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Jim Smith

Hughton outers - when did you turn?

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I suspect that for most of us in the Hughton out camp the belief is borne more from watching him and us over the course of his reign and the general feel that he is not quite up to it but what were the particular moments for you when the doubts started to creep in and/or the realisation started to hit home. For me there are many but ones that particularly spring to mind are:

Reading (a) - first doubts emerge in my mind as i watch us going through the motions and playing out a bore draw against a woeful side who were there for the taking. Portrayed afterwards as a useful point which formed part of our unbeaten run (and in the context of what had gone before i can see why) but in reality it was a sign of what was to come in terms of approaches to away games against weaker teams.

WBA (a) - real alarm bells start to ring. Despite being in good form and playing well for the first 35 minutes we are hauled back by an unlucky goal just before half time. In the second half, one manager persists with his lone striker system and is reluctant to make changes. Clarke realises we are posing them absolutely no threat up front and playing with little ambition and takes off defensive players ending up with 3 strikers. His positivity is rewarded with 3 points, our unbeaten run ends and from that point the slide begins.

Wigan (a) - 6 pointed v a relegation rival. Second half we show zero ambition and seem determined to play for a point. We deservedly lose.

Despite this Hughton to his credit keeps us up. My attitude going into this season is that maybe the style of play was a means to an end and things will be different now he has been able to buy his own attacking players. I therefore resolve to give him a couple of months to see if there is any discernable difference in his approach:

Spurs (a) - oh dear. Up there with any of the shocking away displays from last season, in fact if anything worse as we back off, surrender space and possession and generally hand them the game on a plate. My resolve to give Hughton the benefit of the doubt has now gone.

Arsenal (a) - that Tettey substitution. Possibly the worst tactical substitution I have ever seen (after 20 minutes debate with Trollope and the i-pad) and further evidence of a manager who does not know how to change/influence/read games floundering for the right move knowing they are under increasing pressure.

Man City (a) - for the first time in 20 plus years I did not want to watch our game at all. I heard we were 4 nil down at half time and then heard the final score and was not in the slightest but surprised on either occasion.

I am sure there are many others. I am sure also that people will have incidents of Hughton''s genius to counter the above and demonstrate clearly why he is the man for the job but this is a thread for the misers amongst us to share our angst!

PS Interesting reading the Brum fan thread below and the reference to the Birmingham v Blackpool playoff games. i also watched that second leg at Blackpool expecting it to be a great game but thought Birmingham were completely clueless and had no idea how to win that game. Never came to mind before but the mention below has reminded me of it.

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Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.

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Wow, so you pick three of the hardest away games this season to pick holes.

Tbf you say you do give him credit for keeping us up. Do you want to comment on his tactics in beating certain teams, as it would balance the argument, that (sometimes) he get''s it very right

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[quote user="crabbycanary"]

Wow, so you pick three of the hardest away games this season to pick holes.

Tbf you say you do give him credit for keeping us up. Do you want to comment on his tactics in beating certain teams, as it would balance the argument, that (sometimes) he get''s it very right

[/quote]

Not really because the thread is for people who think Hughton should go and picking those defining moments when their views were formed/hardened. The clue is in the title. If you are not in the Hughton out camp then you don;t need to post on this thread.

For what its worth there are very few games where in my view Hughton''s has "got it very right." When you play the same system every week its bound to work sometimes. Man U and Arsenal at home are the obvious ones and credit to him there - two victories achieved in a controlled manner/style that Lambert would not have been able to achieve. I don;t have a problem with setting up like that at home against the bigger teams but the key in those games was that as well as set up as we did we also pressed them and regained possession higher up the pitch. My issues with Hughton have never been about how we set up tactically against the big sides (despite the opponants cited above my issue with those games is not the results or indeed the starting formations).

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[quote user="morty"]Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.[/quote]

Don''t join in the thread then Morty - simple. The thread is about when people started to doubt/run out of patience and is for people who think he should be sacked. Those moments are obviously inevitably going to be negative moments unless the 1-0 home win over Arsenal was the final straw for some of us!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"]Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.[/quote]

Don''t join in the thread then Morty - simple. The thread is about when people started to doubt/run out of patience and is for people who think he should be sacked. Those moments are obviously inevitably going to be negative moments unless the 1-0 home win over Arsenal was the final straw for some of us![/quote]Whatever, you have all gone way past boring. This all smacks of "Yes I know better as I knew he needed to go ages ago" You were all pretty quiet when we were winning games though, weren''t you?Fickle.

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Totally agree with Morty etc''s points here - I''m personally on the fence re Hughton after considered thought from the weekend, and for me West Ham at home is his big chance after let''s face it, a very tough run of games. But, it does make me laugh when the 10 game run or whatever is played down as ''a fluke'' yet when we get a definite unlucky loss or draw then it''s not unlucky at all and it is how it should be under Hughton! Some strange people on here...

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"]Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.[/quote]

Don''t join in the thread then Morty - simple. The thread is about when people started to doubt/run out of patience and is for people who think he should be sacked. Those moments are obviously inevitably going to be negative moments unless the 1-0 home win over Arsenal was the final straw for some of us![/quote]Whatever, you have all gone way past boring. This all smacks of "Yes I know better as I knew he needed to go ages ago" You were all pretty quiet when we were winning games though, weren''t you?Fickle.[/quote]

Not really. I''ve always expressed significant doubts about Hughton''s approach to games, even during the unbeaten run. I''m not saying i''m right or know better. He may not go. he may be kept on and prove me and various others completely wrong - you can quote this thread back at me if he does. If you think a thread is boring then its quite simple you don''t have to post on it or look at it again. Is that so difficult to get your head around?

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"]Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.[/quote]

Don''t join in the thread then Morty - simple. The thread is about when people started to doubt/run out of patience and is for people who think he should be sacked. Those moments are obviously inevitably going to be negative moments unless the 1-0 home win over Arsenal was the final straw for some of us![/quote]Whatever, you have all gone way past boring. This all smacks of "Yes I know better as I knew he needed to go ages ago" You were all pretty quiet when we were winning games though, weren''t you?Fickle.[/quote]

Not really. I''ve always expressed significant doubts about Hughton''s approach to games, even during the unbeaten run. I''m not saying i''m right or know better. He may not go. he may be kept on and prove me and various others completely wrong - you can quote this thread back at me if he does. If you think a thread is boring then its quite simple you don''t have to post on it or look at it again. Is that so difficult to get your head around?[/quote]Ah right, so you want to post your opinion, and have it followed by people agreeing with you and slapping your back and congratulating you for being clever and spotting Hughtons deficiencies before everybody else?Maybe blogging is for you.

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I suppose i must technically not be a Hughton ''outer'' yet. I had turned on saturday, as i said before on here, i not only wanted him sacked, i wanted his head on a plate and brought to me i was that embarrassed.

I have decided my personal opinion is that he deserves the West Ham game to rectify things.

It has been a bad week and results have been unacceptable, but we hammered Cardiff without reward and for 80 mins of both the Arsenal game and Chelsea games, we were playing well.

I don''t think it''s likely but neither do i think it''s beyond Hughton to turn it round still, but it has to start on Saturday, result irrespective of performance or my last grain of faith goes.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]I suppose i must technically not be a Hughton ''outer'' yet. I had turned on saturday, as i said before on here, i not only wanted him sacked, i wanted his head on a plate and brought to me i was that embarrassed.

I have decided my personal opinion is that he deserves the West Ham game to rectify things.

It has been a bad week and results have been unacceptable, but we hammered Cardiff without reward and for 80 mins of both the Arsenal game and Chelsea games, we were playing well.

I don''t think it''s likely but neither do i think it''s beyond Hughton to turn it round still, but it has to start on Saturday, result irrespective of performance or my last grain of faith goes.[/quote][Y]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"]Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.[/quote]

Don''t join in the thread then Morty - simple. The thread is about when people started to doubt/run out of patience and is for people who think he should be sacked. Those moments are obviously inevitably going to be negative moments unless the 1-0 home win over Arsenal was the final straw for some of us![/quote]Whatever, you have all gone way past boring. This all smacks of "Yes I know better as I knew he needed to go ages ago" You were all pretty quiet when we were winning games though, weren''t you?Fickle.[/quote]

Not really. I''ve always expressed significant doubts about Hughton''s approach to games, even during the unbeaten run. I''m not saying i''m right or know better. He may not go. he may be kept on and prove me and various others completely wrong - you can quote this thread back at me if he does. If you think a thread is boring then its quite simple you don''t have to post on it or look at it again. Is that so difficult to get your head around?[/quote]Ah right, so you want to post your opinion, and have it followed by people agreeing with you and slapping your back and congratulating you for being clever and spotting Hughtons deficiencies before everybody else?Maybe blogging is for you.[/quote]

No i''m interested in when/what the tipping point was for other people who feel the same way as I do about whether we should keep our manager.

If you disagree then fine, its all about opinions - you can go and start a different thread listing all of Hughton''s great tactical triumphs and games where you feel he has made positive changes that have won us points if you like.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"]Yay, another thread saying pretty much exactly the same as the 463 other "Hughton out" threads.If I could be bothered I would counter it with a thread detaling the times we won games, but I frankly can''t be.Do you people that want him out think that if you say it enough times it will happen?Sorry, I know everything isn''t sunshine and lollipops, but just picking on negatives is hardly a balanced view, or well rounded opinion.[/quote]

Don''t join in the thread then Morty - simple. The thread is about when people started to doubt/run out of patience and is for people who think he should be sacked. Those moments are obviously inevitably going to be negative moments unless the 1-0 home win over Arsenal was the final straw for some of us![/quote]Whatever, you have all gone way past boring. This all smacks of "Yes I know better as I knew he needed to go ages ago" You were all pretty quiet when we were winning games though, weren''t you?Fickle.[/quote]

Not really. I''ve always expressed significant doubts about Hughton''s approach to games, even during the unbeaten run. I''m not saying i''m right or know better. He may not go. he may be kept on and prove me and various others completely wrong - you can quote this thread back at me if he does. If you think a thread is boring then its quite simple you don''t have to post on it or look at it again. Is that so difficult to get your head around?[/quote]Ah right, so you want to post your opinion, and have it followed by people agreeing with you and slapping your back and congratulating you for being clever and spotting Hughtons deficiencies before everybody else?Maybe blogging is for you.[/quote]

No i''m interested in when/what the tipping point was for other people who feel the same way as I do about whether we should keep our manager.

If you disagree then fine, its all about opinions - you can go and start a different thread listing all of Hughton''s great tactical triumphs and games where you feel he has made positive changes that have won us points if you like.[/quote]Like I said, I can''t be bothered.I almost want him out myself if it would stop some of you peoples incessant whining.

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As a confirmed Hughton In-er , Morty, I really don''t see why you are posting on this thread. The clue is in the title.....

I suppose I''d put myself largely in the same category as Jimmy Smith above . As a fair minded-decent sort of chap, I guess I''d like to give Hughton one more chance to get things right v Wet Spam. But do I think , in my heart of hearts, it''ll hapen. Well, frankly , No.

I''m, I suppose, 95% a Hughton out-er currently. Anything less than a convincing performance and 3 pts on Sat evening and the remaining 5% will fall neatly into place.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]As a confirmed Hughton In-er , Morty, I really don''t see why you are posting on this thread. The clue is in the title.....

I suppose I''d put myself largely in the same category as Jimmy Smith above . As a fair minded-decent sort of chap, I guess I''d like to give Hughton one more chance to get things right v Wet Spam. But do I think , in my heart of hearts, it''ll hapen. Well, frankly , No.

I''m, I suppose, 95% a Hughton out-er currently. Anything less than a convincing performance and 3 pts on Sat evening and the remaining 5% will fall neatly into place.[/quote]

Fair enough. I personally want him gone regardless of whether we beat West Ham because i am not sure a home win over a mediocre side changes much in terms of my concerns about his long term ability to take us forward.

That said if he is still here on Saturday i obviously hope we win. I also obviously hope that if he is to remain Hughton follows it up with a decent run of positive team selections, performances, substitutions and results that prove me to admit i was wrong and change my view.

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Oddly, for me it was Cardiff confirming what I''d read about the previous eight games. I saw five games last season (all of them wins) including the 1-0 against Arsenal. Which I thought was a perfect performance. Soak up pressure, score against the run of play, then defend brilliantly (restricting Arsenal to one decent chance in the whole game) with the odd counter-attack to relieve the pressure.That made me buy into the plausible notion that Hughton was trying to switch from Lambert''s gung-ho philosophy to a more grown-up style that would work better in the long run. But also that until he could strengthen the squad in the summer, to give himself better attacking options and more tactical flexibility, he was pretty much bound to use that cautious approach. But against Cardiff (and I knew we had all those shots) despite having the players to be more expansive and/or switch tactics there was no sign that Hughton had the intelligence/inclination/nous/courage/whatever to do so. So we ended up with one point instead of three, as we got none rather than one or three from Hull away and Villa at home. With the fear that if Hughton stays we will lose out on more crucial points that will mean the difference between relegation and survival.So IF there is a manager out there who is more tactically astute - who will squeeze more points out of certain games and particularly against our relegation rivals - then the Cardiff game turned me into a outer.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]As a confirmed Hughton In-er , Morty, I really don''t see why you are posting on this thread. The clue is in the title.....

I suppose I''d put myself largely in the same category as Jimmy Smith above . As a fair minded-decent sort of chap, I guess I''d like to give Hughton one more chance to get things right v Wet Spam. But do I think , in my heart of hearts, it''ll hapen. Well, frankly , No.

I''m, I suppose, 95% a Hughton out-er currently. Anything less than a convincing performance and 3 pts on Sat evening and the remaining 5% will fall neatly into place.[/quote]So the board just needs two threads, a Hughton in, and a Hughton out one, and we all just stay in our respective threads? Perhaps another thread for the undecideds?Yes, Jimmy Smiths stance is pretty much where mine is.I''m a Hughton "would really like him to turn it around as a change of manager rarely has immediate effect on a club, but not entirely sure he can"

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Your final paragraph shows what utter twaddle your first one is, Morty. There are plenty of things to debate here that are not just polarised into Hughton In or Hughton Out.

And, let''s not go down the tedious "changing manager does not work" road. It''s been done to death. And for every example you can quote where changing the manager has not been successful, I will quote you one where it has !

I guess of the more reasoned posters on here, this whole scenario has now morped from black/white into shades of grey anyway. Basically, I''d say that, you, Jim, Jimmy, myself etc are pretty much all of the same mindset these days, in that something has to DRASTICALLY change now. It''s merely a question of how that should be done.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Your final paragraph shows what utter twaddle your first one is, Morty. There are plenty of things to debate here that are not just polarised into Hughton In or Hughton Out.

And, let''s not go down the tedious "changing manager does not work" road. It''s been done to death. And for every example you can quote where changing the manager has not been successful, I will quote you one where it has !

I guess of the more reasoned posters on here, this whole scenario has now morped from black/white into shades of grey anyway. Basically, I''d say that, you, Jim, Jimmy, myself etc are pretty much all of the same mindset these days, in that something has to DRASTICALLY change now. It''s merely a question of how that should be done.[/quote]There really isn''t anything left to debate, its all about whether or not the players turn up on Saturday.If they don''t, he''s gone, and there will be no complaints.He either turns it around, starting Saturday, or he has to go, regardless of whether you think "in" or "out" his situation will be untenable after a loss on Saturday.Slapping each other on the back and saying"I told you so, I knew after X game" really is all just hindsight.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Oddly, for me it was Cardiff confirming what I''d read about the previous eight games. I saw five games last season (all of them wins) including the 1-0 against Arsenal. Which I thought was a perfect performance. Soak up pressure, score against the run of play, then defend brilliantly (restricting Arsenal to one decent chance in the whole game) with the odd counter-attack to relieve the pressure.That made me buy into the plausible notion that Hughton was trying to switch from Lambert''s gung-ho philosophy to a more grown-up style that would work better in the long run. But also that until he could strengthen the squad in the summer, to give himself better attacking options and more tactical flexibility, he was pretty much bound to use that cautious approach. But against Cardiff (and I knew we had all those shots) despite having the players to be more expansive and/or switch tactics there was no sign that Hughton had the intelligence/inclination/nous/courage/whatever to do so. So we ended up with one point instead of three, as we got none rather than one or three from Hull away and Villa at home. With the fear that if Hughton stays we will lose out on more crucial points that will mean the difference between relegation and survival.So IF there is a manager out there who is more tactically astute - who will squeeze more points out of certain games and particularly against our relegation rivals - then the Cardiff game turned me into a outer.[/quote]

Purple - you have expressed how I feel about Hughton''s management perfectly in this post.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Your final paragraph shows what utter twaddle your first one is, Morty. There are plenty of things to debate here that are not just polarised into Hughton In or Hughton Out.

And, let''s not go down the tedious "changing manager does not work" road. It''s been done to death. And for every example you can quote where changing the manager has not been successful, I will quote you one where it has !

I guess of the more reasoned posters on here, this whole scenario has now morped from black/white into shades of grey anyway. Basically, I''d say that, you, Jim, Jimmy, myself etc are pretty much all of the same mindset these days, in that something has to DRASTICALLY change now. It''s merely a question of how that should be done.[/quote]There really isn''t anything left to debate, its all about whether or not the players turn up on Saturday.If they don''t, he''s gone, and there will be no complaints.He either turns it around, starting Saturday, or he has to go, regardless of whether you think "in" or "out" his situation will be untenable after a loss on Saturday.Slapping each other on the back and saying"I told you so, I knew after X game" really is all just hindsight.[/quote]

I''m not trying to pat myself on the back. i take no pleasure from the situation we are in. We are all Norwich fans and obviously want the team to do as well as possible. The point of this thread was for people who acknowledge they are in the Hughton out camp to discuss what was for them the tipping point. Its not another thread about whether Hughton should stay or go, there are plenty of other threads on that. For some people it will have been a recent game/event/realisation whereas others will have harboured doubts about him or wanted him out for some time. I personally have had doubts throughout but was giving him the benefit of the doubt until events this season (and especially the spurs game) led me to believe he is not capable of changing his approach in the manner that i believe he needs to.

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Hmm, I wish I shared your clarity of vision and confidence on this Morty !

To my mind there IS a debate, and it largely hinges on what happens on Sat evening if the performance is as dire and unimpressive as ever, but we manage to scrape a one -nil win. Or , conversely, if we play superbly, but as a result of some dodgy offside decision or similar, only get a draw.

I''m sure you''ll concede that these scenarios are not completely beyond the realms of possibility.

What would your take be then ?

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Hmm, I wish I shared your clarity of vision and confidence on this Morty !

To my mind there IS a debate, and it largely hinges on what happens on Sat evening if the performance is as dire and unimpressive as ever, but we manage to scrape a one -nil win. Or , conversely, if we play superbly, but as a result of some dodgy offside decision or similar, only get a draw.

I''m sure you''ll concede that these scenarios are not completely beyond the realms of possibility.

What would your take be then ?[/quote]I think nothing less than a win and he''ll go.Whether or not he walks or is sacked, his position will be untenable.Saturday is a chance for the players to decide Chris Hughton''s destiny, we shall see if they are truly behind him or not, or if he has listened to their (and our) concerns about tactics, and has changed things for the better.It all hinges on Saturday for me, and I suspect the board too.

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Well, for the record, I tend to agree with you. For me, it''s all about results and points now.

But, there''s just this nagging little doubt somewhere in the darker recesses of my mind that the board may just be looking for an excuse to put off the decision.

You raise another important debating point too. If we do not win, do you think he will walk, or wait to be fired?

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Well, for the record, I tend to agree with you. For me, it''s all about results and points now.

But, there''s just this nagging little doubt somewhere in the darker recesses of my mind that the board may just be looking for an excuse to put off the decision.

You raise another important debating point too. If we do not win, do you think he will walk, or wait to be fired?[/quote]Why on earth would the board be looking to put off the decision?Not quite sure where you are coming from on this.Its looking like pretty much everyone could be fit for Saturday, this is a chance for players and manager alike to show they are up for the fight, I honestly think a poor show will result in him being sacked.

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I know, I know, Morty. As I say, it''s only a slight nagging doubt, but it would not be the first time that our board (and many others) have failed to act decisively and quickly in the face of such overwhelming evidence.

And there are several people on this board who are, and no doubt will be, advocating more time. "Holding our nerve" etc.

But perhaps I''m being paranoid. I predict a "contract terminated by mutual consent " fudge, btw.....

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