Will Hughton-outers concede...

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="hogesar"]I love being a fence-sitter. Well, ignoring the wind chill at the moment.

I can see why, for example, City 1st wants Hughton out. Some of it is even reasonable.

I can also see why, others like LDC, don''t want Hughton to leave. Perhaps even a little bit more of this one is reasonable.

IF, City1st and co are right about Hughton (tactical ineptitude etc) then we will see that over the next 3-5 games. And we will be in a relegation fight till the end of the season even if Hughton isn''t here post those 5 games.

If LDC and co are right, we''ll see a much more confident side at Newcastle. We might not win, but we will match them for large parts of the game. We''ll win at home to Palace (but then again, i could win at home to Palace) and everything will start looking much more positive.

I don''t regard Hughton as tactically inept personally - I generally don''t have an issue with how he sets teams up for a match.

I would say i have my doubts about his ability to change the course of a game with the right substitutions and ideas when we are behind and / or struggling. Too many times we''ve seen us go down and not even look like remotely coming back. West Ham was a nice change - hopefully something which will continue.

Let''s all see how Newcastle goes first!

[/quote]

 

With respect, that is a straight contradiction. Even if you think he has generally started out with the right team/formation this season - which is highly arguable - to say he lacks ideas about changing the game (presumably because he can''t "read" the game as well as some) is to say he is tactically inept. A good football manager, like a good captain at cricket, has  to be able to think on their feet.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="hogesar"]I love being a fence-sitter. Well, ignoring the wind chill at the moment.

I can see why, for example, City 1st wants Hughton out. Some of it is even reasonable.

I can also see why, others like LDC, don''t want Hughton to leave. Perhaps even a little bit more of this one is reasonable.

IF, City1st and co are right about Hughton (tactical ineptitude etc) then we will see that over the next 3-5 games. And we will be in a relegation fight till the end of the season even if Hughton isn''t here post those 5 games.

If LDC and co are right, we''ll see a much more confident side at Newcastle. We might not win, but we will match them for large parts of the game. We''ll win at home to Palace (but then again, i could win at home to Palace) and everything will start looking much more positive.

I don''t regard Hughton as tactically inept personally - I generally don''t have an issue with how he sets teams up for a match.

I would say i have my doubts about his ability to change the course of a game with the right substitutions and ideas when we are behind and / or struggling. Too many times we''ve seen us go down and not even look like remotely coming back. West Ham was a nice change - hopefully something which will continue.

Let''s all see how Newcastle goes first!

[/quote]

sadly we have seen that ineptitudeness over 3-5 games this season, never mind the enormous number last seasonI am not sure how you can claim that it will be a relegation fight if Hughton leaves as his going will remove the dead hand that is stifling our play - wether the incoming manager has the ability to motivate the players to get back to winning ways is another matter, but the idea that he will not because of the damage Hughton has done is not a reasoned argumentI am not sure what an issue is, but I think most can see the problem we have at the moment - that problem being we have a manager who appears to be unable to change his still and ultimately the style of play the team are being forced intoif you cannot see a problem with how Hughton set out his team against West Ham then I have to question whether you are putting up amything that resembles reasoned debate but are merely trying to balance your post irrespective of evidence

if it was down to Hughton then why the hell did he not change it earlier on in the first half - if it was not him then it merely backs up the view that he is not the man for the job ............. a view that should have been so easily grasped when he admitted that the home win against Everton was due to the players having a different view to him of  how the latter part of the should be played[/quote]

Addressing the three points in bold.

1) Because it''s my belief that Hughton, even if he does get sacked, isn''t as bad as you make out to be. So if we''ve not picked up any points in the next 3-5 games, the new manager would have to re-instate a major lost confidence and an instant turn around. It does happen, but not all the time. 

2) I did see a problem with how Hughton set us out against West Ham. Hence my use of the term ''generally''. There were games i felt Lambert didn''t set us up correctly, only to then be rectified in the second half (much like Hughton did vs West Ham).

3) Not sure. You''d have to ask him. It was clear Howson was asked to press forward. It was too organised in my opinion to not have been a management decision. I''ve already said i have doubts over his ability to change things during a game, and that involves making substitutions too late at times, for example. So it''s entirely possible he made the decision to change things against West Ham, a little bit late.

What i''m trying to say, City 1st, is that in no way is Hughton perfect. He has a lot to work on. But that doesn''t mean i want him sacked. It also doesn''t make him the worst manager in the entire English Football League structure, as some seem to make out on here.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="First Wizard"]

[quote user="Tony Cottee Woz Ere . . ."]There was very little convincng about saturday''s peformance. Hughton got lucky, no question. Things will almost certanly revert back to normal up at newcastle and the rot will continue. I don''t believe the players have any faith in him, his tactics and motivational skills are abysmal. I can''t see how any player or fan could be inspired by the man. Nice guy but wet as they come. If the board are serious about pushing for the top ten they have to reach into their pockets and appoint a manager capable of delivering it. Does anybody genuinely believe chris hughton is getting anywhere near the best out of our squad of players? There is a lot of potential there, we need a manager capable of realising it. That should be the absolute minimum of expectations.[/quote]

Huzzah!..............and well deserved.[Y][/quote]

Rubbish.  You want convincing?    Hooper''s penalty kick was "convincing".   Snodgrass''s free kick was "convincing".  Fer''s finish was "convincing".  Three "convincing " goals showing a "convincing" pride and attitude to what they are doing. Hughton is doing a good job - all the players need is a bit of confidence.   The Manc results set us back and it showed against WH.   But they came through it and they will be better and stronger for it.[/quote]Huzzah! [Y][/quote]

 

T''wat!

[/quote]and to think somebody mistakenly put this up a few days back, in reply to wiz''s four lettered attack on a City fan"quite a nasty, foul mouthed piece of work, aren''t you ? doesn''t take much to scratch the surface of this supposed ''wind up '' personna you hide behind does it ?"

how wrong they were

[BOO 0]

Hogesar, I can see your trying to present a balanced case but you must surely agree that the ability of a manager to successfully change players and tactics is a vital part of his skill set.

I don''t think CH has this ability, ( government health warning) I would be delighted if he proves me wrong but he has had a lot of time to learn and change and I don''t see it happening.

IF the turnaround in the second half on Saturday was down to him then I am delighted, personally I have my doubts.

We will see over the next few games, but as I said, he has had plenty of time to show!

[*** 0]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="First Wizard"]

[quote user="Tony Cottee Woz Ere . . ."]There was very little convincng about saturday''s peformance. Hughton got lucky, no question. Things will almost certanly revert back to normal up at newcastle and the rot will continue. I don''t believe the players have any faith in him, his tactics and motivational skills are abysmal. I can''t see how any player or fan could be inspired by the man. Nice guy but wet as they come. If the board are serious about pushing for the top ten they have to reach into their pockets and appoint a manager capable of delivering it. Does anybody genuinely believe chris hughton is getting anywhere near the best out of our squad of players? There is a lot of potential there, we need a manager capable of realising it. That should be the absolute minimum of expectations.[/quote]

Huzzah!..............and well deserved.[Y][/quote]


Rubbish.  You want convincing?    Hooper''s penalty kick was "convincing".   Snodgrass''s free kick was "convincing".  Fer''s finish was "convincing".  Three "convincing " goals showing a "convincing" pride and attitude to what they are doing.

Hughton is doing a good job - all the players need is a bit of confidence.   The Manc results set us back and it showed against WH.   But they came through it and they will be better and stronger for it.[/quote]

Huzzah! [Y]
[/quote]

 

T''wat!

[/quote]

and to think somebody mistakenly put this up a few days back, in reply to wiz''s four lettered attack on a City fan


"quite a nasty, foul mouthed piece of work, aren''t you ?

doesn''t take much to scratch the surface of this supposed ''wind up '' personna you hide behind does it ?"


how wrong they were



[/quote]

 

Sigh.

[morty 0]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="City1st"][quote user="hogesar"]I love being a fence-sitter. Well, ignoring the wind chill at the moment.

I can see why, for example, City 1st wants Hughton out. Some of it is even reasonable.

I can also see why, others like LDC, don''t want Hughton to leave. Perhaps even a little bit more of this one is reasonable.

IF, City1st and co are right about Hughton (tactical ineptitude etc) then we will see that over the next 3-5 games. And we will be in a relegation fight till the end of the season even if Hughton isn''t here post those 5 games.

If LDC and co are right, we''ll see a much more confident side at Newcastle. We might not win, but we will match them for large parts of the game. We''ll win at home to Palace (but then again, i could win at home to Palace) and everything will start looking much more positive.

I don''t regard Hughton as tactically inept personally - I generally don''t have an issue with how he sets teams up for a match.

I would say i have my doubts about his ability to change the course of a game with the right substitutions and ideas when we are behind and / or struggling. Too many times we''ve seen us go down and not even look like remotely coming back. West Ham was a nice change - hopefully something which will continue.

Let''s all see how Newcastle goes first!

[/quote]

sadly we have seen that ineptitudeness over 3-5 games this season, never mind the enormous number last seasonI am not sure how you can claim that it will be a relegation fight if Hughton leaves as his going will remove the dead hand that is stifling our play - wether the incoming manager has the ability to motivate the players to get back to winning ways is another matter, but the idea that he will not because of the damage Hughton has done is not a reasoned argumentI am not sure what an issue is, but I think most can see the problem we have at the moment - that problem being we have a manager who appears to be unable to change his still and ultimately the style of play the team are being forced intoif you cannot see a problem with how Hughton set out his team against West Ham then I have to question whether you are putting up amything that resembles reasoned debate but are merely trying to balance your post irrespective of evidence

if it was down to Hughton then why the hell did he not change it earlier on in the first half - if it was not him then it merely backs up the view that he is not the man for the job ............. a view that should have been so easily grasped when he admitted that the home win against Everton was due to the players having a different view to him of  how the latter part of the should be played[/quote]

Addressing the three points in bold.

1) Because it''s my belief that Hughton, even if he does get sacked, isn''t as bad as you make out to be. So if we''ve not picked up any points in the next 3-5 games, the new manager would have to re-instate a major lost confidence and an instant turn around. It does happen, but not all the time. 

2) I did see a problem with how Hughton set us out against West Ham. Hence my use of the term ''generally''. There were games i felt Lambert didn''t set us up correctly, only to then be rectified in the second half (much like Hughton did vs West Ham).

3) Not sure. You''d have to ask him. It was clear Howson was asked to press forward. It was too organised in my opinion to not have been a management decision. I''ve already said i have doubts over his ability to change things during a game, and that involves making substitutions too late at times, for example. So it''s entirely possible he made the decision to change things against West Ham, a little bit late.

What i''m trying to say, City 1st, is that in no way is Hughton perfect. He has a lot to work on. But that doesn''t mean i want him sacked. It also doesn''t make him the worst manager in the entire English Football League structure, as some seem to make out on here.

[/quote]

Good stuff, glad to see there is still occasional common sense on here.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="City1st"][quote user="hogesar"]I love being a fence-sitter. Well, ignoring the wind chill at the moment.

I can see why, for example, City 1st wants Hughton out. Some of it is even reasonable.

I can also see why, others like LDC, don''t want Hughton to leave. Perhaps even a little bit more of this one is reasonable.

IF, City1st and co are right about Hughton (tactical ineptitude etc) then we will see that over the next 3-5 games. And we will be in a relegation fight till the end of the season even if Hughton isn''t here post those 5 games.

If LDC and co are right, we''ll see a much more confident side at Newcastle. We might not win, but we will match them for large parts of the game. We''ll win at home to Palace (but then again, i could win at home to Palace) and everything will start looking much more positive.

I don''t regard Hughton as tactically inept personally - I generally don''t have an issue with how he sets teams up for a match.

I would say i have my doubts about his ability to change the course of a game with the right substitutions and ideas when we are behind and / or struggling. Too many times we''ve seen us go down and not even look like remotely coming back. West Ham was a nice change - hopefully something which will continue.

Let''s all see how Newcastle goes first!

[/quote]

sadly we have seen that ineptitudeness over 3-5 games this season, never mind the enormous number last seasonI am not sure how you can claim that it will be a relegation fight if Hughton leaves as his going will remove the dead hand that is stifling our play - wether the incoming manager has the ability to motivate the players to get back to winning ways is another matter, but the idea that he will not because of the damage Hughton has done is not a reasoned argumentI am not sure what an issue is, but I think most can see the problem we have at the moment - that problem being we have a manager who appears to be unable to change his still and ultimately the style of play the team are being forced intoif you cannot see a problem with how Hughton set out his team against West Ham then I have to question whether you are putting up amything that resembles reasoned debate but are merely trying to balance your post irrespective of evidence

if it was down to Hughton then why the hell did he not change it earlier on in the first half - if it was not him then it merely backs up the view that he is not the man for the job ............. a view that should have been so easily grasped when he admitted that the home win against Everton was due to the players having a different view to him of  how the latter part of the should be played[/quote]

Addressing the three points in bold.

1) Because it''s my belief that Hughton, even if he does get sacked, isn''t as bad as you make out to be. So if we''ve not picked up any points in the next 3-5 games, the new manager would have to re-instate a major lost confidence and an instant turn around. It does happen, but not all the time. 

2) I did see a problem with how Hughton set us out against West Ham. Hence my use of the term ''generally''. There were games i felt Lambert didn''t set us up correctly, only to then be rectified in the second half (much like Hughton did vs West Ham).

3) Not sure. You''d have to ask him. It was clear Howson was asked to press forward. It was too organised in my opinion to not have been a management decision. I''ve already said i have doubts over his ability to change things during a game, and that involves making substitutions too late at times, for example. So it''s entirely possible he made the decision to change things against West Ham, a little bit late.

What i''m trying to say, City 1st, is that in no way is Hughton perfect. He has a lot to work on. But that doesn''t mean i want him sacked. It also doesn''t make him the worst manager in the entire English Football League structure, as some seem to make out on here.

[/quote]

1. It is not a case of how bad I make him out to be. It is the league position, the lack of goals and the week in week out dire football he is delivering. Once again you slip in emotive phrases so as to be able to knock them down. No one is talking about an instant turn around and an incoming manager would not be expected to achieve that. Likewise I doubt the board will give Hughton another 3-5 games without picking up any points2 The difference is Lamberts failures regarding setting up were few and far between, Hughton''s are pretty much par for the course. The reality is that Hhughton DID NOT rectify things in the second half. It was the same set up and the same players as the first half. It was the players who began to abandon (yet aagin) this nonsensical static/zonal play.3. Once again you are using speculation as fact. You have no evidence that Hughton instructed Howson to get press forward, in fact it ould seem highly unlikely given how Hughton has always played him deep. As to it being organised how were the two deadball goals organised ? Look at Fer''s goal, something that came after Hughton had brought on Johnson and was urging his players onn the defensive. If you are at the game you can see how much he gives away by his reactions. A goal that he did not celebrate, nor did the players choose to celebrate with him.

You can add more emotive stuff about him not being perfect or being the worst manager in the football league but again no one has claimed or expected that. Supporters are merely asking that we have a manager that is up to the job, and in that light I wonder what the reaction would be were we ti have been told that 15 months after his appointment he still would have a lot of work to do and that we would be stuck in the relegation zone.There have been too many excuse and, too many failings though thankfully only a few left who still think having their head stuck in the sand means others can''t see what is all too obvious.Time was up some while back and I suspect it is merely a case of sorting out the next manager.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Hogesar, I can see your trying to present a balanced case but you must surely agree that the ability of a manager to successfully change players and tactics is a vital part of his skill set.

I don''t think CH has this ability, ( government health warning) I would be delighted if he proves me wrong but he has had a lot of time to learn and change and I don''t see it happening.

IF the turnaround in the second half on Saturday was down to him then I am delighted, personally I have my doubts.

We will see over the next few games, but as I said, he has had plenty of time to show![/quote]

 

So it looks like we''re going to need an alternative league table yet again this season. One showing where we are in the league and a second one showing where we''d be if we had the points that the Winkys of this world think Hughton deserved.

 

Seriously.. if he was that bad you wouldn''t have to manipulate stats to show it. Would you?

 

 

[BOO 0]

What are you on about?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Yet another win which isn''t down to Hughton Winky.

 

It don''t work like that I''m afraid. He''s responsible for the 0-7s and the 3-1s.

 

 

[BOO 0]

I actually said I have my doubts

[nutty nigel 7,528]

And I said : -

 

"So it looks like we''re going to need an alternative league table yet again this season. One showing where we are in the league and a second one showing where we''d be if we had the points that the Winkys of this world think Hughton deserved."

 

 

[CANARYKING 637]

Right, let!s get down to the end game, you want him out of here, who is going to take over ?

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="hogesar"]I love being a fence-sitter. Well, ignoring the wind chill at the moment.

I can see why, for example, City 1st wants Hughton out. Some of it is even reasonable.

I can also see why, others like LDC, don''t want Hughton to leave. Perhaps even a little bit more of this one is reasonable.

IF, City1st and co are right about Hughton (tactical ineptitude etc) then we will see that over the next 3-5 games. And we will be in a relegation fight till the end of the season even if Hughton isn''t here post those 5 games.

If LDC and co are right, we''ll see a much more confident side at Newcastle. We might not win, but we will match them for large parts of the game. We''ll win at home to Palace (but then again, i could win at home to Palace) and everything will start looking much more positive.

I don''t regard Hughton as tactically inept personally - I generally don''t have an issue with how he sets teams up for a match.

I would say i have my doubts about his ability to change the course of a game with the right substitutions and ideas when we are behind and / or struggling. Too many times we''ve seen us go down and not even look like remotely coming back. West Ham was a nice change - hopefully something which will continue.

Let''s all see how Newcastle goes first!

[/quote]

 

With respect, that is a straight contradiction. Even if you think he has generally started out with the right team/formation this season - which is highly arguable - to say he lacks ideas about changing the game (presumably because he can''t "read" the game as well as some) is to say he is tactically inept. A good football manager, like a good captain at cricket, has  to be able to think on their feet.

[/quote]

Corr Purple, straight contradiction? Never!

A manager who so far this season hasn''t looked like he has made the right decisions in games doesn''t mean he is not capable of doing so. Maybe i''m making the mistake of using his past as a positive towards him - but reputation and past experience has to count for something. He done well at Newcastle and at Birmingham. 

Maybe inept isn''t the right word (taking it''s literal meaning -  displaying a lack of judgement - is something he''s been guilty of). What i''m trying to get across is he isn''t someone i''d say "Oh, he''ll never learn from his mistakes. He doesn''t know how to change anything". I don''t think he''s incapable of managing us, tactically. He''s been trying different set-ups throughout this season. And some have been happy with it. Certainly the midfield three of Fer, Howson and Tettey got some significant praise on this forum, and let to better performances with more midfield control (to an extent).

Hughton, certainly comes across as an intelligent, quick thinking bloke. I reckon he probably does think on his feet - maybe he see''s the margins as too risky at the moment - something he''ll have to come to terms with himself.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="Vanwink"]Hogesar, I can see your trying to present a balanced case but you must surely agree that the ability of a manager to successfully change players and tactics is a vital part of his skill set.

I don''t think CH has this ability, ( government health warning) I would be delighted if he proves me wrong but he has had a lot of time to learn and change and I don''t see it happening.

IF the turnaround in the second half on Saturday was down to him then I am delighted, personally I have my doubts.

We will see over the next few games, but as I said, he has had plenty of time to show![/quote]

What i''ve put in bold - absolutely spot on.

But attaining the confidence / bravery to change things earlier in a game is something he''ll have to adapt to. Last season, defensively we were very solid so there was never a huge need to make massive changes during a game - we were pretty much always in with a shout even if we were playing terribly because we would often be only 1-0 down. Had he been more brave and gambled in those games last season maybe we''d have accrued more points. Regardless we finished the season in a fantastic position.

I don''t think it has anything to do with the ''ability'' so to speak. He''s not thick - he can think for himself. He might need to be a bit braver, especially at home.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="City1st"]2 The difference is Lamberts failures regarding setting up were few and far between, Hughton''s are pretty much par for the course. The reality is that Hhughton DID NOT rectify things in the second half. It was the same set up and the same players as the first half. It was the players who began to abandon (yet aagin) this nonsensical static/zonal play.3. Once again you are using speculation as fact. You have no evidence that Hughton instructed Howson to get press forward, in fact it ould seem highly unlikely given how Hughton has always played him deep. As to it being organised how were the two deadball goals organised ? Look at Fer''s goal, something that came after Hughton had brought on Johnson and was urging his players onn the defensive. If you are at the game you can see how much he gives away by his reactions. A goal that he did not celebrate, nor did the players choose to celebrate with him.There have been too many excuse and, too many failings though thankfully only a few left who still think having their head stuck in the sand means others can''t see what is all too obvious.[/quote]

I''ve highlighted two quotes purely so the irony can set in for a bit City 1st...

It''s my opinion that you don''t have to change the formation or the personnel to have an effect on how a team plays. Everything from individual player instructions, team ethos, motivational work etc can all have an impact on how a team performs. So just because there was no fixed formation change, doesn''t mean you can guarantee Hughton didn''t have an impact.

I have no evidence that Hughton instructed Howson to press forward other than the fact that Howson did press forward. And from what i could see, Hughton was hardly barking at him to get back all game.

Like i''ve said, i''d like to think our manager did make a difference to the way we came out in the second half. You see it differently. Thats fair enough, but both are just opinions.

If you''re going to use evidence of our play against the manager then might i suggest you take the first half performance which was much more of a concern than if Hughton, Calderwood or Becchio inspired the team to kick on and perform much better in that second half.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="hogesar"]

Corr Purple, straight contradiction? Never!

A manager who so far this season hasn''t looked like he has made the right decisions in games doesn''t mean he is not capable of doing so. Maybe i''m making the mistake of using his past as a positive towards him - but reputation and past experience has to count for something. He done well at Newcastle and at Birmingham. 

Maybe inept isn''t the right word (taking it''s literal meaning -  displaying a lack of judgement - is something he''s been guilty of). What i''m trying to get across is he isn''t someone i''d say "Oh, he''ll never learn from his mistakes. He doesn''t know how to change anything". I don''t think he''s incapable of managing us, tactically. He''s been trying different set-ups throughout this season. And some have been happy with it. Certainly the midfield three of Fer, Howson and Tettey got some significant praise on this forum, and let to better performances with more midfield control (to an extent).

Hughton, certainly comes across as an intelligent, quick thinking bloke. I reckon he probably does think on his feet - maybe he see''s the margins as too risky at the moment - something he''ll have to come to terms with himself.

[/quote]

 

Hogesar, this is  very much at a distance, but I would question that description. Hughton comes across primarily as articulate (which is by no means necessarily the same as intelligent) and contemplative.Anyway, to throw some statistics into the argument. Hughton has been in football his whole life. More than 360 club games played, and more than 50 internationals, and as a defender, where you are particularly taught about systems and tactics. Then a long career as a first team coach at Spurs and Newcastle, With the former he served under ten managers, so he must have been introduced to all sorts of different tactical ideas. On top of that he has now been a manager in hs own right for more than 200 games.He is not some coaching/managerial novice. He has a great deal of experience. If, as I and others believe, he isn''t very good at tactics, then I very much doubt he is going to get any better. What you see is what you are going to go on getting.

[BOO 0]

hogesar wrote the following post at 13/11/2013 11:07 PM:

Vanwink wrote:

Hogesar, I can see your trying to present a balanced case but you must surely agree that the ability of a manager to successfully change players and tactics is a vital part of his skill set. I don''t think CH has this ability, ( government health warning) I would be delighted if he proves me wrong but he has had a lot of time to learn and change and I don''t see it happening. IF the turnaround in the second half on Saturday was down to him then I am delighted, personally I have my doubts. We will see over the next few games, but as I said, he has had plenty of time to show!

What i''ve put in bold - absolutely spot on.

But attaining the confidence / bravery to change things earlier in a game is something he''ll have to adapt to. Last season, defensively we were very solid so there was never a huge need to make massive changes during a game - we were pretty much always in with a shout even if we were playing terribly because we would often be only 1-0 down. Had he been more brave and gambled in those games last season maybe we''d have accrued more points. Regardless we finished the season in a fantastic position.

I don''t think it has anything to do with the ''ability'' so to speak. He''s not thick - he can think for himself. He might need to be a bit braver, especially at home.

Thanks for the reply Hogesar.

My concern is that CH has been in a coach/ assistant manager/ manager position since 1993, I would have expected him to have "attained the confidence/bravery to change things earlier in the game" by now, if he was ever going to. I am sure as you say that he isn''t thick, he speaks well and his persona on TV brings credit to the club. However, having the technical knowledge about football is only part of the equation here, the other aspect is understanding how to best use it, the difference perhaps between being a coach and making the step up to being a manager.

[T 190]

Well as our performance was ahead of  the budgeted performance last season and we are currently in line with budgeted performance this season it suggests if the critics are right that CH is bad at tactics then either tactics really are not that important, other mangers are equally bad or worse at tactics, or CH is better than other managers in areas other than tactics.

[morty 0]

Or perhaps the plain fact is that Chris Hughton knows more about this than we do?

When fans are flapping like kippers and screaming for change, the manager is calmly assessing the situation, and knows way better than any of us do as to when the time is best to make changes?

Or is that just too crazy a theory?

[*** 0]

[quote user="morty"]Or perhaps the plain fact is that Chris Hughton knows more about this than we do?

When fans are flapping like kippers and screaming for change, the manager is calmly assessing the situation, and knows way better than any of us do as to when the time is best to make changes?

Or is that just too crazy a theory?

[/quote]

 

One win against a poor Hammers side, who, incidently, completly outplayed us for 45 minutes on our own patch, and you come on here all Billy big bollocks giving it full throttle.

 

Thankfully, some of us have longer memories of his many failings.

[Warren Hill 0]

[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="morty"]Or perhaps the plain fact is that Chris Hughton knows more about this than we do?

When fans are flapping like kippers and screaming for change, the manager is calmly assessing the situation, and knows way better than any of us do as to when the time is best to make changes?

Or is that just too crazy a theory?

[/quote]

 

One win against a poor Hammers side, who, incidently, completly outplayed us for 45 minutes on our own patch, and you come on here all Billy big bollocks giving it full throttle.

 

Thankfully, some of us have longer memories of his many failings.

[/quote]

 

The same poor Hammers side that you predicted would beat us? Or the same poor Hammers side who had only conceded once away from home before they faced Chrissy''s Mighty Yellow Force? Or the same poor Hammers side that beat Spurs 3-0 at the Lane?

 

Let''s be honest, they only became a poor side in your eyes when we beat them. You were gutted, weren''t you?

 

 

[snake-eyes 13]

You are correct Morty in that CH and other Managers know more about the game than we do, however if they are so right why do they still get so much wrong?

Do they lose or fail to win purely because of bad luck? Or might it be that they may actually not be that good?

As for T, football on the pitch is not played using a balance sheet or Spreadsheet.

It involves far more complex variables than financial figures.

Your assessments on here sound like you are quoting from some anonymous text book. It is very stale and sterile.

[*** 0]

[quote user="Warren Hill"][quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="morty"]Or perhaps the plain fact is that Chris Hughton knows more about this than we do?

When fans are flapping like kippers and screaming for change, the manager is calmly assessing the situation, and knows way better than any of us do as to when the time is best to make changes?

Or is that just too crazy a theory?

[/quote]

 

One win against a poor Hammers side, who, incidently, completly outplayed us for 45 minutes on our own patch, and you come on here all Billy big bollocks giving it full throttle.

 

Thankfully, some of us have longer memories of his many failings.

[/quote]

 

The same poor Hammers side that you predicted would beat us? Or the same poor Hammers side who had only conceded once away from home before they faced Chrissy''s Mighty Yellow Force? Or the same poor Hammers side that beat Spurs 3-0 at the Lane?

 

Let''s be honest, they only became a poor side in your eyes when we beat them. You were gutted, weren''t you?

 

 

[/quote]

 

Oh dear, a tragic counter arguement, wake up ffs!

[Warren Hill 0]

Wake up? A semi conscious amoeba could see through you First Wizard.

 

I bet you were really miserable Saturday night. Are you still able to kick the cat?

[morty 0]

[quote user="snake-eyes"]You are correct Morty in that CH and other Managers know more about the game than we do, however if they are so right why do they still get so much wrong?

Do they lose or fail to win purely because of bad luck? Or might it be that they may actually not be that good?

As for T, football on the pitch is not played using a balance sheet or Spreadsheet.

It involves far more complex variables than financial figures.

Your assessments on here sound like you are quoting from some anonymous text book. It is very stale and sterile.[/quote]

But are they getting so much wrong. People can say till they are blue in the face that injuries, new players gelling, hard games are excuses, but they are factors. People moan we arent scoring goals, oh wait, hang on, Hooper isnt actually long back from injury and looks like ricky hasnt been 100% fit all season.

I am not saying everything is perfect, far from it, but i am more willing to take the common sense view that there are contributing factors.

[morty 0]

[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="morty"]Or perhaps the plain fact is that Chris Hughton knows more about this than we do?

When fans are flapping like kippers and screaming for change, the manager is calmly assessing the situation, and knows way better than any of us do as to when the time is best to make changes?

Or is that just too crazy a theory?

[/quote]

 

One win against a poor Hammers side, who, incidently, completly outplayed us for 45 minutes on our own patch, and you come on here all Billy big bollocks giving it full throttle.

 

Thankfully, some of us have longer memories of his many failings.

[/quote]

Feel free to point out where I was giving it large, like any proper fan I was happy we''d won. 

You really are tragically pathetic lol.

[Orford65 0]

[quote user="T"]Well as our performance was ahead of  the budgeted performance last season and we are currently in line with budgeted performance this season it suggests if the critics are right that CH is bad at tactics then either tactics really are not that important, other mangers are equally bad or worse at tactics, or CH is better than other managers in areas other than tactics.[/quote]Following on with the tactics theme, Big Sam obviously had his spot on from the start and bossed the first half. After the break he tried in vain to wrest back control of the game by making three tactical substitutions, none of which worked or had any impact whatsoever.Does Big Sam then become tactically inept, unable to make the right tactical decisions, or was he outsmarted by Hughton?Alternatively of course it could be that both managers had to go with the best players available to them, set their team up accordingly and hope for the best.Hughton would of course been castigated by the Hobnobs for being negative and defensive if he had gone with one up front and five across the middle from the start to counter the expected Spammers line-up.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="T"]Well as our performance was ahead of  the budgeted performance last season and we are currently in line with budgeted performance this season it suggests if the critics are right that CH is bad at tactics then either tactics really are not that important, other mangers are equally bad or worse at tactics, or CH is better than other managers in areas other than tactics.[/quote]

 

The point about other aspects of management is a fair one. I am only an Outer if there is available someone as good or nearly as good at whatever it is Hughton does well and markedly more astute on tactics. Which do matter. We have been here before, with Worthington. Whose lack of tactical nous at Premier League level cost us vital points.As to whether our current league position is in line with our budget plans, I assume only a very few people (the directors, the finance chief and Hughton for example) would know that for a fact. And in any event how our budget stands in comparison with those of the other 19 clubs - which is the relevant league table - will not be known for a fact until this time next year. Until then it can at best be educated guesswork.But what is undeniable it that we are behind the board''s ambition, as stated by Alan Bowkett only last month, of doing better season by season:"The continuous improvement objective for this football club is to improve from an 11th-placed finish in the Premier League, and that means we’re looking for a top-10 finish. We’ve always sensibly budgeted for staying in the Premier League at a modest level. But the ambition of the football club – and Chris knows this – is continuous improvement. So 12th, 11th... What does that mean? It means a top-10 finish."Now there may have been a bit of bravado for public consumption there, although Bowket can hardly have been so public about expecting improvement if the board have not gone at least some way to providing the money to fund it.But the statistical bottom line is that, far from improving, we are not even holding our own. We are doing worse. In 2011-12 we gained 47 points - 1.236 per game. Last season, although finishing a place higher, we racked up 44 points - 1.157 per game. This season we are on 11 from 11. A final tally of 38 might or might not get us relegated, but it certainly wouldn''t have us finishing as high as 12th or 11th, let alone in the top ten.

[snake-eyes 13]

Morty,

 

with all due respect, those ''mitigating factors'' are just excuses.  Tactics and decision making from the Management has been very poor and very poor for quite sometime. we are right to moan about not scoring goals and it has nothing to do with the main strikers being injured or not bedding in quickly, but quite simply we have created nothing for them.  This is because of poor tactics and poor decision making from both the management and from the ''creative'' players on the pitch.

 

I cheered and was giving high fives with all those around me when we beat West Ham, but everyone agreed when I said that we had just got out of jail with that one.  We were gifted an opportunity to get back in the game, which was completely out of the blue. Up until that point we were still awful and never looked like scoring.

 

We improved, but WH were still pretty comfortable until again out of the blue a rasping 30 yrd drive from Howson rattled the bar and the most idiotic piece of defending from Collins bundles Snoddy over.  For the first time this Season Snoddy does something right and we somehow find ourselves winning a game that we really should have been losing badly after the first 45.  It really wasn''t until the second goal went in that we started to look like a team that could win the game.  WH were then all at sea and chasing the game which was not in their game plan. Sam Allerdyce was right when he said they gave that game away.

 

Do you really believe we would have got anything out of that game without the Calamity of the goal keeper?  I saw nothing to indicate that and that is what worries me.  We may just escape relegation this year, but for the club to progress we need to be asking more.  I am afraid I do not see Chris Hughton as a progressive manager.  Stand still and the rest will pass you by, which is already happening.

 

I admire your faith, but I have seen absolutely nothing to encourage me that CH is the manager who can develop, evolve and revolutionise our club!

 

He may prove me wrong and if he does BRILLIANT for all involved.........but I doubt it.

 

Snake