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There is still racism out there.   We all know it. 

There are some  fans of our club who have been  prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich.  He doesn''t fit their image - the way he talks, the way he looks - after all that is what image is.    Could it be racism?  

Surman used to get flack because of the way he "looked",  Wilbraham got stick at first because of the way he "looked".    We all have images in our head of what people we like the look of and the way they act.   Wilbraham won people over.  Surman always was a target too.  But it boils down to abuse.   

But abuse and racism are closely linked.     Some stop short of saying they don''t like him because he is black, but are there any closet racists out there who secretly dislike having a black manager?     Abuse Roeder because the team were struggling.  Abuse Delia because of her decisions when we were doing badly.   Abuse Hughton because........?       We are doing badly?   No we are improving.We finished low in the table last season?  No.We haven''t got better players in?  No - Redmond - no more needs to be said.Not doing well this season?   Third from bottom, but one win off mid table.

I can''t fathom it - unless some of those that are so vociferous in wanting him out have an agenda that is something that society doesn''t accept any more.  Racism.  

I''m not accusing anyone.   Just putting the question out there.  No one is going to come on here and say they are racist, but we all have heard racist comments in our lives - its still out there.  

Some may regard this as stirring it up, but I  can''t get it out of my head that at least some of the abuse that Hughton gets is based on more than just football. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"]There is still racism out there.   We all know it. 


There are some  fans of our club who have been  prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich.  He doesn''t fit their image - the way he talks, the way he looks - after all that is what image is.    Could it be racism?  


Surman used to get flack because of the way he "looked",  Wilbraham got stick at first because of the way he "looked".    We all have images in our head of what people we like the look of and the way they act.   Wilbraham won people over.  Surman always was a target too.  But it boils down to abuse.   


But abuse and racism are closely linked.     Some stop short of saying they don''t like him because he is black, but are there any closet racists out there who secretly dislike having a black manager?     Abuse Roeder because the team were struggling.  Abuse Delia because of her decisions when we were doing badly.   Abuse Hughton because........?      

We are doing badly?   No we are improving.
We finished low in the table last season?  No.
We haven''t got better players in?  No - Redmond - no more needs to be said.
Not doing well this season?   Third from bottom, but one win off mid table.


I can''t fathom it - unless some of those that are so vociferous in wanting him out have an agenda that is something that society doesn''t accept any more.  Racism.  


I''m not accusing anyone.   Just putting the question out there.  No one is going to come on here and say they are racist, but we all have heard racist comments in our lives - its still out there.  


Some may regard this as stirring it up, but I  can''t get it out of my head that at least some of the abuse that Hughton gets is based on more than just football. 



[/quote]

 

Yes you are, every Hughton outer.

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I know exactly what you mean, been thinking it myself as well, its only a recently as the late ''90s you could still hear racist songs at Carrow Road. (before anyone jumps down my throat, I distinctly remember several thousand people singing ''town full of P@k*s'' anytime we played Bradford/Leicester in that period).

 It''s become socially unacceptable to hold those views, but that doesn''t mean people still don''t hold them.

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LDC, without wanting to sound controversial, Hughton isn''t the ''stereotypical black guy'' anyway. He isn''t there wearing chains and talking in rhymes etc. I doubt anybodys dislike about Hughtons personality is anything to do with race.

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[quote user="First Wizard"]




 

Yes you are, every Hughton outer.

[/quote]

 

No he''s not, just asking the question why this particular manager seems to generate more vitriol and abuse than any I can remember in my time supporting Norwich (including Megson, Worthy, Grant, Roeder, Gunn).

 

I hope both myself and the OP are wrong

 

 

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]LDC, without wanting to sound controversial, Hughton isn''t the ''stereotypical black guy'' anyway. He isn''t there wearing chains and talking in rhymes etc. I doubt anybodys dislike about Hughtons personality is anything to do with race.[/quote]

Yeah because racists only hate other races who conform to a stereotype don''t they?

 

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Are you saying LDC that because of his ethnicity that he is beyond criticism? Not even Chris Hughton himself would say that his acceptable.

What I see are comments on his negativity in terms of tactics and his poor choice of substitutions etc. when comparing these to say Lambert I think they are fair comments. There is no need to stir things up by bringing race into the mix all I see are footballing reasons for people''s views

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[quote user="Local canary"]Are you saying LDC that because of his ethnicity that he is beyond criticism? Not even Chris Hughton himself would say that his acceptable.

What I see are comments on his negativity in terms of tactics and his poor choice of substitutions etc. when comparing these to say Lambert I think they are fair comments. There is no need to stir things up by bringing race into the mix all I see are footballing reasons for people''s views[/quote]

There is a politically correct lobby these days that prevents people from saying what they really think.  So they try and cover it up or disguise it in other forms of abuse designed to have some kind of derogatory effect that stops short of racism.    Its fine to have footballing reasons for a manager to be given the sack - as long as those reasons are footballing and not based on some kind of prejudice, whether its racial prejudice or just down right prejudice about his personal background, the way he talks, "too nice", etc etc.  

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It''s human nature. It''s a survival instinct. If we accept that instead of taking the childish "big bad wolf" attitude about it, then jt would be easier to manage. Making it illegal doesn''t help although it does set up for an ugly backfire of historic and devastating proportions. Remember Yugoslavia.

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A number of people didn''t want him before he arrived, so they claim, based on his footballing tactics even though he came here being known for playing attractive attacking football.Sadly he is not Paul Lambert and it is the unbridalled success which we''ve had over the last few years which unfortunately has coloured people''s opinions of him and the deluded expectation that nothing other than fast fluent football which takes us into the Europa or Champions League will be good enough.The vitriol shown towards a successful manager, such as Hughton, does not make sense.But for sure, there will be some racism mixed in there too for some sad individuals.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]There is still racism out there.   We all know it. 

There are some  fans of our club who have been  prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich.  He doesn''t fit their image - the way he talks, the way he looks - after all that is what image is.    Could it be racism?  

Surman used to get flack because of the way he "looked",  Wilbraham got stick at first because of the way he "looked".    We all have images in our head of what people we like the look of and the way they act.   Wilbraham won people over.  Surman always was a target too.  But it boils down to abuse.   

But abuse and racism are closely linked.     Some stop short of saying they don''t like him because he is black, but are there any closet racists out there who secretly dislike having a black manager?     Abuse Roeder because the team were struggling.  Abuse Delia because of her decisions when we were doing badly.   Abuse Hughton because........?       We are doing badly?   No we are improving.We finished low in the table last season?  No.We haven''t got better players in?  No - Redmond - no more needs to be said.Not doing well this season?   Third from bottom, but one win off mid table.

I can''t fathom it - unless some of those that are so vociferous in wanting him out have an agenda that is something that society doesn''t accept any more.  Racism.  

I''m not accusing anyone.   Just putting the question out there.  No one is going to come on here and say they are racist, but we all have heard racist comments in our lives - its still out there.  

Some may regard this as stirring it up, but I  can''t get it out of my head that at least some of the abuse that Hughton gets is based on more than just football. 

[/quote]Wow. You really are quite ignorant aren''t you? I''ve never heard such a bunch of tripe in my life. You are making assumptions of people who post on this board under false names with no idea of ethnicity or background. In fact, you hide behind your message board name knowing the security that it brings you so you can make such outlandish comments. One would suggest sir (or it could be madam), that you know diddly squat of what you preach and should keep your narrow minded views to yourself unless you have evidence to back these theories up.

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[quote user="Robert911"][quote user="lake district canary"]There is still racism out there.   We all know it.  There are some  fans of our club who have been  prejudiced in their attitude to Hughton ever since he arrived at Norwich.  He doesn''t fit their image - the way he talks, the way he looks - after all that is what image is.    Could it be racism?   Surman used to get flack because of the way he "looked",  Wilbraham got stick at first because of the way he "looked".    We all have images in our head of what people we like the look of and the way they act.   Wilbraham won people over.  Surman always was a target too.  But it boils down to abuse.    But abuse and racism are closely linked.     Some stop short of saying they don''t like him because he is black, but are there any closet racists out there who secretly dislike having a black manager?     Abuse Roeder because the team were struggling.  Abuse Delia because of her decisions when we were doing badly.   Abuse Hughton because........?       We are doing badly?   No we are improving.We finished low in the table last season?  No.We haven''t got better players in?  No - Redmond - no more needs to be said.Not doing well this season?   Third from bottom, but one win off mid table.I can''t fathom it - unless some of those that are so vociferous in wanting him out have an agenda that is something that society doesn''t accept any more.  Racism.   I''m not accusing anyone.   Just putting the question out there.  No one is going to come on here and say they are racist, but we all have heard racist comments in our lives - its still out there.   Some may regard this as stirring it up, but I  can''t get it out of my head that at least some of the abuse that Hughton gets is based on more than just football. 

[/quote]Wow. You really are quite ignorant aren''t you? I''ve never heard such a bunch of tripe in my life. You are making assumptions of people who post on this board under false names with no idea of ethnicity or background. In fact, you hide behind your message board name knowing the security that it brings you so you can make such outlandish comments. One would suggest sir (or it could be madam), that you know diddly squat of what you preach and should keep your narrow minded views to yourself unless you have evidence to back these theories up.[/quote]

I am  not ignorant or narrow minded.  I have made no assumptions.   I am not hiding behind anything.   My comments are based on months and months of  reading this board and trying to understand  people''s point of view.  I asked the question, that is all.

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Somebody started a thread around the time of the Stoke game, wondering whether the people on here who were still supporting Hughton-or rather, failing to criticise him-were doing so out of a sort of "positive racism".

3 games later, with a good win at Stoke and 2 good performances against Chelsea and Arsenal, and people still want him out.

There''s nothing wrong with that opinion, but people seem to be failing to take into account what teams we''ve just played. Posts pointing out 7 goals conceded in 2 games-sure, if that was against Palace and Sunderland I''d be very worried but against Chelsea and Arsenal? What did you expect?

There are loads of people who are just not willing to give CH any credit for anything positive and all too willing to jump on his back for anything negative.

For the record I don''t think it''s racism, as this would surely have manifested itself long before the recent couple of incidents but exactly why they seem to hate him I don''t know.

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I asked about the paternalistic attitude towards CH of several of his defenders and wondered if it was race based.

I disagree that criticism would have been more obvious further back. Several have been critical from the start. I don''t know that it''s racial but it''s possible. I think those who do harbor racial sentiments towards CH but are fans would be willing to overlook that until things went bad, the same way they do with players. So the criticisms would then be masked but more persistent. Which is where we are now.

Or maybe it''s just the way it is regardless of race.

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]some people view Norfolk as a sleepy little back water. sadly with that comes "sleepy little backwater" views..[/quote]

 

I hate the needless abuse Hughton has been getting and I hope he starts to get the results we all want.

I also hate racism and any other type of bullying.

But I must point out that your assumption that racism comes from sleepy little backwater views also smacks of needless ignorant stereotyping and lazy assumptions.

I believe that most people in Norfolk are some of the most welcoming anywhere.

If you want to see overt racism from football fans , I suggest you visit some of the forums of some of the London clubs, one in particular of a club in South London may make you revise your opinions .

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Wow...

Just out of interest (and not even my view) but are these people you speak of allowed to just, you know, not like him because they would rather someone else is in charge?

Or is racism more likely to you? even though I have never seen a racist comment about Hughton on this board but I have seen plenty of people who would rather someone else was in charge and they are welcome to their opinion.

In my mind they are free to think that without accusations of racism...your op, imo, is in very poor taste.

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A couple of unrelated, random comments online does not indicate anything. They are not indicitive of any pattern or trend in this part of England. They were just comments by solitary fools who are either looking to cause trouble, or too simple to understand what they''re saying.

 

A fuss about nothing, and I don''t think it deserves any tabloid space or further comment to be honest. Can we talk about football please?

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It''s more than a couple of unrelated comments.

Many times posters have wondered where all the vitriol comes from. Resentment over losing Lambert is mentioned as a reasonable factor as well as the boring style we adopted until very recently. some are wondering aloud if there''s more to it.

Of course there aren''t overtly racist comments on here. That''s the sort of thing that lands people in jail in your country, and the lack of same is why some are wondering aloud about the persistent criticism of a seemingly nice fellow. Obviously much of it IS football related and often well expressed, but some of it just seems like criticism for the sake of criticism. If its harsher for CH than it was for truly unpleasant and bad managers like Roeder, then why?

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This really is a great subject and well written message LDC, something similar I was thinking about writing recently, but some how sort of bottled it as I just felt it would be taken the wrong way or I would actually be accused somehow of being what I was highlighting, if you know what I mean.

I have felt for a long time that the abuse and criticism CH gets on this board is way out of proportion and have suspected that there maybe a hidden agenda perhaps, I have no evidence of this and I too am certainly not accusing anyone of anything (although I will certainly be accused of doing just that I guess), BUT it is definately slightly worrying.....

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You have answered pretty much your own question Houston.

Taking over from Lambert has always meant Hughton was never going to match up in some supporters eyes. The fact that his sides brand of football has not been to somes liking has upset others.

I was being tongue in cheek, of course no one is going to post racism on here, but I was also making the point that most people back up there view with a football opinion. You may not agree with it (I often don''t) but those who wish him out have always seemed to me to genuinely want it for footballing reasons, rightly or wrongly they are entitled to that opinion.

Maybe those (imo idiotic) Man U supporters wanting rid of Moyes have now discovered there hidden xenophobia? or more likely he has taken over from an immensely popular manager and to a certain element of supporters he hasn''t matched up?

Are there any racist NCFC supporters? Almost certainly, unless racism has ceased to be an issue in our society and I missed it or the news stories surrounding our manager recently are incorrect.

"I can''t fathom it - unless some of those that are so vociferous in wanting him out have an agenda that is something that society doesn''t accept any more. Racism."

That is a pretty huge an unsubstantiated accusation, one that I''m not even sure how we are meant to discuss? Unless we are to believe that an influential amount of Hughton disliking posters are racist?

I''m sorry but imo the OPs post was in very poor taste in relation to an extremely sensitive subject.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

This really is a great subject and well written message LDC, something similar I was thinking about writing recently, but some how sort of bottled it as I just felt it would be taken the wrong way or I would actually be accused somehow of being what I was highlighting, if you know what I mean.

I have felt for a long time that the abuse and criticism CH gets on this board is way out of proportion and have suspected that there maybe a hidden agenda perhaps, I have no evidence of this and I too am certainly not accusing anyone of anything (although I will certainly be accused of doing just that I guess), BUT it is definately slightly worrying.....

[/quote]I 100% agree that Hughton gets more stick on this message board considering the results.However, I hope this has more to do with him being the successer to a very successful manager, who was not sacked, but left because he got a (perceived) better offer.I''ve actually never considered any other reason for this until reading the OP. I think it''s a worthwhile discussion, but one that''s going to be very difficult not to escalate into a messageboard bloodbath of name calling and borderline inappropriateness.I don''t hold out much hope for this thread. I hope I''m wrong.

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Going off on a bit of a tangent but not much-has there been any ''Hughton Out"'' sentiment expressed at any games? Didn''t hear any at the 2 games I''ve been to this season.

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So because we want a change after 14 months of woeful football and our manager happens to be mixed race we''re racists.

Astounding thread.

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No, I completely disagree. Seven years ago Worthington got way more abuse on here than Hughton at the same stage of the season. I don''t remember his Northern Irish roots being an issue, so I can''t see why Hughton''s Northern Irish/Ghanian roots are an issue. People implying there is an underlying racial issue to the negative comments he gets really are plain wrong, and I don''t think they realise just how much of a serious accusation it is. Two people trolled the internet and left comments. It''s not an issue. Stop making it an issue. Nothing to see here. Move on people.

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Thanks Jonezy and Monty. I appreciate your takes on this. Likewise Theoklitis (I think it was he who said CH does seem to get overly abused). It''s interesting to keep this on an unemotional plane and get clear-headed perspectives.

It''s especially interesting that the same scenario delivers very different points of view even though we''re all looking at it from the same basic perspective.

Despite that, I feel enlightened on the whole issue, and I feel more positive about it too.

.

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This thread is utterly ridiculous. The criticism aimed towards Hughton has absolutely nothing to do with the colour of his skin, hair, shoes or car and it is pathetic to suggest otherwise. The sole reason for the criticism is the poor run of results and form since Christmas.

I''ve seen VERY little criticism that could actually be classed as abuse either, certainly in comparison to some of the stuff spouted about Roeder and Worthington.

In fact, I think the supporters have stuck by him to a surprising extent, particularly at games. I''d wager that at the vast majority of Premier League grounds there would be chants for the managers head if the team were on a run of 2 wins in 20.

Stop trying to paint City fans as something they''re not based on one idiots comment on a stupid Facebook page.

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As someone we goes to every game there is NO racist atmosphere at the carra. There are loads of moans and groans about not getting forward, to many back and sideways passes etc and that along with the lack of wins is the basis of people''s dissatisfaction.

Looking at the thread it is the usual lot who are never near the carra who express the racist undertones when anyone who actually knows the club understands that it is an unthreatening and friendly place to watch footie unless of course the binners of wolves at the visitors

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