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morty

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Deserves its own thread, in case anyone misses it.Well said "Rock the boat"The Hughton haters always argue from the basis of denying our successes

last season. To them the unbeaten run (the best in the whole of Europe

at that time) was to them a mere blip. The wins at the end of the season

and the opposition were on the beach.

They simply bury their heads in the sand when it comes to the good

parts - the parts that saw us finish higher than the previous manager

ever acheived.

Last season the criticism was that the football was dire and turgid,

even though we were going about picking up a point here and a point

there, enough to ensure we were realistically never really in trouble.

This season the side has had a mixed start, some good some not so

good. We can put this inconsistency down to the side needing to gel, to

find the how to operate as a team.

Since Stoke we have not had a bad performance. The Hughton haters

have got the attacking football they so craved. On Saturday we were the

most attack minded side in the League. Last season the haters wanted

Hughton to go for broke when we were a goal behind and entering the

final period of the game.

Well Hughton gave them that against Arsenal and Chelsea, and we can see the damage it did to our goal difference.

So we have greatly improved performances, we have dominated

possession in some games, we have matched Aresenal and Chelsea for

greater parts of those games, we are creating plenty of scoring chances

that we didn''t used to do and yet the Hughton hating morons still live

in denial.

The point is this. If you don''t acknowledge our improvements and

continue personal attacks on the manager, it will begin to filter

through to the players during games. They will react to the negativity

by becoming frustrated and performances will decline.

Then we will really be in trouble. The haters demands will become

reality and an excellent manager will lose his job because of the poison

spread by so called fans.

What is ironic, is that many of those calling for Hughton to be

sacked are 1p5wich fans who have infiltrated this message board. Pete

has flushed a few out and I notice that no longer get to spread their

lies.

Your in and out votes are in fact a reflection more on you than on

Hughton. You vote out and you go join the bottlers. You have no spine.

When the going gets tough you wimp out. You''re like little children

stamping you feet because you don''t get what you want. The truth is that

you don''t really deserve what you already have because you only show

your support when the going is easy. You only sing when you''re winning.

You''re not plastic fans, you''re pathetic fans. And they''''ll be

laughing at you down at portman road if you ever manage to get Hughton

sacked.

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You are right, but management is a fickle game, message boards alone don''t oust a manager. We need results and we need them fast, Man City next followed by an international break doesn''t help matters, i feel the best we can realistically hope is that we get a draw and Stoke lose, we''ll then be 17th and it won''t look as bad.

I agree that we have to look at the positives and realise we''re 3 points off 9th and it''s going to be tight right from about 9th through to 18th this season, but we''ve missed some big opportunities to get points after dominating the likes of Hull and Cardiff without finding a way through. How much of that you can attribute to Hughton I don''t know.

If he does go though, it won''t be because he ''deserves to'' for being useless, it will be because we need results and a shake up to get the players tails up and the fans back on side. Look at how it''s worked at Sunderland yesterday.

I do feel that if after the next two home games that we''re not out of the doldrums, it may be time to sharpen the axe. Sometimes you can''t put a finger on why it doesn''t work, but it just doesn''t. I''m hoping we''re just waiting to click like last season and we''ll go on a great run either side of Christmas and all this angst and worry can be forgotten about and laughed off at the celebratory dinner in May.

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This whole thing is hilarious, if both sides sat down and looked at what they are actually saying to one another...

The ''Hughton outers'' apparently don''t see any good.

The ''Hughton inners'' apparently don''t see any bad.

There is clearly both good and bad going on, if you think there are no problems you are as deluded as someone who wants Hughton to go with no questions asked. If you want Hughton to go because you think he''s completley inept you''re also pretty deluded.

It''s surely quite clearly not black and white?

We have problems, no one is expecting us to win every game 5-0. But after two or three very encouraging performances, but losing too two top sides, we needed to build on that and actually beat Cardiff. We had 31 shots. More than anyone else in the PL. And we didn''t score. That''s stupid. Some of it was plain bad luck sure, but some of it was down to slow build up and inevitable blocked/easy save/impossible chances because Cardiff had so much time to organise their defence.

Too many people on here and twitter, and a few I heard/spoke to at the ground after the game are just completley unwilling to accept the middle ground, which is odd.

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Pretty sure I haven''t seen anyone here say theres nothing wrong GP. Have you?And I think you''ll find its mainly the "outers" that are being stubborn and hiding behind stats, and refusing to see any good at all.

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That post is a wonderful example of the pomposity exhibited by the happy clappers who infest this board. After quick glance, one might think that the post offers rational argument, but a closer reading reveals that the post is nothing more than a cheap, bombastic, ad hominem attack on Hughton''s detractors, in much the same way progressives hysterically shout down anyone who questions multiculturalism.

"You disagree with me, ergo you must be an Ipswich fan."

Twits.

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[quote user="pyjamas"]That post is a wonderful example of the pomposity exhibited by the happy clappers who infest this board. After quick glance, one might think that the post offers rational argument, but a closer reading reveals that the post is nothing more than a cheap, bombastic, ad hominem attack on Hughton''s detractors, in much the same way progressives hysterically shout down anyone who questions multiculturalism.

"You disagree with me, ergo you must be an Ipswich fan."

Twits.[/quote]Well done.Well debated.Good use of big words, by the way.

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Hughton Haters?

 

I''m a Hughton Outer...................there is a difference.[^o)]

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That''s exactly what I''m talking about Morty.

I have no problem with you, but that post is one of many like that I''ve read from you and others on both sides. The ''extremists'' so to speak seem so intent on defending their viewpoint, they don''t actually defend their viewpoint they just try to belittle the other. I''ve seen posters say you''re a happy clapper with no clue, and sen you call them stubborn and hide behind stats.

I''m sure you do know we aren''t playing perfectly, like I''m sure even Wiz knows we have actually been playing quite positively, but in the spirit of this ''game'' that''s going on between the two sides that doesn''t seem to come up too often,

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[quote user="First Wizard"]

Hughton Haters?

 

I''m a Hughton Outer...................there is a difference.[^o)]

[/quote]So where does personally insulting him fall into your philosophy then?What was it you called him on here the other day?

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]That''s exactly what I''m talking about Morty.

I have no problem with you, but that post is one of many like that I''ve read from you and others on both sides. The ''extremists'' so to speak seem so intent on defending their viewpoint, they don''t actually defend their viewpoint they just try to belittle the other. I''ve seen posters say you''re a happy clapper with no clue, and sen you call them stubborn and hide behind stats.

I''m sure you do know we aren''t playing perfectly, like I''m sure even Wiz knows we have actually been playing quite positively, but in the spirit of this ''game'' that''s going on between the two sides that doesn''t seem to come up too often,[/quote]I''m a pragmatist, not some blind idiot that thinks everything is fine.If you think I''m at one end of the scale then frankly you''re wrong.I prefer logical, calm analysis, instead of crying like a baby because my football team lost. Frankly the way some people behave, not only here, is embarrassing.

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"Well done.

Well debated.

Good use of big words, by the way."

Thank you, Morty. I''m glad you understand why Hughton cuts a controversial figure.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="First Wizard"]

Hughton Haters?

 

I''m a Hughton Outer...................there is a difference.[^o)]

[/quote]

So where does personally insulting him fall into your philosophy then?

What was it you called him on here the other day?


[/quote]

 

I don''t know fella, you remind me eh?

 

But how can I hate a man I''ve not even met?

 

Thats why I don''t hate you, dislike and you''re a sod some days..........but not hate.

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And the. wiz backs up my point from the other side.

Instead of actually saying anything about the way he thinks we''re playing, he''s just gone and said he''s a Hughter outer, not hater.

It''s more interesting for arguments sake to apparently establish what you think you are and what you think of the people at the opposite end of the spectrum, than to actually discuss the football being played and why we didn''t score, why we lost 4-1 when we played well and why we''ll probably end up being safe again this season.

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[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="morty"][quote user="First Wizard"]

Hughton Haters?

 

I''m a Hughton Outer...................there is a difference.[^o)]

[/quote]So where does personally insulting him fall into your philosophy then?What was it you called him on here the other day?

[/quote]

 

I don''t know fella, you remind me eh?

 

But how can I hate a man I''ve not even met?

 

Thats why I don''t hate you, dislike and you''re a sod some days..........but not hate.

[/quote]"Fracking moron" is what you called him.Says everything about you, and your footballing opinions I''m afraid.

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For all this wonderfulness Morty, we still sit in the relegation zone, with relegation form for the whole of 2013.

But I am hardening in my Hughton In stance (with reservations). Performances are much improved, and if we keep playing like this results will come. If our performances drop off, we are in real trouble. The main failing under the Hughton reign still persists, our continued inability to get the frontman involved.

I still have massive reservations over players in poor form getting picked week in week out just like last season. We have the best squad I can remember at the club, and yet if you are outside the first XI, you won''t get picked unless someone gets injured. It can''t be good for either the morale of backup players or indeed our results, and promotes complacency in the first XI.

As an example, Martin, Snodgrass, and Bassong have been struggling this season, do their places look under threat. Not a chance.

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If anyone wants a well thought out, rational analysis of why we should replace Hughton, then please read The Engineer''s post.

It''s a world away from the "two strikers" "clueless idiot" junk that usually appears, & makes a convincing case.

I agree with most of it (& I would imagine Morty does too?), but it does NOT mean replacing Hughton is necessarily the right thing to do (which I also suspect The Engineer thinks too!).

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That''s fine Morty, I''m sure you are.

I wasn''t meaning too just single you out anyway, but on the few threads I''ve looked at you''ve mostly been involved in arguments that don''t involved any analysis. I''m sure it''s just because you''re pissed off at some posters stupid over reactions. And it''s clearly having a negative effect on your reputation so to speak, if only for me... There is no reason why you should have to ignore illogical posts saying Hughton out with no reasoning! but there isn''t many ways you can respond to those! and those posters without resorting to insulting them because they aren''t interested in actually talking about the football.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="morty"][quote user="First Wizard"]

Hughton Haters?

 

I''m a Hughton Outer...................there is a difference.[^o)]

[/quote]

So where does personally insulting him fall into your philosophy then?

What was it you called him on here the other day?


[/quote]

 

I don''t know fella, you remind me eh?

 

But how can I hate a man I''ve not even met?

 

Thats why I don''t hate you, dislike and you''re a sod some days..........but not hate.

[/quote]

"Fracking moron" is what you called him.

Says everything about you, and your footballing opinions I''m afraid.
[/quote]

 

Agreed.........and he is imo...........but I don''t hate him.

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[quote user="ron obvious"]If anyone wants a well thought out, rational analysis of why we should replace Hughton, then please read The Engineer''s post.

It''s a world away from the "two strikers" "clueless idiot" junk that usually appears, & makes a convincing case.

I agree with most of it (& I would imagine Morty does too?), but it does NOT mean replacing Hughton is necessarily the right thing to do (which I also suspect The Engineer thinks too!).[/quote]It was indeed a very good post, and you''re right, now is not the time.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]That''s fine Morty, I''m sure you are.

I wasn''t meaning too just single you out anyway, but on the few threads I''ve looked at you''ve mostly been involved in arguments that don''t involved any analysis. I''m sure it''s just because you''re pissed off at some posters stupid over reactions. And it''s clearly having a negative effect on your reputation so to speak, if only for me... There is no reason why you should have to ignore illogical posts saying Hughton out with no reasoning! but there isn''t many ways you can respond to those! and those posters without resorting to insulting them because they aren''t interested in actually talking about the football.[/quote]I enjoy a good argument as much as I like debating football, sometimes the lines get blurred[;)]

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Whilst I acknowledge some of your "positives" I think like our tactics this is an oversimplification of the problem.

For me the biggest positive is that we have probably the best squad we have ever had in our history and I wold not doubt the commitment in any game this is a massive plus.

But this is also a negative, if we cannot create clear cut goal scoring chances given our riches of talent there is something wrong. To paint 2013 as positive in any way considering our points haul only points to desperation and thankfully a number of teams that were even poorer than us allowing us to avoid being relegated.

If a team has 31 shots in a game and does not score a goal can you honestly see this as positive ? This means either wrong players or wrong position to take on a shot.

Against Chelsea we played well and I have to put my hands up and say I could not fault the manager or players for anything in this game I think Chelsea just wore us down and in the final period of the game they had the quality against tired legs.

Bringing Hoolahan on for Tettey at Arsenal ranks as one of the most unfathomable substitutions I have ever seen from a Norwich Manager and to say I wasn''t surprised at the outcome would be an understatement.

The problem is everybody seems to look at things in black or white. Tactics are not as simple as too defensive or too attacking.

Tactics need to evolve and there need to be certain tactics employed for certain games, people suggesting that the reason Tettey wasn''t taken off to accommodate an extra striker on Saturday was due to what happened at Arsenal. Not sure I could think of a more damning statement of our managers tactical limitations if that were in fact the case.

We have one plan and one plan only and the only variation is in terms of personnel.

4-5-1

Not only that but we have a midfield who seem to find it almost impossible to get whichever striker is on the pitch the ball. So 9 games into this season is there any sign that lessons are learned.

Pilkington , Howson and Redmond seem happy to shoot from anywhere on any occasion , still at least this adds to the concept that we had a shot.

Saturday was the first time we got any crosses in early and for once a striker got the ball in a dangerous area.

I think everybody would like Hughton to succeed he seems like a lovely guy but Norwich need a manager that can make a team perform to more than the sum of its parts not less.

We have some very versatile players in the squad that should allow us to tinker with the formation during a game but it never happens.

I''m happy to go along with the don''t expect anything away/top 6 but when we can''t beat Hull with 10 men or Cardiff at home where exactly do people expect our points to come from ?

4-5-1 is of course a no brainer when it comes to formation away from home or indeed I have no problem with starting all games with this formation but if its not working something has to change but never does.

I said we should change our manager if we didn''t achieve 10 points from the first 10 games if we were to get anything at all from next weekend I might be willing to look at needing to get 15 from 15 as a minimum but you must understand a point per game is still relegation form and we have shown nothing more this year.

I cannot imagine any other manager has ever had stats of 6 wins in 36 games with 27 points and still been in a job.

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Which thread is this post by the Engineer on Ron ?[/quote]

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3005095/ShowPost.aspx

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The polarisation and placing people in the in/out camp does not help the debate and frankly I am not sure its helpful for the OP to make sweeping generalisations and say that anyone who questions Hughton a coward with no stomach for the fight.

Our fan base is a broad church and there will always be people in different camps with their own opinions about what is or is not working at our club. Generally we are all united by the desire to see the team win, however that is ultimately achieved and under whoever''s management it may be. The interesting thing with the Hughton Outers as you call them (more accurately I would say those who do not think Hughton can turn it around thus think we should cut our losses asap before its too late) is that almost to a man they will tell you that they respect and like Chris Hughton and would like to see him turn it round. i actually think that has saved him from far more vitriol that would have been aimed at other managers had they presided over a similar spell of results.

Its also slightly ironic to say that "Hughton outers" ignore the 10 match unbeaten run last season when it is also true to say that "Hughton inners" (or those who still think Hughton has the ability to turn it around) tend to ignore the entire second half of last season or indeed almost all of last season outside of that unbeaten run.

Personally i look at his entire reign in charge. Yes the 10 match unbeaten run was great and kudos to him for that. In particular, the wins over Man United and Arsenal were excellent performances achieved with a comfort and solidity that i don;t think Lambert could have managed, That said within that run there were a few uninspiring draws against weaker teams I feel we could have beaten had we been more positive so its not as if some of the current concerns were not present even at that time. personally i do think that West Brom and Man City were "on the beach" so I tend not to give quite so much credit for those victories (although I tend to think we could have beaten West Brom at home anyway) which whatever anyone claims due to the tightness of the league table did see us achieve an 11th place finish that was somewhat flattering.

Similarly though if credit is given for the 10 match run then by the same token the fact its now 6 wins in 30 games also has to be taken into account. You can''t have it both ways.

Overall we have better players now and Hughton does seem to be able to spot and sign a decent player. I will acknowledge that recent performances have seen improvements, if not necessarily in results but in the shape of the team and the style of play. That said he seems to take longer than I would like to work out things that i honestly believe are quite evident to fans watching our matches for some time before Hughton acts. Its only my opinion but i think may fans could have pointed to the fact that our ten match run saw Tettey playing as the holding midfielder meaning others could push forward and thus that was worth going back to far sooner than he has. I think also that virtually every fan on this messageboard could have said that Howson needed to be released into the role he is now playing to be most effective. I also think Olsson over Garrido was a bit of a no brainer as was bringing back Ruddy for Bunn last season but in both cases he took quite a bit longer than I would have liked (possibly due to over caution over bringing them in too soon). He seems to get there in the end but I think what worries fans is that he seems to take a long time to get there and when you look at the fact we are approaching the 10 game mark and our last 4 games this season are exceptionally hard the fact is we probably need to gain 35 points plus over the next 25 games. Looking at the Cardiff game and the next 4 at home this looks like one of the most likely windows for us to start accumulating those points so we can''t really afford to waste it hoping that results will turn. For that reason, I really do feel that regardless of whether we continue to play well if we don;t win against West Ham (anything this weekend is a bonus - but lets see how we get on there with Man City needing the points) we have to take some swift action.

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I would also link into the point about him taking a long time to get there that the same applies re tactics during matches. Again this looks like being a tight league. Good managers who are able to change the course of game scan be worth a few points to their team over the course of the season. Indeed they can see teams over achieve as I think was probably the case with Lambert in both the championship and our first season up. We won lots of games we probably did not deserve to win by pinching late goals or taking a bit of a gamble. I think in general Hughton''s team selections and starting tactics are better than Lambert''s (who often got the starting line up wrong but then did change it early) and we probably have "deserved" to win more games under Hughton than we did under Lambert but the unfortunate fact is that we don''t win them. Again in the context of a tight league that''s a a bit of a worry and I don;t think its an unreasonable concern.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]And the. wiz backs up my point from the other side.

Instead of actually saying anything about the way he thinks we''re playing, he''s just gone and said he''s a Hughter outer, not hater.

It''s more interesting for arguments sake to apparently establish what you think you are and what you think of the people at the opposite end of the spectrum, than to actually discuss the football being played and why we didn''t score, why we lost 4-1 when we played well and why we''ll probably end up being safe again this season.[/quote]
Perhaps it would''ve been helpful to define what ''hater'' means as this subject has been given its own thread in the first place.
Is it ''just because'' of name calling or something.  In which case most people have named called on this board at some point.  So in that case do we all hate each other?

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This whole thing is hilarious, if both sides sat down and looked at what they are actually saying to one another...

"The ''Hughton outers'' apparently don''t see any good.

The ''Hughton inners'' apparently don''t see any bad.

There is clearly both good and bad going on, if you think there are no problems you are as deluded as someone who wants Hughton to go with no questions asked"

Not saying you have made this up GingerPele but the majority of Hughton In arguments I''ve seen are well reasoned.

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