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lake district canary

The job just got a lot harder

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I think that there are a lot of fans out there who have been wanting to see development and were waiting to see that come to fruition during the course of this season.   Fresh players with pedigree, learning to play together.  While this may still be true, even the most hardened of fan will have been depressed a bit by last night''s result and performance.   Whatever the competition, going to Manure is a big match and Hughton reflected this in his line up.  Eight changes, but still a strong looking line up defensively.  

However, the old shortcomings were obvious from the start.   Bad passing from Johnson, Hoolahan looked an ineffectual passenger and  the whole team looking ponderous.   So the weakness in the squad is still there.    Then the decision making - leaving out Hooper - ok you might be protecting him for Saturday, but why play any of the first team in that case last night?    Murphy surely deserved a start, not coming on due to two injuries.  

A bad evening from the club and  the pressure on Hughton has just got worse.   He could have played a much more adventurous game, with a smattering of young players - but didn''t.   Old players who ok, needed game time, but when it was clear it wasn''t working for them, there should have been changes earlier.    Easy in hindsight you might say, but the combination of Johnson and Hoolahan and the lack of pace with Snosgrass in a five man midfield  was just too poor for the level of football the club needs at this level.   It is the midfield that struggled so badly last season, with Redmond and Fer struggling to have an effect within that.  

Old problems, players struggling to have an effect, couldn''t  Hughton see what would happen?   At least with younger players in it would have sent out a message, ok, lets have a go, have a good experience and make it  positive?

The effect from the match is to put a downer on the whole club as far as the fans are concerned.  

Like I said.  Hughton is not making things easier for himself and its going to take something special to turn it around.

 

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I agree. Either play the proper first team and go for it or play a few more youngsters, put it down to experience and let them play with a bit of youthful enthusiasm. Instead we did neither and managed to bring about the worst possible outcome from the night without even remotely looking like winning at any stage.

If Hughton is not able to throw off the shackles and give it a go against a weakened Man U team in a cup competition where there are no points at stake then i really do not see when he is going to be able to do it.

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Agreed LDC, good post. It is a fair assumption that we will not got anything against Man City, and we really should be looking at getting at least 5 points from WHU, Newcastle and Palace, for me our points tally and league position at 30th November will be interesting, and it will shape my opinion on the merits of Chris Hughton remaining as manager........

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As much as people hate it, Twitter is a good indicator as to the performance of a team / manager. Yes you get extreme opinions on there (on both sides) but when you read the #ncfc and #canarycall discussions as a whole you will see that the majority now want Hughton out. Highlighted by the #hughtonout tag.

This is a major swing of opinion from before Cardiff where opinion was 50/50. Only a decent battling performance against Man City and a win at home to West Ham will save him now.

I think he''s got 2 games to turn this around.

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To me last night shoed 2 things.

1. The problem with not rotating squad players enough and sticking to a fixed first 11, in this day and age.

2. The lack of a proper competitive reserves system will always keep the ''smaller'' teams down.

The clubs regularly in Europe can keep their deep squads fit snd happy because tgey have at least 6 more games a yearat the top level and so can attract talented deep squads and can rotate easily without really losing any shape or quality.

It is hard to expect players like Hoolahan & Johnson to just come in and be up to speed when they have bareky played 20 minutes of competitive football between them in the last few weeks.

I pretty much agreed with the line up last night and on paper should have performed well. But They looked demotivated and clueless. One has to ask why?

They are good players and we know they can play better than they did. The question has to be asked why they didn''t?

Snake

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I felt sorry for Wes last night, it''s always going to be tough throwing players into a game when they have not played for ages. Another consequence of CH poor use of subs, at least if they are give 20 mins in a game they keep in touch with the pace of a game, Wes looked lost.

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I am afraid to say LDC that what you have posted regarding the situation as been staring us in the face for some while now. As I said a few weeks back Hughton has bought some expensive high calibre bullets in RVW,Hooper and Fer coupled with bargain purchases of Redmond and Olsen but unfortunately he has no idea how to load the gun.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]I am afraid to say LDC that what you have posted regarding the situation as been staring us in the face for some while now. As I said a few weeks back Hughton has bought some expensive high calibre bullets in RVW,Hooper and Fer coupled with bargain purchases of Redmond and Olsen but unfortunately he has no idea how to load the gun.[/quote]

I think the onus has been on us as fans to give Hughton time to show he can do the business, given new players coming in etc etc.  However, there is a limit.  In the league things look  a little better, even if the goals are not flowing yet, but yesterday was not helpful and imo could have been approached in a better way.     We need everything to be positive from now on in and yesterday cannot be seen as positive in any way, except perhaps as a message that some of our players are not up to it.

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I agree that it has got a lot harder - RvW still not fully fit, Tettey and Benno injured, and now Snoddy and Redmond. These have been among our more impressive performers and, given the size of our nucleus of squad members who are really premiership class, it means that we shall have to use some of the lesser members of the squad. We are due some luck, but we need "something special", of course.

 

There are many calling for CH''s head, and they may get their wish if we suffer another thumping defeat next match, which seems possible. If there is a replacement manager soon, what will he achieve with our resources? We were counting on improving the squad next summer with another round of SKY money. The new manager will have little opportunity to improve quality until January, and it could be that after a week or two to find him and a week or two for him to judge what he has, it could be almost Christmas before he can achieve anything in any case.

 

The immediate future is bleak, and could be made worse from the volume of criticism on here. We have to maintain the quality of our general play and also greatly improve our finishing. Who is capable of that?

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It gives me very little pleasure to say this Lakey, but you have, it seems, finally recognised what many have done for months now.

I''m afraid that it does not take a huge deal of imagination to see this season very soon spiralling hopelessly out of control. I''m the first to admit that I''m naturally a very pessimistic person (some might say a cynic !), and I truly wish I could see light at the end of the tunnel for a Hughton run Norwich City. But, in truth, I cannot. As you say, the job is getting demonstrably tougher by the week, and the moment of truth really is closer than many of the happy clappers seem to believe. My main concern is that if the board sit on their hands for a great deal longer, it will be too late , even if we brought a triumvirate of Jose Mourinho, Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola in as a management team !

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Any of you who have seen my posts on other threads will know that I''m very much in favour of retaining the manager until such time that it is clear that he is failing, and that in my view we are only 3 points from 9th place and therefore our league position could change significantly very quickly.

However, I wasn''t at all happy with last night. When you go to Old Trafford you know it''s a tough ask even with your best XI on the field, but we make 8 changes and lack any cohesion whatsoever. Sometimes lady luck deserts you, but sometimes you shoot yourself in the foot, and that is what CH did last night. A woeful display that makes you wonder why you bothered punching the air when Hooper scored that late winner at Watford.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]It gives me very little pleasure to say this Lakey, but you have, it seems, finally recognised what many have done for months now.

I''m afraid that it does not take a huge deal of imagination to see this season very soon spiralling hopelessly out of control. I''m the first to admit that I''m naturally a very pessimistic person (some might say a cynic !), and I truly wish I could see light at the end of the tunnel for a Hughton run Norwich City. But, in truth, I cannot. As you say, the job is getting demonstrably tougher by the week, and the moment of truth really is closer than many of the happy clappers seem to believe. My main concern is that if the board sit on their hands for a great deal longer, it will be too late , even if we brought a triumvirate of Jose Mourinho, Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola in as a management team ![/quote]Spiralling hopelessly out of control!! Behave! It''s nine games in what is the point of looking at the league table now? We are hardly cut adrift for heaven sake. It is not like we have had an easy run of fixtures. Not only have we played some of the Big 4 already but Everton and Southampton look class and the points taken from them should not be taken lightly. It''s been a mixed back of results so far no doubt but the apocalyptic doom scenario you paint it certainly is not, get a grip!

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Hughton''s time does seem limited.

So many fans are at the very least worried, and more and more and wanting him gone. A manager just can''t survive with that kind of pressure. I know we keep saying after this game, after that game. But in my eyes if we lose the next two games he''s gone, simple as that.

We''ve had some good performances, and 30 shots no goals isn''t just Hughton''s fault, but it''s three good performances 1 point. Then a no show against Man,U when the players and the fans needed a confidence boost.

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Perhaps you''d better re-read my posting, Hertford, before you advise me or anyone else to get a grip.

I did not say that the season IS spiralling out of control, but did suggest that it does not take much imagination and a continuance of the current run for that to become a reality.

Of course, the opposite is true. We COULD go on an unbeaten run, and score a hatful of goals into the bargain. Trouble is, I defy you to explain to me why that does NOT take a leap of imagination.

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Trouble is, the players are now getting criticised in varying degrees for under performing, when many of us think the players are fine. The squad is good but something is dangerously wrong with management and coaches.

Even with some of our better performances, the problems are there. Robotic, slow, hesitant movement in the last third. No great leadership, either on the pitch or off it.

Failure to react promptly to the opposition changes during a game. Watching Hoots and his dynamic coaches pouring over tactic sheets with no apparent prompt result. Actually, the image of their masked ''Halloween'' like faces whilst carrying out this obviously daunting task is now beginning to haunt me. :-(

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With respect we all told ourselves that we were not going to win this game, if we did it would be a bonus, some are writing off this coming Saturday, saying that few teams get a result against Man City and we should judge Hughton on the next two home games.

 

I agree that we will probably play 12 games this season against Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool Man U & Man City where any result is a bonus, but that should not prevent the manager and the team believing that they are good enough to get something from every game.

 

I don’t get that feeling from Mr Hughton or the players when we go into these games. This time last year we beat Arsenal and Man U, we beat a Man City team last year too, they might have not been fully focussed but still a very good team and result, so we know that this team can do this, but am I the only one who gets the feeling Norwich players and management go into these games already thinking we can’t win?

 

Even with the improvements of recent weeks the results have been very poor, you can’t lose 3-1, 4-1 and 4-0 with Man City to come, we can’t drop to another 6-0 loss, it would be too demoralising.

 

Off the back off a no show again by a Norwich team full of players who should be putting in a performance pushing for a first team call up, we have seen a team who have some players resigned to the fact that they are not required, Wes & Garrido were nothing short of shocking considering this was a chance to show that they are worth a go in the starting 11.

 

I do feel a little short changed and I respect Morty for being one of those who travelled so far and still defends his team, respect there Morty.

 

I am still on the fence after last night and probably will be after Saturday, but come West Ham, nothing short of a win will do and considering West Ham don’t concede many away from home this will be a hard game, so the question is::::::

 

Does Hughton do the honourable thing  and quit now, wait until Saturday when a poor result and performance against Man City will see fans slowly turn on Hughton, then decide to go or does he sit it out and take the brunt of criticism from the fans during the West Ham game, if we don’t win I’m sure the board will act to make changes.

 

I will stay a fence sitter and proud to do so as I really can’t see anyone better out there to take over, Zola won’t leave a well backed Watford destined for the Premiership, O’Neill has been out of football for a while and his track record is not that good, and the others being mentioned are either pie in the sky or lower league gambles.

 

The board will replace Hughton with the likes of Ince, doing well with Blackpool and won trophy with MK dons and has some poor premiership experience with Blackburn. This would not be too popular with most on here, but forget high profile managers or lower league managers, MacNally will go for the same type of safe mid style manager as Hughton was, Championship level successful manager with premiership playing experience, mark my words.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Perhaps you''d better re-read my posting, Hertford, before you advise me or anyone else to get a grip.

I did not say that the season IS spiralling out of control, but did suggest that it does not take much imagination and a continuance of the current run for that to become a reality.

Of course, the opposite is true. We COULD go on an unbeaten run, and score a hatful of goals into the bargain. Trouble is, I defy you to explain to me why that does NOT take a leap of imagination.[/quote]Say what you really feel Reggie, there is a lot of  "could" , "maybe" and "imagine" in your statement which leads to little being stated. You also do not quantify the variable of time for this spiralling to start e.g. if you meant 2 more games then using the words "spiralling out of control" is ridiculous but if you mean 15 games then you could imagine such a scenario. I''m honestly not singling you out for an argument but I do think people have gone way over the top with their negative assessment of the situation. I''m not going to use the term imagination because that says nothing, I can imagine a win against Man City, it''s unlikely but I can imagine a scenario where it happens. The reason I don''t think we will be entering a spiral of negativity like Palace and like Sunderland in the next 5-7 games is  because I don''t think our situation has the same feel about it. 1)  The downward cycle at both clubs started pre-season. The players hated Di Canio at Sunderland way before he was sacked, Holloway looked a very jaded man on the opening day of the season, tired and lacked confidence. 2) Both made big mistakes in the transfer market which ruined the stability of the squad, most agree Norwich (and Hughton) have signed well. 3) We have not been woeful, the points have not come granted but the performances have been decent and have not suggested a team that doesn''t want the manager.

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Well, I too am not spoiling for an argument, Hertford, but I''m afraid vocabulary such as "could" "maybe" and "imagine" is the only applicable one as far as the future is concerned, be that 2 games or 15 games. Unless any of us have the type of ball used by Crystal Canary !

In fact, I nowhere have stated that the season will spiral out of control if we lose to Man C and fail to beat Wet Spam. I repeat, all I''m saying is that it''s not difficult to imagine the concept of this happening, if we fail to, say, collect 10 pts from the next 8 games.

The three points you make in your second paragraph are all fair enough, but, with respect irrelevant to the current NCFC situation. It was at this stage last season that the future of QPR and Reading became irretrievable, and unfortunately, the fact is that if we continue on current form the same could befall us.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Well, I too am not spoiling for an argument, Hertford, but I''m afraid vocabulary such as "could" "maybe" and "imagine" is the only applicable one as far as the future is concerned, be that 2 games or 15 games. Unless any of us have the type of ball used by Crystal Canary !

In fact, I nowhere have stated that the season will spiral out of control if we lose to Man C and fail to beat Wet Spam. I repeat, all I''m saying is that it''s not difficult to imagine the concept of this happening, if we fail to, say, collect 10 pts from the next 8 games.

The three points you make in your second paragraph are all fair enough, but, with respect irrelevant to the current NCFC situation. It was at this stage last season that the future of QPR and Reading became irretrievable, and unfortunately, the fact is that if we continue on current form the same could befall us.[/quote]But why hide behind the ambiguity of "imagine a scenario", why not say "I think if we lose to ....  then" or "if we are still in bottom 3 at... then". As I stated the use of imagine offers nothing to debate, I can imagine a scenario where we beat Man city, if it happens I say "I told you so" if it doesn''t I just say "well it was only an imaginary scenario". "if we fail to, say, collect 10 pts from the next 8 games." That is much more of a statement and quantifiable for me to debate. I think 8 games more is a good gauge.You also state that my reference to Palace and Sunderland is irrelevant and use Reading and QPR as more valid examples. I would say the QPR situation was very similar to Sunderland''s (transfer policy) and not at all like ours (settled squad but not scoring). Also you say Reading''s position was irretrievable but their performance after changing managers did not change at all, it could be suggested that there position became irretrievable partly because they changed manager/coaching staff?

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It''s a fair point, Hertford. There''s no cast iron guarantees that changing the manager will have the desired effect. But surely that''s what the debate is centring around ? There are those who believe sticking with the status quo is the best bet. And others who see a change of manager is less of a gamble. All about opinions, see.

And I really do not understand your somewhat pedantic point about "imagining" etc. As with anything in the future , whatever language you use, it''s bound to be conjecture, isn''t it ?

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]It''s a fair point, Hertford. There''s no cast iron guarantees that changing the manager will have the desired effect. But surely that''s what the debate is centring around ? There are those who believe sticking with the status quo is the best bet. And others who see a change of manager is less of a gamble. All about opinions, see.

And I really do not understand your somewhat pedantic point about "imagining" etc. As with anything in the future , whatever language you use, it''s bound to be conjecture, isn''t it ?[/quote]Maybe it is pedantic to pick on the terminology used. I took it''s use as some prime fence sitting but it was not meant to be then fair do. I think where we differ is that the two sackings so far this season have been unavoidable. Holloway said he was not up to it, The players at Sunderland were on the verge of striking. QPR dressing room didn''t respect Warnock. At Norwich I don''t see much of that, I think the squad is confidence shy but not fragmented, the manager still carries respect and the performances have not lacked heart or in many cases quality. After this week we will have got Arsenal, Spurs and Man City away out the way. We should have beaten at least one of  Villa, Cardiff or Hull and that is poor but... we are not adrift and have plenty more football left to play.

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Good OP and thread. The thing is, had CH gone for a much younger team and we had lost heavily he would certainly have received as much if not more criticism than he has for fielding a team that gave several genuine squad players some desperately needed time on the pitch. Likewise, had he fielded his first choice side, had we lost evenly narrowly, then again he would have been criticised, and I suspect he would have been criticised even had we won with a first choice side. He really cant win right now, BUT yes you couldnt help be disappointed after last nights almost no show,in a game we handed to Manure, particularly from some of those players given the opportunity to impress, its those players I have a problem with way more than CH right now.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]I think that there are a lot of fans out there who have been wanting to see development and were waiting to see that come to fruition during the course of this season.   Fresh players with pedigree, learning to play together.  While this may still be true, even the most hardened of fan will have been depressed a bit by last night''s result and performance.   Whatever the competition, going to Manure is a big match and Hughton reflected this in his line up.  Eight changes, but still a strong looking line up defensively.  


However, the old shortcomings were obvious from the start.   Bad passing from Johnson, Hoolahan looked an ineffectual passenger and  the whole team looking ponderous.   So the weakness in the squad is still there.    Then the decision making - leaving out Hooper - ok you might be protecting him for Saturday, but why play any of the first team in that case last night?    Murphy surely deserved a start, not coming on due to two injuries.  


A bad evening from the club and  the pressure on Hughton has just got worse.   He could have played a much more adventurous game, with a smattering of young players - but didn''t.   Old players who ok, needed game time, but when it was clear it wasn''t working for them, there should have been changes earlier.    Easy in hindsight you might say, but the combination of Johnson and Hoolahan and the lack of pace with Snosgrass in a five man midfield  was just too poor for the level of football the club needs at this level.   It is the midfield that struggled so badly last season, with Redmond and Fer struggling to have an effect within that.  


Old problems, players struggling to have an effect, couldn''t  Hughton see what would happen?   At least with younger players in it would have sent out a message, ok, lets have a go, have a good experience and make it  positive?


The effect from the match is to put a downer on the whole club as far as the fans are concerned.  


Like I said.  Hughton is not making things easier for himself and its going to take something special to turn it around.


 
[/quote]

 

This really does contradict what you said approximately 24 hours earlier in another of those threads where you try to instruct others on the positive side of things where you said, " Even if we lose both these next matches, the position won''t have changed that much, as the meat of the season  contains so many matches against supposedly non top six sides.   I''m not a stats man and will always see a positive view - and performances are improving - so imo we are shaping up to the challenge pretty well."

 

That''s 24 hours.....not 24 days.  Another turnaround and you will be competing for the throne of the Wizard.

 

 

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I think that there are a lot of fans out there who have been wanting to see development and were waiting to see that come to fruition during the course of this season.   Fresh players with pedigree, learning to play together.  While this may still be true, even the most hardened of fan will have been depressed a bit by last night''s result and performance.   Whatever the competition, going to Manure is a big match and Hughton reflected this in his line up.  Eight changes, but still a strong looking line up defensively.   However, the old shortcomings were obvious from the start.   Bad passing from Johnson, Hoolahan looked an ineffectual passenger and  the whole team looking ponderous.   So the weakness in the squad is still there.    Then the decision making - leaving out Hooper - ok you might be protecting him for Saturday, but why play any of the first team in that case last night?    Murphy surely deserved a start, not coming on due to two injuries.   A bad evening from the club and  the pressure on Hughton has just got worse.   He could have played a much more adventurous game, with a smattering of young players - but didn''t.   Old players who ok, needed game time, but when it was clear it wasn''t working for them, there should have been changes earlier.    Easy in hindsight you might say, but the combination of Johnson and Hoolahan and the lack of pace with Snosgrass in a five man midfield  was just too poor for the level of football the club needs at this level.   It is the midfield that struggled so badly last season, with Redmond and Fer struggling to have an effect within that.   Old problems, players struggling to have an effect, couldn''t  Hughton see what would happen?   At least with younger players in it would have sent out a message, ok, lets have a go, have a good experience and make it  positive?The effect from the match is to put a downer on the whole club as far as the fans are concerned.   Like I said.  Hughton is not making things easier for himself and its going to take something special to turn it around.[/quote]

 

This really does contradict what you said approximately 24 hours earlier in another of those threads where you try to instruct others on the positive side of things where you said, " Even if we lose both these next matches, the position won''t have changed that much, as the meat of the season  contains so many matches against supposedly non top six sides.   I''m not a stats man and will always see a positive view - and performances are improving - so imo we are shaping up to the challenge pretty well."

That''s 24 hours.....not 24 days.  Another turnaround and you will be competing for the throne of the Wizard.

[/quote]

Thank you for highlighting the bits in red.   They sum up how I feel.   "will always see a positive view - and performances are improving - so imo we are shaping up to the challenge pretty well."Of course I will always see the positive view.  The positive view of the Manure match was that it was positively bad for the club.  Most people would surely agree with that.   But, league performances are improving and as long as that carries on being the case, things may be ok - we need to see that at the Etihad to restore some faith.   "its going to take something special to turn it around.".A win at Etihad would be special.  A win against WH will be special.  Any win would be special!   A goal from RVW or Hooper  would be special! The onus is on Hughton and the players to sort it out.   Get some goals/points  so we can all feel better about the situation.  6 - 9 points in the next four games.  Now that would be special - but it''s what we need to get away from the bottom three.

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