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MancCanary

A club like us should be playing a pressing game - Agree or Disagree?

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I think to be successful in this league, a club with our level of playing talent has to have players busting a gut for every pass and tackle, putting pressure on the opposition EVERYWHERE. I''ve only seen this in fits and starts under Hughton - why? Against Cardiff it was there - the players looked like they wanted to win so much.. but then they don''t put the same effort in against Utd & City. This is the most confusing thing under Hughton - the inconsistencies. It kind of undermines the arguments both for and against him - we criticise him for playing too defensive - then we get some very attacking performances. Then it''s suddenly back to playing like we''re in a training game. I just think the best way to ensure that we stay in this league is for the effort to increase, then it makes up for the lack of quality. Snodgrass, for all his errors this season personifies this effort. If only they all put as much in as him.

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It has, along with the urgency to counter, been missing this season.

We beat Arsenal and Man Utd at home by playing high pressing games.

We haven''t seen that yet this season, but I guess it''s a confidence thing too. A few good results and we could look a very different side.

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If by pressing you mean "quickly on to opponents with the ball", in their face, or whatever, I agree. That was how we beat Stoke, - we never let them settle and play the game that they wanted. Our defenders seem to hand back and try to shadow attackers. It doesn''t work, as they play the game which they want with time allowed by us.

 

If you constantly pressing forward to score, which we have not achieved much this season, then I disagree. We were all out attack under Lambert in the lower divisions, on the principle that we shall concede but aim to score than we let in. I very much doubt if this will succeed in the Premiership, and certainly with our present defenders. EPL teams are too quick and good at counter-attack , as we saw against Chelsea and Arsenal when we tried to claw our way back.

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[quote user="Salopian"]

If by pressing you mean "quickly on to opponents with the ball", in their face, or whatever, I agree. That was how we beat Stoke, - we never let them settle and play the game that they wanted. Our defenders seem to hand back and try to shadow attackers. It doesn''t work, as they play the game which they want with time allowed by us.

 

If you constantly pressing forward to score, which we have not achieved much this season, then I disagree. We were all out attack under Lambert in the lower divisions, on the principle that we shall concede but aim to score than we let in. I very much doubt if this will succeed in the Premiership, and certainly with our present defenders. EPL teams are too quick and good at counter-attack , as we saw against Chelsea and Arsenal when we tried to claw our way back.

[/quote]

Agreed. And yes I meant the former, pressing on to opponents with the ball - 2 players closing down the opposition when they''ve got the ball, etc. It''s surely an essential tactic if we lack the skill and ability of top teams. We used to bully teams into conceding possession, now we''re pushovers.

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This is one of my biggest pet hates with this current set up, we stand of players instead if pressing to get the ball back I watched Southampton the other week and they were all in the face of the opposition pushing then back in to their own corner flag. We don''t do this and it needs to change

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What i don''t understand is why we''ve done it in some games but not in others. We definitely did it at Stoke. We did it last season at home to Man U and Arsenal. But this season at Spurs and Man City we''ve just backed off. At the former I am convinced we were implementing some form of zonal marking system because they sure as hell were not marking any of their players. All of our defenders and midfielders just seemed to be obsessed with covering a patch of ground rather than actually pressing the man with the ball and forcing them back. If you stand off the quality of players Spurs and Man City have then you will get beaten. Its interesting that since strolling past us a few weeks ago Spurs have been unconvincing at home against teams who have not let them have it all their own way.

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I think that ''the pressing game'' against the likes of Cardiff, Stoke and southampton is a good idea, but against man u, arsenal , man city etc we could too easily be outpassed and out manouvered by what are (and i hate to say it) better/faster players than we have. I was at the emirates and for a while we did press, but eventually were ''unlocked'' and suffered two more goals to give the scoreline a flattering look. Pressing is a valid tactic but is not a cure-all. In certain games the old Kevin Keegan/PL we''ll score more than you attitude will work, but in others the more cautious approach will succeed. Finally we must accept that sometimes no matter how you play, you will lose. I am not a ''little old naaaarich'', man i want them to win always but accept that they will not. What we must do is compete, its the managers/captains job to decide the manner that we achieve this, whether by pressing , attacking or by allowing the opposition possession until we counter. None of which is easy in such a competitive league.

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Completely agree. You have to address the gap in quality through industry and hard work. You may be more talented than us, but are you more hard-working? Its how we''ve beaten most teams, not allowing them to settle, not providing the platform for these players to do their thing. Manchested City was awful, we seemed to back off and give them 2m space at all time. I think the fear is being sucked out of position and leaving space - but if you''re going to give them space anyway whats the point? Their wide players were never pressurised, so they could take all the time in the world to pick and execute the right pass. That is just playing to the strengths of these world-class players. Make them play badly by not givig them time or space, and make them uncomfortable. Worked really well against Arsenal last season until the ref stepped in. We had them beat and made them look awful. Really cannot understand why Hughton thinks 11 men behind the ball will work when theyre given the space to just dance around us

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It''s a tactic that I like to see used. You obviously have to be very fit to do it successfully. I though one of the best examples was Spurs at home last season, but we just seemed to run out of steam about 70 mins in, but against a very good side, it was very effective.

It would seem folly to stand off the very best teams, as they very seldom make mistakes. You do need them to hurry a pass, or make a pass they didn''t intend on making.

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Glad everyone agrees. I just see it as a basic, for clubs like us. And it doesn''t mean we can''t play good football too, it just means we upset the other team - just like we did in the examples people have given in this thread. It also gets the crowd going, gets adrenalin flowing, and brings positivity, in my eyes.

Maybe we don''t as much fitness training as we used to?

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I was thinking exactly that about the zonal marking in midfield. Yes, if you press you run the risk of losing man on man situations and then being out of position, but I lost count of the number of times one person was trying to cover a 5 or 10 meter square patch of pitch chasing the ball around the triangle.

I can only assume CH values a set formation where no player is found out of position but cant get close to the ball. Teams of quality will just pass their way through and it is just as tiring for the player as hounding the opposition constantly.

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All our best performances under Hughton and Lambert have been when we''ve pressed high and/or quickly. And countered quickly.

This season we''ve seen little sign of either.

We didn''t score against Cardiff because about 90% of our chances came from slow build up. Doesn''t matter who you''re playing, and team with time to organise the defence is going to find it easy to defend. Watch Barcelona, they play it about without too much urgency, but when they score its when they turn on the pace and play a few quick decisive balls. Its so hard to score when you''re not doing that.

We''ve got players who are fit enough and capable enough to press all over the pitch all game. We''ve got pretty good counter attacking players. What we don''t need is Snodgrass and Martin taking twenty touches each before crossing the ball to an empty part of the penalty area.

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GP I compleatly agree with you however I don''t think the players are fit enough this season, we used to fight till the 90th minuet as we has great fitness but now the players seem tierd after 79th minuet

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Ah, the English love of running around! It never ceases to amaze me. Just so I can clarify things here, what kind of pressing are we talking about? Reclaiming possession pressing? shape pressing? fake pressing? Is defensive shape important? Should we ignore shape in favour of pressing? 

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Phillip J Fry.

You do realise the World Cup holders, and one of the best club teams for the past few years game style focuses on pressing?

Pressing isn''t an English thing. Effort with little technical ability is. But Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Alves all press all game and have plenty of technical ability.

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Also, may I add that anyone who thinks we beat Man Utd. and Arsenal last season through an agressive pressing system was watching a different game from me. Look at the average positions of our player on whoscored. Look how deep they are, how they sit in almost perfect banks of four. Look at the amount of shots we conceded. 14 in both games. The best pressing teams in the league (Spurs and Southampton) concede around 5 less a game. Those games were all about the triumph of defensive shape, how you can not press, not have the ball but make it difficult for the opposition to pass through you and have shots because of your shape.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]Phillip J Fry.

You do realise the World Cup holders, and one of the best club teams for the past few years game style focuses on pressing?

Pressing isn''t an English thing. Effort with little technical ability is. But Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Alves all press all game and have plenty of technical ability.[/quote]
Technically, you could argue that every team has played a variation of pressing since the 60''s and that all Barca did was take it to a more agressive level.
But you''ve also pointed out a flaw with pressing. Barcelona are able to press so aggressively because they dominate the ball. If you average 80% posession, you are able to maintain energy level to a reasonably high standered. This means as soon as you lose the ball that your players have enough energy to close down aggressively. Barca were only able to maintain such high standards of pressing due to their ability on the ball, something most teams can;t hope to match. 
Barcelona also exposed the other flaw in pressing, mainly that agressive pressing can cause major problems with your defensive shape, if you  come across a team that is able to maneuver the ball around your pressing, then there are huge gaps to exploit because you were too busy running and not caring about your defensive shape.
It''s not an either or thing, as some fans seem to think. You need to find the balance, to press within your shape. I''m surprised that people are criticizing Hughton for this, from what I''ve seen he''s very adept at coaching the press within shape. Hodgson is still better though.

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[quote user="Phillip J Fry"][quote user="Gingerpele"]Phillip J Fry.

You do realise the World Cup holders, and one of the best club teams for the past few years game style focuses on pressing?

Pressing isn''t an English thing. Effort with little technical ability is. But Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Alves all press all game and have plenty of technical ability.[/quote]
Technically, you could argue that every team has played a variation of pressing since the 60''s and that all Barca did was take it to a more agressive level.
But you''ve also pointed out a flaw with pressing. Barcelona are able to press so aggressively because they dominate the ball. If you average 80% posession, you are able to maintain energy level to a reasonably high standered. This means as soon as you lose the ball that your players have enough energy to close down aggressively. Barca were only able to maintain such high standards of pressing due to their ability on the ball, something most teams can;t hope to match. 
Barcelona also exposed the other flaw in pressing, mainly that agressive pressing can cause major problems with your defensive shape, if you  come across a team that is able to maneuver the ball around your pressing, then there are huge gaps to exploit because you were too busy running and not caring about your defensive shape.
It''s not an either or thing, as some fans seem to think. You need to find the balance, to press within your shape. I''m surprised that people are criticizing Hughton for this, from what I''ve seen he''s very adept at coaching the press within shape. Hodgson is still better though.
[/quote]

You''re quite right. But we don''t seem to do *any* style of pressing at all these days, except in the odd game or two - ie Cardiff. You can substitute "pressing" for "effort" or "harassing" - I just mean at a basic level, we are not making it difficult for anyone at all.

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I think we did a good job of pressing at Stoke and at Arsenal.  The key to pressing is that you do it as a team, so the player with the ball has one of ours challenging, and other players are moving to challenge the players around that he could pass to, thus forcing him to either pass back or play a hopeful pass upfield whcih we have a good chance of intercepting.

 

At Arsenal we were undone by a superb move for their initial goal.  After we got over it, we had a long spell with plenty of the ball, before and after half-time, when we created chances, but weren''t able to take them (RVW was a key absence here).  After which they broke down field and scored with a clinical move.  When we got the goal back, they looked distinctly shaky for a spell and again we created chances but couldn''t take them, and Tettey was taken off (for injury I thought) after which they were able to score a couple of late goals.

 

But it is frustrating that in some games we just sit well back and concede possession until they''re well into our half.  Man City and Spurs being the worst examples.  If Spurs had the quality and desire that Man City showed, they could have scored as many goals.

 

Also as has been pointed out, you have to accept that pressing can leave you vulnerable if the other team are able to work their way around it, because you''re left with players out of position and/or high up the pitch.

 

The other thing that we need is desire to win the ball in midfield.  At Stoke we were great, winning lots of 50/50 balls and often nicking it away from their players in midfield.  The goal was a classic example, it wasn''t even a 50/50 chance when RVW competed for the header against 2 of their players, but his challenge led to the ball dropping to Pilks.  Whereas at Man City, all too often their players were able to shrug off a challenge from ours.

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Well bu**er me. And there was me thinking every team should be doing that! Oh well. I thought our lads could only do it for approximately 83 minutes per game. One word "fitness!!"

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