel there is an issue here because you are firmly in the Pro Hughton camp and thus does not apply to you.  You are by definition ''Not Associated'' to the accusation.  However, to those of us on here who have posted our doubts and critisms are, in the OPs mind, racist.

That is unacceptable.  Would you like me by, general association, to accuse you of being something you are not, just because you hold a different opinion?

 You may not see a reason for the reaction, but then it does not concern you are you were not targeted.

 The words used by the OP were of very poor judgement and taste.  If they were trying to make an observation then it was poorly thought out and could have been made without the inferences to other posters on this board!

 Snake

[/quote]

I sometimes wonder if we all speak the same language.   The comments I have made are not directed at anyone who criticises Hughton.  They are addressed at anyone who jumps on the anti-Hughton bandwagon for other reasons - and with an agenda that can''t be seen to be  racist, because that is illegal.  I agree it is an impossible thread though, as any one who jumps out of the woodwork and says they are racist would be pounced upon.   I can''t put my finger on it, but it crossed my mind when Hughton was announced as Norwich manager that it would upset a few people on a race level. Like it or not, racists exist everywhere.   Whether they ever come out and admit it is another question, but as with all subversive elements in other walks of life, they try to find other ways of undermining their targets.    I don''t think its a huge problem, just a sad reflection of something that I know exists and we should all be wary of.  

 

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="snake-eyes"]

I suggest Mark, you read the post again!

The overt suggestion that the supposed OTT criticism of Chris Hughton by posters on here is based on racism and not football.  Clearly because you don''t feel there is an issue here because you are firmly in the Pro Hughton camp and thus does not apply to you.  You are by definition ''Not Associated'' to the accusation.  However, to those of us on here who have posted our doubts and critisms are, in the OPs mind, racist.

That is unacceptable.  Would you like me by, general association, to accuse you of being something you are not, just because you hold a different opinion?

 You may not see a reason for the reaction, but then it does not concern you are you were not targeted.

 The words used by the OP were of very poor judgement and taste.  If they were trying to make an observation then it was poorly thought out and could have been made without the inferences to other posters on this board!

 Snake

[/quote]


I sometimes wonder if we all speak the same language.   The comments I have made are not directed at anyone who criticises Hughton.  They are addressed at anyone who jumps on the anti-Hughton bandwagon for other reasons - and with an agenda that can''t be seen to be  racist, because that is illegal.  I agree it is an impossible thread though, as any one who jumps out of the woodwork and says they are racist would be pounced upon.   I can''t put my finger on it, but it crossed my mind when Hughton was announced as Norwich manager that it would upset a few people on a race level. Like it or not, racists exist everywhere.   Whether they ever come out and admit it is another question, but as with all subversive elements in other walks of life, they try to find other ways of undermining their targets.    I don''t think its a huge problem, just a sad reflection of something that I know exists and we should all be wary of.  


 



[/quote]

 

As Monty asked you Lakey ( which you failed to respond to ), who are these posters. Can you give examples.? I''ll give you an example on what you posted previously. You said, "where I heard some comments of poor taste  shouted out about Redmond''s hairstyle.  Not racist maybe, but his hairstyle soon changed after that.............."

 

Lots of young footballers receive criticism and many change their hairstyles. Yet you seem to influenced to put the two together and comment based upon the colour of a mans skin, where most of us would not. Why is that, I wonder?

[snake-eyes 13]

Sometimes we need to review the language we use LDC.

 

You have tried to laugh off how easily people get the wrong end of the stick, but this only happens due to poor use of language and explaination.

 

That is not the fault of the interpreter but the communicator.  Where spelling mistakes happen is less of a problem in translation, using the wrong word or words can cause deep offense even if not intended.  In business I have to be very careful in communication.  Whether it is speaking to a member of my staff or anyone senior to me.  I have fallen foul of this before and it has landed me in trouble.  Yet we learn and adjust accordingly.

 

The one thing it has taught me is to think very carefully about what I say and post and how others might receive it.  I have failed in the past to consider what I have said/posted and on reflection rightly had my post reported and removed.  A lesson learnt methinks.

 

You may not have intended such a response, but unfortunately the post came across as a veiled accusation. As I said Racism is a very emotive subject and agreed it is one that should be openly discussed, albeit very delicately!

 

Snake[:)]

[TIL 1010 4,722]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

 Some plainly can''t relate to him or  his football.  For some out there - and there may not be many, I grant you - this will include his ethnic background - which again is something they cannot relate to.   

[/quote]

I think there are more people that cannot relate to you LDC than Hughton. You really have dug yourself a rather large hole with this thread but hey ho keep digging as I am sure you will.

[Buh 0]

If theres one thin'' Narfuk foolk Can''t be accoosed ov it''s being nasty, ''hintolerant or ''hafrayed ov changed buh!

[Koreacanary 0]

It''s because he plays negative football too often, when you have an attacking manager you forgive him a bit of bad form but not when you play defensive football.

Chris Hughton has had a bad run for a long time, we were very flattered by finishing 11th last season, he had a good run of around 10 games this time last year and since then we''ve struggled for form.

He always seems to get points when we really need them but he won''t go on forever. I don''t know if I really trust him to keep us up anymore but I''m happy to stick with him until Christmas.

There are a small number of racist fans out there but I think I speak for some fans when I say, his achievements at Norwich flatter him a little bit. So people are a little miserly with giving him praise.

I want to scream whenever the topic of racism is mentioned or racist abuse is directed at him, it''s so embarrassing and shameful, one fan can make us all look like the offspring of the love scene in deliverance.