11th Position Myth

[Matt Morriss 69]

Had just about enough now of the Hughton apologists and the drum banging of we finished 11th last season.

Its time to wake up and smell the coffee. The 7-0 thrashing should be proof enough now that last seasons 2-3 win at the Etihad, the 4-0 v West Brom, and the 11th place position were a false end to the season.

Man City had no manager and were already on the beach, this was clear right from the first whistle and anyone with half a brain of football knowledge would have recognised that so people stop banging on about the win, it was meaningless, fortuitous as it was at the time.

Same with West Brom, they had nothing to play for either and it showed. This is the only reason we won those matches, nothing to do with Hughton.

We had a lucky run in, simple as that. Wigan had to play Arsenal and Villa in their last two games. You couldnt get two harder games. Arsenal were battling for 4th and Villa were fighting for their lives. Had we had to play them and Wigan had our fixtures we would have lost both.

We were lucky to finish 11th and our effective position based on the seasons results was 18th/17th. It was pure luck of the fixtures that got us to 11th and ''higher than the messiah Lambert''.

The fact is nothing has improved since the 10 game unbeaten run. Its been absolutely dire since that point. What are the stats now? 6 wins in 31 games?

If the season started in January we would be bottom of the league with 9 odd games to go. The happy clappers at the Cardiff game made me sick. Oh we played well and we had 31 shots everyone said. Rubbish. We were the home side, this is how the pattern of play goes. The home side has the majority of play and the away side sits back and counter attacks. It just happened that Cardiff were particularly poor, hence the 31 shots, most of them incidentally were long shots from outside the box because Cardiff sat back so much. There were only a couple of top saves by Marshall and one unlucky moment were we should have scored. We should have won that match, we didnt because were not good enough. It wasnt bad luck or one of those days. Weve seen too many games like that, were we play well but dont score. Villa at home, Hull away. Cardiff very nearly played the away day tactics perfectly and could have had a counter attack goal had Ruddy not been on top form. That would have been 0-1 and job done.

Thats the problem now, we play well but we cant score and we dont win games, this is the problem and the problem for the management to solve, which they have failed to do.

[crabbycanary 2]

I think you find that 11th place wasn''t a myth

Also we lost 1-0 at Stoke last season, but won this season?

 

Funny old game Saint

[William Darby 0]

West Brom was arguably the best match we''ve played under Hughton.  Ironically enough you say it had nothing to do with Hughton.  The match had a feeling of, the players saying sod it, just go for it.

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]

I think you find that 11th place wasn''t a myth

Also we lost 1-0 at Stoke last season, but won this season?

 

Funny old game Saint

[/quote]

What? What relevance is the Stoke result, and did you actually read the post or just read the headline 11th position Myth.

[Yobocop 1,094]

How is it a myth? We finished 11th

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="John from the Tomorrow People"]West Brom was arguably the best match we''ve played under Hughton.  Ironically enough you say it had nothing to do with Hughton.  The match had a feeling of, the players saying sod it, just go for it.[/quote]

West Brom were on the beach. You conveniently choose to ignore this fact. The best weve played? of course it was, pretty easy when the other team doesnt turn up.

Love how people still bang on about those two performaces, against opposition who had nothing to play for and very clearly didnt turn up. Its laughable how people still ignore this fact and your proving my point.

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="refjezdavies"]How is it a myth? We finished 11th[/quote]

Ok maybe myth isnt the right word then, does False explain my point better?

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"][quote user="refjezdavies"]How is it a myth? We finished 11th[/quote]

Ok maybe myth isnt the right word then, does False explain my point better?[/quote]

No because 11th is a fact.

[crabbycanary 2]

Ah, it''s ''False'' now OK, perhaps my reply might have been different if that was what you meant 

Then again, you might want to read your own post again.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"][quote user="John from the Tomorrow People"]West Brom was arguably the best match we''ve played under Hughton.  Ironically enough you say it had nothing to do with Hughton.  The match had a feeling of, the players saying sod it, just go for it.[/quote]

West Brom were on the beach. You conveniently choose to ignore this fact. The best weve played? of course it was, pretty easy when the other team doesnt turn up.

Love how people still bang on about those two performaces, against opposition who had nothing to play for and very clearly didnt turn up. Its laughable how people still ignore this fact and your proving my point.[/quote]

Laughable that beating West Brom and a good game is a fact.

''On the beach'' is a football cliche and just a BS opinion.

[KeelansGlove 0]

Have to agree history seems to hail last season as an unmitigated success despite the truth of the matter being very different.

Very lucky escape that I cannot see being repeated this season.

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"][quote user="John from the Tomorrow People"]West Brom was arguably the best match we''ve played under Hughton.  Ironically enough you say it had nothing to do with Hughton.  The match had a feeling of, the players saying sod it, just go for it.[/quote]

West Brom were on the beach. You conveniently choose to ignore this fact. The best weve played? of course it was, pretty easy when the other team doesnt turn up.

Love how people still bang on about those two performaces, against opposition who had nothing to play for and very clearly didnt turn up. Its laughable how people still ignore this fact and your proving my point.[/quote]I think you need a dictionary to check the definition of words.Apart from the "myth" definition that has already been discussed, it''s not a "fact" that you say West Brom were "on the beach". Forgetting the issue that I assume you''re using "on the beach" is a metaphor, (i.e. it would be hard for the players to be simultaneously on a beach, while playing a game of football at Carrow Road), it is also you opinion that West Brom were on this metaphorical beach. This is not a fact.Getting back to your OP. 11th is now irreverent. I''m more interested in the next run of the results, not the past. Before Man City I thought Hughton could turn it around. I now think differently.All this guff of stats, and past results are now as relevant as the location of this beach footballers go to towards the end of seasons.

[Zak Van Burger 0]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]We had a lucky run in, simple as that. Wigan had to play Arsenal and Villa in their last two games. You couldnt get two harder games. Arsenal were battling for 4th and Villa were fighting for their lives. Had we had to play them and Wigan had our fixtures we would have lost both.[/quote]

By the same logic we have just played Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal in quick succession all teams who are currently battling for the Premier League title. You are happy to make excuses for Wigan failing to score points because they had a couple of "hard matches" but Hughton must be villified when we fail to pick up points in even harder matches. I find this approach baffling.....Now to facts:We did finish 11th it is not a myth.Villa were not fighting for their lives when they played Wigan they were already safe and Wigan were already down.Just like Wigan we played all teams in the division twice, once at home once away.All in all a pretty desperate attempt IMO obviously.

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]

Ah, it''s ''False'' now OK, perhaps my reply might have been different if that was what you meant 

Then again, you might want to read your own post again.

[/quote]

Surely you get the point im making tho rather than just playing Devils advocate?

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"][quote user="John from the Tomorrow People"]West Brom was arguably the best match we''ve played under Hughton.  Ironically enough you say it had nothing to do with Hughton.  The match had a feeling of, the players saying sod it, just go for it.[/quote]

West Brom were on the beach. You conveniently choose to ignore this fact. The best weve played? of course it was, pretty easy when the other team doesnt turn up.

Love how people still bang on about those two performaces, against opposition who had nothing to play for and very clearly didnt turn up. Its laughable how people still ignore this fact and your proving my point.[/quote]I think you need a dictionary to check the definition of words.Apart from the "myth" definition that has already been discussed, it''s not a "fact" that you say West Brom were "on the beach". Forgetting the issue that I assume you''re using "on the beach" is a metaphor, (i.e. it would be hard for the players to be simultaneously on a beach, while playing a game of football at Carrow Road), it is also you opinion that West Brom were on this metaphorical beach. This is not a fact.Getting back to your OP. 11th is now irreverent. I''m more interested in the next run of the results, not the past. Before Man City I thought Hughton could turn it around. I now think differently.All this guff of stats, and past results are now as relevant as the location of this beach footballers go to towards the end of seasons.[/quote]Sorry for the poor spell checking..... irreverent = irrelevant. *** EDIT BUTTON! ***

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="Davros from Lowestoft"][quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]We had a lucky run in, simple as that. Wigan had to play Arsenal and Villa in their last two games. You couldnt get two harder games. Arsenal were battling for 4th and Villa were fighting for their lives. Had we had to play them and Wigan had our fixtures we would have lost both.[/quote]

By the same logic we have just played Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal in quick succession all teams who are currently battling for the Premier League title. You are happy to make excuses for Wigan failing to score points because they had a couple of "hard matches" but Hughton must be villified when we fail to pick up points in even harder matches. I find this approach baffling.....Now to facts:We did finish 11th it is not a myth.Villa were not fighting for their lives when they played Wigan they were already safe and Wigan were already down.Just like Wigan we played all teams in the division twice, once at home once away.All in all a pretty desperate attempt IMO obviously.[/quote]

Desperate attempt at what? At trying to convince the Hughton apologists that were in trouble? Thats obvious mate.

The point im making is had we had to play Arsenal and Villa in the last two games things would have been very very different. Are you disputing that or are you saying we would have still finished 11th had we had Wigans fixtures?

Point is, as a previous poster has said, we had a very lucky escape last season and it is this end to the season that seems to be saving Chris Hughton at the moment, because apart from that, nothing has changed and were still dire.

We win two games against teams that had nothing to play for, finish 11th, and this is what people cling on to.

[Barry Brockes 145]

And at half-time in the Wigan v Swansea game when Wigan were leading 1-0 we had two matches left to play and were favourites to fill the third relegation spot. Fortunately Swansea came out in the second half apparently having had a rocket inserted where it did some good and turned it round but it certainly is very relevant that at 8.45 on that evening we were favourites to be relegated. It helps to balance the ''we finished eleventh'' side of the coin.    

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Davros from Lowestoft"][quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]We had a lucky run in, simple as that. Wigan had to play Arsenal and Villa in their last two games. You couldnt get two harder games. Arsenal were battling for 4th and Villa were fighting for their lives. Had we had to play them and Wigan had our fixtures we would have lost both.[/quote]



By the same logic we have just played Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal in quick succession all teams who are currently battling for the Premier League title. You are happy to make excuses for Wigan failing to score points because they had a couple of "hard matches" but Hughton must be villified when we fail to pick up points in even harder matches. I find this approach baffling.....

Now to facts:

We did finish 11th it is not a myth.
Villa were not fighting for their lives when they played Wigan they were already safe and Wigan were already down.
Just like Wigan we played all teams in the division twice, once at home once away.

All in all a pretty desperate attempt IMO obviously.

[/quote]

 

[Y]

[Making Plans 936]

A bit of perspective and balance.11th was extremely flattering last season & covered up a lot of cracks - especially for those that can''t see the wood for the trees.Likewise, our current position of 18th is probably not a true indication of our potential finishing position this season, although unless something changes quickly it easily could be.Taking everything into account over last season & so far this season, our true position is probably no better than 16th and no worse than 17th.The most worrying fact is that despite a wealth of new talent not a lot has changed and week in, week out we still look like relegation candidates.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

[quote user="Barry Brockes"]And at half-time in the Wigan v Swansea game when Wigan were leading 1-0 we had two matches left to play and were favourites to fill the third relegation spot. Fortunately Swansea came out in the second half apparently having had a rocket inserted where it did some good and turned it round but it certainly is very relevant that at 8.45 on that evening we were favourites to be relegated. It helps to balance the ''we finished eleventh'' side of the coin.    [/quote]

 

Swansea were just as much on the beach by that point as were WBA and Man City.  But obviously that''s ignored by the OP because it''s inconvenient for his argument.

The truth is that Wigan had a lead against a team with nothing to play for, but they cocked it up because they were rubbish and let Swansea back into the game.  That''s why they were relegated.  We took a lead against WBA and went on to thrash them. 

 

This line of argument really amounts to saying that if you exclude results where City played well and/or the opposition were below par, then on the remaining results City would be lower down the table.  I don''t know what that proves.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"][quote user="Davros from Lowestoft"][quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]We had a lucky run in, simple as that. Wigan had to play Arsenal and Villa in their last two games. You couldnt get two harder games. Arsenal were battling for 4th and Villa were fighting for their lives. Had we had to play them and Wigan had our fixtures we would have lost both.[/quote]



By the same logic we have just played Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal in quick succession all teams who are currently battling for the Premier League title. You are happy to make excuses for Wigan failing to score points because they had a couple of "hard matches" but Hughton must be villified when we fail to pick up points in even harder matches. I find this approach baffling.....

Now to facts:

We did finish 11th it is not a myth.
Villa were not fighting for their lives when they played Wigan they were already safe and Wigan were already down.
Just like Wigan we played all teams in the division twice, once at home once away.

All in all a pretty desperate attempt IMO obviously.

[/quote] Desperate attempt at what? At trying to convince the Hughton apologists that were in trouble? Thats obvious mate. The point im making is had we had to play Arsenal and Villa in the last two games things would have been very very different. Are you disputing that or are you saying we would have still finished 11th had we had Wigans fixtures? Point is, as a previous poster has said, we had a very lucky escape last season and it is this end to the season that seems to be saving Chris Hughton at the moment, because apart from that, nothing has changed and were still dire. We win two games against teams that had nothing to play for, finish 11th, and this is what people cling on to.[/quote]

 

If we''d played Arsenal & Villa in the last 2 games then that would mean we''d have played them 3 times!

 

We played and beat Man U when they were on an excellent run of form, so what happened there?  Within the space of a fortnight we beat an Arsenal side who had won their previous 2 games by 3 goals to 1 and a Spurs side who had won 6 of their last 10, drawn 3 and lost only 1!  So what happened here?  Surely someone must have been at Clacton on Sea or something of the players rose up as one and picked some random games part way through the season to revolt and go against the manager or something.  Surely, there must have been something, some reason why we won, something other than Hughton????

 

If, we''d played the top 6, 5 times last season, we would have got relegated!  Oh no, let''s all rush and lobby the the Premier League, the FA, whoever and see if they can retrospectively relegate us because we didn''t deserve to stay up!

[crabbycanary 2]

That''s right ICF, teams that were rubbish last season got relegated, that''s what some people are not taking on board. Teams that did better than that finished, either 17th of higher (some as high as 11th)

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,017]

Huckerbys Boots - I think you will find that finishing 11th is a fact not a myth. I think you will also find that the league position is based on the number of points a team accrues over 38 games rather than a personal selection of one or two results that suits your arguement. Not defending Chris Hughton just sick of twonks like you spouting absolute bollocks.....

[Syteanric 1]

Lets Pee on the bonfire shall we??

if we ha''d lost our last 2 we still would have stayed up...

All irrelavent now.

[Aggy 747]

It is absolutely pointless plucking out 2 games and saying "we were lucky because they had nothing to play for" or whatever. You can pull out any two fixtures at any point in the season and say something like that - "oh we played them when their star striker was injured, we would have lost if he was playing", or "we only won that game because we didn''t have as many players as them coming back from an international break, if we had played them any other time of the year they would have thrashed us", or whatever.

It''s pointless. Every game you play has got "outside" factors which can be taken into account. Injuries, fatigue, fixture pile up, confidence, stage of the season, international breaks, managers resting players for upcoming fixtures/Euro games etc.

Every bottom half team last season would have played some games against opposition who were "weakened" because of one of those things - not having anything to play for, injuries etc. Just because ours were (perhaps) the last 2 games doesn''t mean we were "lucky".

[Syteanric 1]

I also point out that a season is over 38 games

over that 38 game period we picked up enough points to be the 11th best side in the league....

if you look back in a history book in 20 years it will say Norwich finished 11th.. it wont say anyone was "on the bach" or it was a "false finish".

accept it.

[SwindonCanary 455]

People keep stating that West Brom & Man City were on the beach, were they the only two teams in this state over the last couple of weekends, it''s truly a myth if you believe this to be true. 

[Matt Morriss 69]

The point im trying to make is that people are clinging onto the 10 game run and the 11th place finish like that is a true marker of where were at and Hughtons appraisal should be judged on that and that alone.

The 10 game run was great, but much like the Roeder era, where we had a very similar 10 game or so run, things went sour after that and never got better. Likewise the 2 last games and 11th was great, but is not a true reflection of where were at now, nor should it be used when judging whether Hughton should be sacked or not!!!

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]Huckerbys Boots - I think you will find that finishing 11th is a fact not a myth. I think you will also find that the league position is based on the number of points a team accrues over 38 games rather than a personal selection of one or two results that suits your arguement. Not defending Chris Hughton just sick of twonks like you spouting absolute bollocks.....[/quote]

Pathetic and childish name calling.

This board is for healthy debate and opinion. You disagree? then retort, dont act like its a school playground.

[Matt Morriss 69]

This post proves my point cause people still bang on about the 10 game run and the last 2 games like they mean something now and should be used to judge Hughton.