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nutty nigel

Old Trafford penalties

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Throughout Fergies reign there were complaints about referees gagging to award penalties in Man Utd''s favour at Old Trafford. I don''t ever remember Fergie admitting the bias existed. I guess you wouldn''t expect him to. So I was extremely interested in the highlights show on TV last night where it looked obvious that once again a referee was too eager to award a penalty to the home side at OT. Never a penalty was my reaction. It was also Hughton''s reaction. But interestingly it was also the Man Utd assistant manager Steve Round''s reaction : -

 

Round told Sky Sports: "I didn''t look like a penalty to me, it looked like he slipped over, and it was very harsh on Norwich"

 

Now I doubt Fergie would have allowed an assistant to admit Utd had the refs in their pocket and I suspect Round will get a ticking off. But I''d like to hear the referees explanation as to why he seemed to be the only person there who thought it was a penalty!

 

I''m surprised this hasn''t been discussed on here. Surely a match at Old Trafford is hard enough without playing the officials too. It''s all very well to say Utd went on to win 4-0 but that underplays the importance of the first goal in any game. It stinks.

 

 

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I take everything you say, Nigel, but I''m afraid you are guilty of a hopeless case of clutching at straws.

Our performance at OT was dire, and we were never going to get anything other than a good spanking.

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To be fair, neither side looked like doing much until that penalty was given so who knows what would have happened if it had not have been.

Still, shocking decision, but embarrassing performance from us which cannot be excused.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]I take everything you say, Nigel, but I''m afraid you are guilty of a hopeless case of clutching at straws.

Our performance at OT was dire, and we were never going to get anything other than a good spanking.[/quote]

 

And Reggie''s straight in trying make the thread something it''s not. There''s umpteen threads about how poor Norwich were. Let''s make every thread an attack on the manager and his team!!

 

 

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A man was walking along Sir Matt Busby Way shortly after a MUFC game had finished, he asked the first supporter coming towards him what the sore was.

"Nil, Nil" the supporter replied,

"Blimey" said the man "who missed our penalty?".

 

 

 

 

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Nutty,

 

I agree with you. Unfortunately we could have used that incident in two ways.

 

1. Bemoan our bad fortune and capitulate or

2. Make it irrelavent and use it to motivate us into giving them a hell of a beating!

 

The former appeared to occur.

 

Snake

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IMO the penalty was crucial and turned an interesting and evenly poised game into the usual struggle for an away team at OT who are behind.

Yes conceding the pen did knock our team back but that''s usual in football especially in a difficult away game. But we did then get back into it and at 1-0 down at hf time we were well in the game.

The second Herbandez goal was the killer and how did he get a free header in the middle of our 6 yard box - haven''t seen a replay but it must be chalked up as a mistake by one or both CBs.

Despite this we were still attacking - do I need to point out Snoddy was injured winning a header in the middle of their 6 yards box? We only really faded after the long injury break, never really got our cohesion back after it, but the score line flattered them.

Also it wasn''t just the pen, it was a succession of biased decisions in ManUs favour which were much worse than the last 2 times we played here.

We also had several sub-par performances - Elmander, Wes, BJ the most obvious. But if they hadn''t been given the early goal by the ref it could well have been different.

Of course there are plenty on here who''d just rather knock the manager than talk about why we lost.

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This thread has NOTHING to do with our performance, only the penalty decision. Does anyone think Norwich would have been awarded a penalty if the incident had occurred at the other end? I don''t. Incidents like this have happened too many times at Old Trafford over the years and the authorities have always turned a blind eye to them. Knowing refs are going to lean in their favour is a HUGE advantage to the home side.

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I give up Lapp! Let''s title every thread "sign in to have a go at our manager and players"!

 

I was totally amazed by Steve Round''s comments. I think they have huge implications and would love to hear what the ref has to say. Surely if there''s doubt it''s no penalty? Wonder if Wazzy''s around?

 

 

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The thing is, ICF, we were mostly attacking when any player available for a forward pass in MU''s half had his back to goal. If that wasn''t the case, our passing was not crisp and going sideways and backwards and then a hoof up field by one of our lads under pressure ''cos everything we did was too damn slow.

This is also why stats do not always reflect the game.

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Apologies, I did go off the OP topic but we have had many disgraceful ''penalty'' decisions particularly in the Prem.

Wrongly I suppose but I have become blasé about them and the powers that be will do absolutely nothing about it. Well they would if too many went against the so called big clubs. Ha! now completed the circle

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Not making excuses or trying to clutch at any straws, but I''m genuinely interested if anybody knows how to find out....

 

How important is the first goal at Old Trafford? How often do Man U score first and lose at home?

 

I''d guess it''s not a lot, so the fact that the breakthrough was a gift must be a huge blow.

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Well I agree Bury but atMan U they always close you down so it''s hard to find a man up front who doesn''t have his back to goal. When Redmond got the ball he''d usually have 2 men on him at once.

Like I say there were poor performances by Elmsnder and Wes plus BJ giving the ball away far too often.

And to answer the OP, I can''t imagine such a bad penalty decision would ever be given for the away team there.

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OK then Nige, I''ll play it your way if it makes you feel any better.

I''ve looked at the penalty, and, to be honest it was one of those where I''ve seen''em given and seen ''em not given. Certainly not the softest I''ve seen.

I do not think that it''s all that revolutionary to suggest that MU get more than the rub of the green at Old Trafford. In my youth, the same was said about Shankly/Paisley''s Liverpool at Anfield, and I''ve heard similar mutterings about Chelsea at the Bridge.

It may not be fair, but you or me bleating on about it on here sure aint going to change it. The point I was trying to make( and the one that as usual you threw your toys out of the pram about) was, haven''t we got more pressing concerns, and stuff we can affect, than whether we got a pen at OT in what was fundamentally a meaningless fixture ?

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]

Not making excuses or trying to clutch at any straws, but I''m genuinely interested if anybody knows how to find out....

How important is the first goal at Old Trafford? How often do Man U score first and lose at home?

I''d guess it''s not a lot, so the fact that the breakthrough was a gift must be a huge blow.

[/quote]

Yes an interesting question Warren, I''ve had a look and for the league at OT in the last 3 seasons the answer is :

Last year - Man U dropped points in 3 games (Spurs, Man C and Chelsea) all away wins where the away teams scored first.  So 16 home wins.

Year before - dropped points in 4 games, 2 defeats and 2 draws.  Man U took the lead first in only one of them (when Newcastle equalized with a controversial pen to get a draw).  15 home wins.

Year before that - dropped points in only one game, having been 2-0 up vs WBA they condeded two goals in 5 mins after half time to draw.  18 home wins then.

 

Based on very quick look at wikipedia so not guaranteeing this is 100% accurate.  2 games over 3 seasons when Man U have scored first and failed to go on to win at OT, and in neither of them did they end up losing.  I know the cups are different but their team on Tuesday was easily as strong as you''d face against Man U in the league. 

 

It also puts in perspective how difficult it is to get anything when you go to OT. 

 

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There''s a sense of injustice about the penalty and the fact that Manure and others seem to get more than their fair share of sympathetic refereeing.

When you know that you need to make sure you don''t give the ref the excuse to blow his whistle.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]There''s a sense of injustice about the penalty and the fact that Manure and others seem to get more than their fair share of sympathetic refereeing.

When you know that you need to make sure you don''t give the ref the excuse to blow his whistle.[/quote]

Good point VW. It''s much the same argument as to why, when a player is already on a yellow card do they so often risk a red one by gobbing off, or committing some unneccessary inocuous foul ?

Smart players do not give refs the excuse to blow against them.

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Thanks ICF, I suspected that it would be a similar story. Of course that''s just one angle of looking at it but as you say, some perspective from that particular viewpoint.

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Some posts on this thread make me realize some posters are on another planet from me.

 

So - you know that the ref at OT will award lots of free kicks, in and out of the box, to the home side, so you pull out of 50/50 challenges and back off from physical contact with their players, especially in the box.  Whereas they can go in full-on, in the knowledge they''re unlikely to be penalised.

 

Is it just me that thinks this might make it a bit hard to play there, as the away side?  So what we''re saying is you have 2 choices :

1. Play the game honestly and rely on the ref to do the same, but find out you''ll get penalties/free kicks awarded against you.

2. Back off from challenges, making it easier for Man U to keep possession and more likely they will score.  Especially when they get the ball into the box.

 

Of course none of this would have helped Josh Murphy who was bundled over and the free kick still went to the home side.

You are at an unfair handicap either way.

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[quote user="Its Character Forming"]

Some posts on this thread make me realize some posters are on another planet from me.

 

So - you know that the ref at OT will award lots of free kicks, in and out of the box, to the home side, so you pull out of 50/50 challenges and back off from physical contact with their players, especially in the box.  Whereas they can go in full-on, in the knowledge they''re unlikely to be penalised.

 

Is it just me that thinks this might make it a bit hard to play there, as the away side?  So what we''re saying is you have 2 choices :

1. Play the game honestly and rely on the ref to do the same, but find out you''ll get penalties/free kicks awarded against you.

2. Back off from challenges, making it easier for Man U to keep possession and more likely they will score.  Especially when they get the ball into the box.

 

Of course none of this would have helped Josh Murphy who was bundled over and the free kick still went to the home side.

You are at an unfair handicap either way.

[/quote]The Josh Murphy one, which was right in front of us, was particularly ridiculous.

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I said before that it really does look to me that there is a link between our treatment by the media & the match officials.

When we had the ball, commentary was sparse. When ManU had possession, constant eulogies. My favourite was: " & that was almost a lovely threaded pass ..." as one of their players overhit a ball. Josh Murphy in shot for about 10 seconds as he warmed up, to complete & utter silence; Rooney appears for 1 second ..."And there''s Rooney!!!"

Murphy gets shoved as he beats his man for pace, gets fouled again: free kick ManU. No comment.

I appreciate other teams in our position get rough treatment, but we just seem to be invisible. And that means the officials can do what the Hell they like with no comeback.

Did anyone accuse Sir Alex Rednose of having a "little ol'' ManU" complex when he moaned that they weren''t getting enough penalties? No?? What a surprise. But we''re supposed to take it week after week.

It''s about time we started making a racket. it''s really beyond a joke now.

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Again Reggie and others can''t separate my op from their opinion that Norwich are crap. The point was that on this occasion the Manchester United management even admitted they were gifted a penalty. What is thew opposite of wearing yellow & green glasses? because it seems to me that Reggie and co think it was more of a penalty than Man Utd do![8-|]

 

Perhaps we should have a thread pinned to the top of the board saying Norwich are crap and nothing else is relevant.

 

 

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What I find odd is that nobody has mentioned who the referee was it was the old enemy Friend. Friend is as anti Norwich as any ref I have seen. Two seasons ago Villa v Norwich he booked Pilkington for speaking out of turn to a linesman but when a Villa player done exactly the same he was told to cool it with no booking. After awarding Norwich a free kick, which Hoolahan took quickly, a Villa player intercepted from a few feet away did he order the kick to be retaken No he booked Hoolahan for protesting ( acouple of weeks later Hoolahan was again booked this time for not being the coorect distance away when a free kick was taken quickly). 

Friend is the one name you do not want to see refereeing a Norwich game.

 

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The first goal is ultra important. Teams that score first win more often than not. To concede the first goal to a ridiculous "homer" penalty makes the task even harder for the away side.Just ask yourselves, would Norwich have been given that penalty had it been at the other end.I think we all know the answer.

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Ridgeman - very interesting indeed - to add to your comment about Kevin Friend being no friend of ours, do you realise he was the ref that night when we got beat by MK Dons in the cup a few seasons ago? - issued a ridiculous amount of yellow cards (10?) and then ''forgot'', I think, to send off Wilbraham after 2 yellows (who was then playing for the Dons). That''s what I remember him for, though I may be a little off on the details - either way, he was a mess of a ref that night. Talking of refs, I''m pretty sure Paul Durkin didn''t like us either...

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The OP is a good discussion point. Forget that it was City and how we played.

 

A few years ago someone published some stats about Man Utd and the number of home pens they get. It was largely rubbished , the counter argument being Man Utd spend more time in the opponents box than most.

 

However, and this is the point, the Refs are , whatever they say , fully aware that their interpretations will get less scrutiny if they give decisions in Man Utds favour than if they do not. Fergie was the master of this. A home win, shake hands at the end , get a signed shirt from the Kit man , and off home you go, with the likelihood of staying on the list for the next week.

 

Compare that to NOT giving a pen, and even worse daring to give it the other way, all hell lets lose. Believe me, with all of the years I have had to listen to the "referees point of view" it is a fact.

 

It was never a pen, and would never ever have been given at the other end. We know it. The FA knows it and the RA knows it.

 

PS Imagine Fers goal - but this time scored by Giggs . Fergie runs down the steps, the Man Utd players surround the ref, 70,000 go up , the Ref sees his life flash before him. Dont forget he has signalled to RVW to take the throw. Before he has a chance to reverse his decison (for that is what he did) he has 11 Man Utd players in his ear.

 

 

 

 

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Thought it was clumsy and rash of fer to get so close in the box, surely the correct way is to be touch tight and stop the cross or shot NOT to make a sweeping movement with your leg, inviting the opposition player to go down. Penalty? no. Surprised it was given ? no.

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Agree with the OP.

Agree with the comments about Friend.

It is sickening. It reminds me of Craig Fleming''s comments about how pally the EPL refs are with established players.

But I''d also like to suggest Fer''s ''goal'' at the weekend, his penalty shirt grab at Stoke and his candour about both embarrassed Friend''s friends and this played a part because too many referees are incapable of simply and fairly dealing with what they see. They have to influence the game.

Last weekend a linesman gave a penalty against Liverpool when they were 3 up and the atmosphere was poisonous from the home support. It hardly ever happens at grounds like that and was met with incredulity.

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Yet again Nige goes completely OTT with anyone who does not 100% agree with the opinion he displays when posting.

Just to explain this "debate" idea Nige. It''s a vehicle where different people with either similar or different points of view discuss the burning issue of the day . Geddit ? It''s not that difficult a concept to follow.

For the record, I did actually agree with you. Yes it was a bit of a soft penalty, But I''ve seen softer (us v Southampton last season springs to mind). And yes, MoanUre do get more than their fair share. .

All I was pointing out was that I do not think it made an iota of difference to the outcome. Also, MU have been getting the rub of the green since time immemorial, so we are hardly likely to change that harping on about it here, and finally, I feel that there are much more pressing issues to deal with than that right now.

Oh yes, and just to be clear, nowhere have I said "Norwich are Crap". I described our performance in that one game at OT as "dire", and defy you to suggest otherwise.

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