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Jim Smith

Second half yesterday a 45 minute demonstration of why the "bedwetters" have a point.

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Yes we had lots of chances yesterday, yes on another day we might have won but we say that too often. Yesterday I cannot criticise Hughton for the team selection nor how we went about things in the first half. RVW or Redmond could have started and I would have felt the same but these were marginal calls.

The second half, however, sums up everything that frustrates me about Hughton and why I think he falls short if what is required if we are to progress at this level. Cardiff looked a pretty poor side and were there for the taking. They will have been mightily relieved to get in at half time all square. At that point though their management made two sensible and logical tactical subs. They sacrificed a forward and decided they were go to park the bus/kill the game etc,etc. it was understandable in the circumstances. What drives me mad though is that we just let them do it. No response from our bench, no positive change to reflect the fact we had them on the back foot. Instead we came out and for 25 minutes went through the motions, lacking the zip we had in the first half. Then, after our 3 wise sages in the dugout debate the matter in the iPad for 15 minutes he brings on Redmond and Elmander ( who looks a complete cart horse at the moment) in a like for like change whilst inexplicably leaving it until 3 minutes from time to bring on RVW. Their manager made changes that in my view gained them a point. Our manager failed to react and we in the end let them have their point.

Last week Hughton got it wrong when he took Tettey off. This week he again showed how lacking he is when it comes to proactively influencing the course if a game during play. He is a nice man, a decent man but he displays all the attributes of a training ground coach rather than a manager. However many chances we had that result was disastrous and I think Mcnally will be thinking very hard this morning about whether Hughton really has what it takes to get the best from this group of talented players. If he''s not then he should be.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Yes we had lots of chances yesterday, yes on another day we might have won but we say that too often. Yesterday I cannot criticise Hughton for the team selection nor how we went about things in the first half. RVW or Redmond could have started and I would have felt the same but these were marginal calls.

The second half, however, sums up everything that frustrates me about Hughton and why I think he falls short if what is required if we are to progress at this level. Cardiff looked a pretty poor side and were there for the taking. They will have been mightily relieved to get in at half time all square. At that point though their management made two sensible and logical tactical subs. They sacrificed a forward and decided they were go to park the bus/kill the game etc,etc. it was understandable in the circumstances. What drives me mad though is that we just let them do it. No response from our bench, no positive change to reflect the fact we had them on the back foot. Instead we came out and for 25 minutes went through the motions, lacking the zip we had in the first half. Then, after our 3 wise sages in the dugout debate the matter in the iPad for 15 minutes he brings on Redmond and Elmander ( who looks a complete cart horse at the moment) in a like for like change whilst inexplicably leaving it until 3 minutes from time to bring on RVW. Their manager made changes that in my view gained them a point. Our manager failed to react and we in the end let them have their point.

Last week Hughton got it wrong when he took Tettey off. This week he again showed how lacking he is when it comes to proactively influencing the course if a game during play. He is a nice man, a decent man but he displays all the attributes of a training ground coach rather than a manager. However many chances we had that result was disastrous and I think Mcnally will be thinking very hard this morning about whether Hughton really has what it takes to get the best from this group of talented players. If he''s not then he should be.[/quote]Pretty much sums it up for me. I''d also add I''m a bit concerned about what is said at half time- we seem to start the second half really slowly everytime.

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I also wonder what the hell Hughton says to the team at half time. Yesterday taught me two things, either Hughtons half time team talk is severely lacking or as a team we are not fit enough.

There must be an explanation as to why we could not keep up the same performance level for the 2nd half.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Yes we had lots of chances yesterday, yes on another day we might have won but we say that too often. Yesterday I cannot criticise Hughton for the team selection nor how we went about things in the first half. RVW or Redmond could have started and I would have felt the same but these were marginal calls.

The second half, however, sums up everything that frustrates me about Hughton and why I think he falls short if what is required if we are to progress at this level. Cardiff looked a pretty poor side and were there for the taking. They will have been mightily relieved to get in at half time all square. At that point though their management made two sensible and logical tactical subs. They sacrificed a forward and decided they were go to park the bus/kill the game etc,etc. it was understandable in the circumstances. What drives me mad though is that we just let them do it. No response from our bench, no positive change to reflect the fact we had them on the back foot. Instead we came out and for 25 minutes went through the motions, lacking the zip we had in the first half. Then, after our 3 wise sages in the dugout debate the matter in the iPad for 15 minutes he brings on Redmond and Elmander ( who looks a complete cart horse at the moment) in a like for like change whilst inexplicably leaving it until 3 minutes from time to bring on RVW. Their manager made changes that in my view gained them a point. Our manager failed to react and we in the end let them have their point.

Last week Hughton got it wrong when he took Tettey off. This week he again showed how lacking he is when it comes to proactively influencing the course if a game during play. He is a nice man, a decent man but he displays all the attributes of a training ground coach rather than a manager. However many chances we had that result was disastrous and I think Mcnally will be thinking very hard this morning about whether Hughton really has what it takes to get the best from this group of talented players. If he''s not then he should be.[/quote]SPOT ON JIM!!!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"] The second half, however, sums up everything that frustrates me about Hughton and why I think he falls short if what is required if we are to progress at this level. Cardiff looked a pretty poor side and were there for the taking. They will have been mightily relieved to get in at half time all square. At that point though their management made two sensible and logical tactical subs. They sacrificed a forward and decided they were go to park the bus/kill the game etc,etc. it was understandable in the circumstances. What drives me mad though is that we just let them do it. No response from our bench, no positive change to reflect the fact we had them on the back foot. Instead we came out and for 25 minutes went through the motions, lacking the zip we had in the first half. Then, after our 3 wise sages in the dugout debate the matter in the iPad for 15 minutes he brings on Redmond and Elmander ( who looks a complete cart horse at the moment) in a like for like change whilst inexplicably leaving it until 3 minutes from time to bring on RVW.[/quote]

Exactly how I saw it.

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"Huckerbys Boots Matt"I also wonder what the hell Hughton says to the team at half time. Yesterday taught me two things, either Hughtons half time team talk is severely lacking or as a team we are not fit enough.

There must be an explanation as to why we could not keep up the same performance level for the 2nd half.

I did wonder this as well. Some have said it''s because of Malky''s subs, which is a fair point, but there seems to be more to it than that. We seem to tire quickly and it has been noticeable in a fair few games lately. Am I making this up or is this noticeable to others?

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Oh I wish I''d posted on this thread.

I was trying to say something similar but couldn''t get people to understand, let alone agree.

I think the op is pretty damn accurate.

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Spot on, he just doesnt have the ability at this level. The same way a decent championship player cant make the step up neither can he.

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A brilliant summary from Jim of why this ertswhile Hughton supporter has started seriously pondering. Given our comparitive lack of money the manager has to be able - unlike Keegan, for example, to "do" tactics. And it looks as if Hughton is another Worthington, for whom that was a weak point at Premier League level.Yesterday was my first look at NCFC since West Brom emailed in their "performance" from Lloret del Mar. Or was it DisneyWorld?  For what it is worth, some first impressions of the new players. I expected to be impressed by Olsson (the one player in the starting line-up with pace) and Hooper, and was.Fer, though, was a disappointment. Not that he played badly, but I had imagined an all-purpose midfielder - combative but technically gifted, and - crucially - two-footed. instead he semed as painfully one-footed as Tettey (and Johnson as it happens). So too much of our midfield build-up was like watching a couple of supertankers turn round, as the ball was manoeuvred on to the favoured foot, with only Howson comfortable either way. And for Elmander it looks very much like a season too far. I gather RvW came on at some point.As for the game, I think the shot statistics were pretty misleading. Yes, on another day, one of the efforts would have gone in. But too many were from outside the box, or from the angle, or from a ball pinballing around in a melée, or from a set piece. I will happily be corrected, but I don''t remember one chance of ours as clearcut and as well-worked, from pure football, as that Cardiff spurned in the first half.

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Spot on Jim.In the second-half it was immediately obvious that Cardiff were playing a much higher line, with their back four pushed up right onto the half-way line. In these circumstances, it would be an obvious tactical response to bring on a player with real pace – ie, Redmond – and get him running into all the space behind the Cardiff defence. It took Hughton and his coaches 28 minutes to recognise this and bring him on.Our second-half performance was poor yesterday and Hughton was the man who could''ve done something about this, much sooner, and much more decisively.

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[quote user="Pat"]Spot on Jim.In the second-half it was immediately obvious that Cardiff were playing a much higher line, with their back four pushed up right onto the half-way line. In these circumstances, it would be an obvious tactical response to bring on a player with real pace – ie, Redmond – and get him running into all the space behind the Cardiff defence. It took Hughton and his coaches 28 minutes to recognise this and bring him on.Our second-half performance was poor yesterday and Hughton was the man who could''ve done something about this, much sooner, and much more decisively.[/quote]

 

Yes Pat!! This was my criticism. I would have subbed Redmond for Pilks 10/15 mins into 2nd half. And tried that for a while before making any further changes. In fact in a game like this I would certainly have started Redmond.

 

 

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Absolutely spot on Jim. Watched the extended highlights on TV when you probably can take a more balanced view compared with watching live when you are merely craving for a goal. As with Chelsea and Arsenal we played well and ball control and passing have been much better. The midfield are finding more space and in particular Howson is able to drive forward in a positive manner.Hooper played quite well and had far more touches and movement than RVW had shown.

To me the weaknesses were that neither Snodgrass or Pilkington are sufficiently supportive for the front man. I have always looked upon Snodgrass as more of a "Frank Lampard" and not a winger. Despite Hughton''s comments re "one up front" Pilkington did at times play more of a central role in this ridiculously called 9 and half position so we  might as well have played two strikers in the first place !! I do not particularly rate Pilkington because he seems to disappear for long periods and we simply cannot afford this when we are searching for a goal. Redmond produced more in his short spell than Pilks did for a far longer priod. Elmander should have started but if necessary subbed by Becchio. If RWV was not fit why on earth do you bring him on for 5 mins.

I agree with other comments that we do seem to tire after 75 mins, on TV, Howson looked shattered towards the end. At least Hughton, eventually, noticed it. As we have nothing to lose in Manchester I would play Martin and Bennett as central defenders. Martin is an organiser but Seb''s style is not that of a captain and we need more pace from the younger and fitter player.

We are good enough to stay up but some fine tuning and confidence in front of goal necessary.

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Spot on Op. That second half was a classic case point as to why Hughton is not a premier league manager tactically. As you say Cardiff started with a 4-1-4-1 formation with only their number 8 Medel offering any protection to the back 4. Concequently we dominated the first half and Fer and Howson were causing Cardiff all sorts of problems through the center and it looked only a matter of time until we scored. Not supprisingly at Half time Mackay brought on Gunnarson and Cowie two hard working midfielders and instructed them to protect the back four and stop Howson and Fer getting time on the ball and effectively flood the midfield, taking off Kim and Odemwingue and leaving Campbell pretty isolated it looked like Cardiff were going to settle for 0-0. Hughton and his muppets on the sideline then seemed to take 20 odd minutes to work out what to do when it was clear after 10 minutes of the 2nd half as far as i was concerned that Cardiff''s changes had worked as intended and the onus was now on us to do something counteractive. To me it seemed obvious that we now had two center half and a Dm in Tettey picking up just Campbell often on his own in our half. I have no problem with the substitution of Redmond for Pilkington as we needed pace out wide. So imo clearly what Hughton needed to do was take off Tettey who was not required because cardiff had no CAM''s on the pitch and replace him with a striker either Elamnder or RVW to play alongside Hopper in a 4-4-2 and get crosses in from Snoddy and Redmond and try to bypass the crowded Cardiff centeral midfield. Or he could have taken off Turner, gone 3 at the back we would have still had Bassong and Tettey to cover against Campbell which im sure would have been adequate as Cardiff were offering nothing offensively and brought on another striker and gone 3-4-3. Instead the inept Hughton makes two like for like changes, we continue to play 4-2-3-1 for the entire match and Cardiff get the 0-0 draw they came for. Thats why Hughton has to go Now!

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Can''t disagree with much of that Jim.However.Its all too easy to say, with hindsight, if we were managers, that we would have made different substitutions. Because its a point that can never be proven.I don''t disagree that, with hindsight, different changes could have been made, but if that shot from Redmond had gone in, well we wouldn''t even be discussing substitutions, would we?

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Herman wrote the following post at 2013-10-27 2:17 PM:

"Huckerbys Boots Matt"I also wonder what the hell Hughton says to the team at half time. Yesterday taught me two things, either Hughtons half time team talk is severely lacking or as a team we are not fit enough.

There must be an explanation as to why we could not keep up the same performance level for the 2nd half.

I did wonder this as well. Some have said it''s because of Malky''s subs, which is a fair point, but there seems to be more to it than that. We seem to tire quickly and it has been noticeable in a fair few games lately. Am I making this up or is this noticeable to others?

Firstly spot on Jim, great post and full agreement from me, just makes it so frustrating.

Herman, also spot on, particularly the last three games, although Chelsea and Arsenal, both games had pace throughout, but we tired dramatically in both, and at Arsensl I actually suggested we didn''t show effort in the last 20 mins, but after yesterday I do think we lack fitness of a level to compete for 90 minutes, and it isn''t a lack of effort as it looks.

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Just seen these stats posted elsewhere.

Norwich city''s last 30 PL games, 6 wins 28 goals 27 points.

He cant stop the rot and since xmas we are returning less than a point per match. If we don''t get shot of him we are going down.

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Spot on Jim, nothing changes and it is clear that nothing will. Just not up to the job unfortunately.

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[quote user="morty"]Can''t disagree with much of that Jim.However.Its all too easy to say, with hindsight, if we were managers, that we would have made different substitutions. Because its a point that can never be proven.I don''t disagree that, with hindsight, different changes could have been made, but if that shot from Redmond had gone in, well we wouldn''t even be discussing substitutions, would we?[/quote]

I don''t think it is hindsight though morty. I think the frustration for many in the ground is because we are spotting it long before Hughton.

I kind of agree that it would not be such a talking point if we had scored however, I still think it would''ve left many disappointed because it wouldn''t have changed the fact that many were desperate for the change to be made, and there would still be comments about it.

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[quote user="The gut"][quote user="morty"]Can''t disagree with much of that Jim.However.Its all too easy to say, with hindsight, if we were managers, that we would have made different substitutions. Because its a point that can never be proven.I don''t disagree that, with hindsight, different changes could have been made, but if that shot from Redmond had gone in, well we wouldn''t even be discussing substitutions, would we?[/quote]

I don''t think it is hindsight though morty. I think the frustration for many in the ground is because we are spotting it long before Hughton.

I kind of agree that it would not be such a talking point if we had scored however, I still think it would''ve left many disappointed because it wouldn''t have changed the fact that many were desperate for the change to be made, and there would still be comments about it.[/quote]But are we spotting it before Hughton though? Seriously do you consider many people here, or even in the crowd at games, that know more about football management than an actual Premiership manager.I think some think its as easy as playing Championship manager or Fifa lol.I''m sorry, I may not agree entirely with all his decisions, but I temper it with the fact he does this for a living, I don''t.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]Spot on Jim, nothing changes and it is clear that nothing will. Just not up to the job unfortunately.[/quote]

Indeed..........my suspicions with Hughton were first aroused when we played West Ham at home in August last year, when in similar cirumstances to yesterday ,we were drawing 0-0 vs a beatable newly promoted team and he refused to commit men forward for fear of losing the game- even worse knowing that the 4 fixtures that followed were Liverpool,Chelsea,Newcastle and Arsenal

here we are 14 months on ,with a supposedly better strikeforce and the manager remains just a cautious. Brave managers get rewarded, ours is anything but.

5 wins in 2013....Hughton Out

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I do think many spot it beforehand. I know you get plenty of people that realistically don''t understand football, having never played it or been involved but don''t do all the fans a disservice by dismissing their opinions simply because he is a serving premier league manager. Many fans have many years experience of watching and understanding what is happening. In general our fans have got it right over the years about when the manager has had sufficient time to please them, I feel it''s got that way with me now. I know not of this FIFA sh1t of what you talk. As soon as it is mentioned I switch off.

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[quote user="The gut"]I do think many spot it beforehand. I know you get plenty of people that realistically don''t understand football, having never played it or been involved but don''t do all the fans a disservice by dismissing their opinions simply because he is a serving premier league manager. Many fans have many years experience of watching and understanding what is happening. In general our fans have got it right over the years about when the manager has had sufficient time to please them, I feel it''s got that way with me now. I know not of this FIFA sh1t of what you talk. As soon as it is mentioned I switch off.[/quote]You clearly sit in a hallowed part of the ground where people know what they are talking about.I am surrounded by NFN''s who shout the same random things whatever is happening on the pitch![:D]

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GJL, my concerns were first raised when I went to the Reading away game last season, a really poor Reading side were there for the taking, but conservative Chris failled to rise to the challenge.

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