11th Position Myth

[Power Hamster 0]

If we are talking about teams being "on the beach" then surely that also applied to us on the last day, as well as Man City.

And if West Brom were on the beach when they played us, they seem to have got back pretty quick for their Man Utd game on the last day - a 5 all draw with both teams going for it, from what I saw.

And what about all the other sides who were on the beach too? Should we discount all those games as well? If we do that I think that leaves us in something like, possibly, 11th position.

[ellis206 0]

So if West Brom were on the beach, how did they pull off an amazing come back the week after against United? Guessing they returned from the beach at half time and United went to the beach for the second half?

 

And out of interest Matt, did you see how much our first team cost us to assemble last year? Can you not just admit that Hughton did an amazing job last year in regards to final position and money spent?

Of course you can''t...... you will just pick and choose facts to suit your vendetta.

 

[Dubai Mark 0]

11th Position simply is not a "myth" its a "fact" and over the full season Norwich City won enough points to finish in 11th position. The season before we won enough points to finish in 12th position. During a season all the teams in the league play other teams under different circumstances, sometimes you play a side on top form and injury free, sometimes off form and hit by injuries.......generally over a season it evens out, but you still get the same number of points. It''s about the total points you gain from the 38 matches and thats what Managers are generally judged on. I dont see anyone ever questionning the 12th place under Paul Lambert, despite there being many very fortunate points gained, many lucky escapes, even some poor performances and plenty of luck along the way......for some reason memories seem to get very cloudy over that season....granted we didnt get tonked by seven, but you can see my point surely.

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="ellis206"]

So if West Brom were on the beach, how did they pull off an amazing come back the week after against United? Guessing they returned from the beach at half time and United went to the beach for the second half?

 

And out of interest Matt, did you see how much our first team cost us to assemble last year? Can you not just admit that Hughton did an amazing job last year in regards to final position and money spent?

Of course you can''t...... you will just pick and choose facts to suit your vendetta.

 

[/quote]

Decent job yes, lucky finish, yes. Amazing? no way.

Are you satisfied with Hughtons performance this season? is he the man to take us forward?

[crabbycanary 2]

Last season, no team below us lost less games than us. In fact two teams who finished above us, lost MORE games than us. How unlucky were we not to finish in a higher position? We lost 14 games out of the 38 played. That is not relegation material.

I can''t be bothered to route through all the other teams from 9th downwards, last season, to look at their unbeaten runs, no matter how large or small, nor how many ''lucky'' results they got on the way. Every team has them, we were more successful, overall, than 9 others.

[Bury Green 0]

If indeed the manager has a ''rolling year'' as his contractual arrangement with the club then how about analysing his performance on a rolling basis over the course of a year?

Do this and it makes for some pretty desperate reading and of course there are two ''stand out'' results which is pretty much where this thread started.

Seemingly though for those willing to cling to the wreckage with a good and hearty "Keep the Faith" reminiscent of other glorious chapters in the clubs history the two games at the end of last season weren''t a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.

Follow their logic and we''d still have Worthington in charge somewhere in the lower reaches of the Football League.

[Hairy Canary 668]

Perhaps someone could explain why Man City were on the beach because they had nothing to play for yet this doesn''t apply to us. We also had nothing to play for on that last day as we were mathematically safe too. Why weren''t we on the beach with Man City?

I think Hughton''s time is up but quite honestly this sort of argument for why he should go is pants.

[Matt Morriss 69]

Someone please explain to me then the reasons why Hughton should stay in the job, enlighten me on the merits of sticking with him and the plus points at the moment, cause all i hear is what he did last season as why it will get better.

[crabbycanary 2]

But you are using last season as the stick to beat him with!

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"][quote user="ellis206"]

So if West Brom were on the beach, how did they pull off an amazing come back the week after against United? Guessing they returned from the beach at half time and United went to the beach for the second half?

 

And out of interest Matt, did you see how much our first team cost us to assemble last year? Can you not just admit that Hughton did an amazing job last year in regards to final position and money spent?

Of course you can''t...... you will just pick and choose facts to suit your vendetta.

 

[/quote] Decent job yes, lucky finish, yes. Amazing? no way. Are you satisfied with Hughtons performance this season? is he the man to take us forward?[/quote]

 

I can see improvement this season, taking away the United and City games this week, I''ve seen real improvement over the past few weeks. I am currently sat on the fence and will be judging after the next 3 games.

I would also flip your argument upside down, we were incredibly unlucky last season NOT to finish higher than what we did.

The amount of wrong refereeing decisions that went against us was horrendous and cost us a lot of points.

That is fact.

 

[GenerationA47 750]

Matt, while I appreciate those good results need setting in the wider context, they are still part of Hughton''s Norwich story. They are important in showing he is capable of success with us (when he has ''got it right'' and got a bit of good fortune, as all need). They are not the be-all or end-all, but the same goes for the admittedly longer poor runs.

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]But you are using last season as the stick to beat him with![/quote]

No, im using the current shambles as a stick to beat him with, im using last season as the reason people defend Hughton and state why he shouldnt be sacked.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]Someone please explain to me then the reasons why Hughton should stay in the job, enlighten me on the merits of sticking with him and the plus points at the moment, cause all i hear is what he did last season as why it will get better.[/quote]

 

This is a thread where the OP is arguing our 11th place finish last season was a "myth", so there are many answers on why it was not.  Which tend to be discussing what happened last season.

 

If you want to debate whether or not Hughton should stay in the job, there is probably another thread on that topic ?  Or you could always start one.

[Matt Morriss 69]

The longer it goes on the less relevant the 10 game run and the 11th last season become.

The main reason Hughton should go is taking aside the last 2 matches and 11th position, over the last 30 games results have been dire. And things are showing no sign of improvement. Saturday has just showed its getting worse. Id argue things have got worse as we cant score now, we look much worse in an attacking sense.

[TCCANARY 263]

 

Saturdays result is more of a myth because we don''t lose 7-0 every week therefore taking that result and the others as a measurement is folly, the season is what counts, this season we have gained some points and lost some points, we''ve scored goals and conceded goals so that way we are going forward although maybe some weeks we might be going sideways. If we take into account the games we played and gained points then you can see that there are positives and negatives in every situation and what we must do is not isolate the bad or the good and treat them as the norm, we are living in extraordinary times and we must not treat that as being ordinary. If you narrow it down you be able to wake up and smell the coffee thats hiding the wood from the trees. Its important that we apportion blame when and where its applicable and just because you''re a good training ground coach does not mean that you''re not a nice person, nice managers do not win things except when they do like when Ken Brown won the Milk Cup, who''s to say that come 5 o''clock on Saturday when we haven''t got any points because we kick off late that there will be panic and the players will cross the white line and immediately lose te ability that they displayed in other games. If its at all possible to turn things around then maybe we should get the bloke from the Waltzers on Yarmouth pleasure beach as he''s got the experience.

I hope you all see now that although we all seek the same thing it''s not easy finding simple solutions to complicated problems and until we discover the magic bullet the toothpaste will not go back in the tube.

 

[Matt Juler 148]

I fully understand what Matt is trying to say, but unfortunately there are too many on here who just see in black and white and can''t get over this highest position in 20 odd years rubbish that completely papers over the cracks of what was an abysmal second half of the season.If Manchester City were not on the beach, please explain to me the 8 goal shift?

[Zak Van Burger 0]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]This post proves my point cause people still bang on about the 10 game run and the last 2 games like they mean something now and should be used to judge Hughton.[/quote]Matt with respect the only person banging on about the 10 game run and the last 2 games here is you. You even started a thread for the sole purpose of banging on about it. What I don''t understand is why we have to ignore all the good results and focus on the poor results to gain a true picture of Chris Hughtons tenure at the club. You are asking us to ignore one third of last season because the performances were what, well frankly because they were too good to fit your rather tenuous argument? I''m very confused as to what point you are trying to make, from where I sit you''re currently right up there with the guy who wants us to sack Hughton before the West ham game because we might win if we keep him in charge. [:^)]

[morty 0]

Oh, so we didnt finish 11th then?

[ricardo 7,349]

I think people should discount any results that run counter to the argument they are trying to make. If we had lost all those games that we won we would have been relegated and then everybody would be happy watching us win lots of games in the Championship.Unfortunately that didn''t happen so we will just have to hope that in the final 4 games of this season Liverpool, Man C, Man U or Arsenal aren''t on the beach or we might get some more gifted points and disappointingly have to stay up yet again.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Bury Green"]If indeed the manager has a ''rolling year'' as his contractual arrangement with the club then how about analysing his performance on a rolling basis over the course of a year? Do this and it makes for some pretty desperate reading and of course there are two ''stand out'' results which is pretty much where this thread started. Seemingly though for those willing to cling to the wreckage with a good and hearty "Keep the Faith" reminiscent of other glorious chapters in the clubs history the two games at the end of last season weren''t a sticking plaster over a gaping wound. Follow their logic and we''d still have Worthington in charge somewhere in the lower reaches of the Football League.[/quote]

 

Nonsense!

 

The reason this thread has gone the way it has is because the OP has tried to re-write history and make up a load of claptrap about last season to fit his agenda!

 

The wins we got last season were all lucky and the wins everyone else got weren''t?  And to think the OP is SUPPOSED to be a Norwich fan!

 

[:@]

[Zak Van Burger 0]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]If Manchester City were not on the beach, please explain to me the 8 goal shift?[/quote]

 I refer you to yourself:[quote user="Matt Juler"]unfortunately there are too many on here who

just see in black and white [/quote]And suggest that you are advocating a black and white answer. [:|]

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]I fully understand what Matt is trying to say, but unfortunately there are too many on here who just see in black and white and can''t get over this highest position in 20 odd years rubbish that completely papers over the cracks of what was an abysmal second half of the season.

If Manchester City were not on the beach, please explain to me the 8 goal shift?
[/quote]

 

Actually heard a few people say that unless we beat Man City, it would prove that they were on the beach...... what a ridiculous argument,

We were just the better team on the day, as we were against United and Arsenal etc.....

 

By your logic though, we should be beating Liverpool, United and Arsenal etc at the end of this season as they should be on the beach (if they have nothing to play for), if we don''t beat this, it proves Man City weren''t on the beach last season.

 

 

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]I fully understand what Matt is trying to say, but unfortunately there are too many on here who just see in black and white and can''t get over this highest position in 20 odd years rubbish that completely papers over the cracks of what was an abysmal second half of the season.If Manchester City were not on the beach, please explain to me the 8 goal shift?[/quote]They had the beach last year, it was our turn this year.[:D]

[lappinitup 629]

I find it sad that people seek excuses for games we won. Seems a strange way of "supporting" your club.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="TCCANARY"]

 

Saturdays result is more of a myth because we don''t lose 7-0 every week therefore taking that result and the others as a measurement is folly, the season is what counts, this season we have gained some points and lost some points, we''ve scored goals and conceded goals so that way we are going forward although maybe some weeks we might be going sideways. If we take into account the games we played and gained points then you can see that there are positives and negatives in every situation and what we must do is not isolate the bad or the good and treat them as the norm, we are living in extraordinary times and we must not treat that as being ordinary. If you narrow it down you be able to wake up and smell the coffee thats hiding the wood from the trees. Its important that we apportion blame when and where its applicable and just because you''re a good training ground coach does not mean that you''re not a nice person, nice managers do not win things except when they do like when Ken Brown won the Milk Cup, who''s to say that come 5 o''clock on Saturday when we haven''t got any points because we kick off late that there will be panic and the players will cross the white line and immediately lose te ability that they displayed in other games. If its at all possible to turn things around then maybe we should get the bloke from the Waltzers on Yarmouth pleasure beach as he''s got the experience.

I hope you all see now that although we all seek the same thing it''s not easy finding simple solutions to complicated problems and until we discover the magic bullet the toothpaste will not go back in the tube.

 

[/quote]

 

The eight goal shift is a myth, now a days most people do the continental style 12 hour shift.

 

 

[Matt Juler 148]

Don''t get me wrong, I very much enjoyed us beating Man City last season and I watched the highlights back a good few times, but whatever way you look at it that performance was not consistent with the vast majority of matches during 2013.  Maybe Chris Hughton had a tactical master plan (called plan A I''d imagine) that worked for once, but my money is more on Man City not really giving a toss (especially as they''d not regained the league and just lost their manager).

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]Don''t get me wrong, I very much enjoyed us beating Man City last season and I watched the highlights back a good few times, but whatever way you look at it that performance was not consistent with the vast majority of matches during 2013.  Maybe Chris Hughton had a tactical master plan (called plan A I''d imagine) that worked for once, but my money is more on Man City not really giving a toss (especially as they''d not regained the league and just lost their manager).
[/quote]

 

Well if you''d watched the highlights back so many times you would have noticed that every time a Man City player was near any of ours they were reminded that they hadn''t won the league and that they didn''t have a manager, you could see the ability drain from thier bodies as the crushing realisation was bought home to them, at one stage I saw at least two of them brush away a tear, this tactic was devised and worked on all week at Colney so credit where its due.

 

 

[Juggy 0]

We finished 11th last season, end of.

We weren''t the only team to finish the season with one or two games against people who had nothing to play for, many or even most teams did.

In fact, pretty much every team on the last game of the season had nothing to play for apart from a little bit of league position cash.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Myth is clearly the wrong phrase but I agree with the basic point that the 11th place finish gives a misleading impression of our season.

I also agree that in particular the Man City result was mainly down to them not giving a toss. the same can be said to a a degree about west brom but then they were pretty poor for most of the second half of last season and i''d fancy us to beat them at home again this season. Same was not true of Man City and so it transpired.

The fact is those 6 points at the death, coupled with a massively tight league led to us shooting up about 5 or 6 places and put a flattering gloss on our season. In our first season in the premier league were we the 12th best team. I would say yes we were and our finishing position reflected the season we had. Last season were we honestly the 11th best team in that league - I struggle with that concept to be honest. For most of the season we stunk the place out and I suspect fans of quite a lot of teams would say we were the worst side to visit their ground.

[Jack Flash 13]

I''m all for myths when they earn you another £4M quid.