Tactical discussion - enough with the moaning

[LondonCanary 12]

Bored of the moaning, we all understand the position

2 wins out of 23 away from home, 5 wins out of 26 league games in total. Hull: only 115 passes out of 442 were completed in the attacking third. One of only 5 out of 21 crosses attempted were successful (header on target). Everton: Two shots on target for the whole game and 23.75 minutes per shot. Spurs: 32% possession, 1 shot on target.

Absent a change of management, how do we improve with what we have. We have options - constructive comments only.

Two options I would like to see considered:

Tettey back in central midfield. We need to build around Fer who he will complement perfectly. He was also central to our best period of form last season.

Sorting out the number 10. We have Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea coming up and cant approach them like we did with a flat 442 (two number 9s) like v Spurs. I dont believe Elmander or Hoops can play there - they are pure out and out strikers. For me the only viable options we have are Hoolahan or pushing Howson up. Rotation of both based on performance.

[JF 694]

Bribery!?

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="LondonCanary"]Bored of the moaning, we all understand the position

2 wins out of 23 away from home, 5 wins out of 26 league games in total. Hull: only 115 passes out of 442 were completed in the attacking third. One of only 5 out of 21 crosses attempted were successful (header on target). Everton: Two shots on target for the whole game and 23.75 minutes per shot. Spurs: 32% possession, 1 shot on target.

Absent a change of management, how do we improve with what we have. We have options - constructive comments only.

Two options I would like to see considered:

Tettey back in central midfield. We need to build around Fer who he will complement perfectly. He was also central to our best period of form last season.

Sorting out the number 10. We have Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea coming up and cant approach them like we did with a flat 442 (two number 9s) like v Spurs. I dont believe Elmander or Hoops can play there - they are pure out and out strikers. For me the only viable options we have are Hoolahan or pushing Howson up. Rotation of both based on performance.[/quote]

are you there young nutty ?

[nutty nigel 7,902]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="LondonCanary"]Bored of the moaning, we all understand the position

2 wins out of 23 away from home, 5 wins out of 26 league games in total. Hull: only 115 passes out of 442 were completed in the attacking third. One of only 5 out of 21 crosses attempted were successful (header on target). Everton: Two shots on target for the whole game and 23.75 minutes per shot. Spurs: 32% possession, 1 shot on target.

Absent a change of management, how do we improve with what we have. We have options - constructive comments only.

Two options I would like to see considered:

Tettey back in central midfield. We need to build around Fer who he will complement perfectly. He was also central to our best period of form last season.

Sorting out the number 10. We have Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea coming up and cant approach them like we did with a flat 442 (two number 9s) like v Spurs. I dont believe Elmander or Hoops can play there - they are pure out and out strikers. For me the only viable options we have are Hoolahan or pushing Howson up. Rotation of both based on performance.[/quote]

are you there young nutty ?

[/quote]

 

Yes. I am. Is there going to be a hole in those games?

 

 

[LondonCanary 12]

I was clearing wrong trying to deviate from the 100 other sack CH threads. This Forum is as useful as CH himself.

[djc 0]

Personally, I am not sure what the answer to the problem is, but someone sitting behind me yesterday said after 38 minutes in the first half we might as well all go home...... sadly his comment was right!

For me, the team showed a lack of desire to win. Yes, we had a few chances, showed some positive moves down the right hand side in the second half between Martin and Snoddy, but generally, there seems a reluctance from the players to try new stuff.... like shooting from distance.

Hooper showed some nice touches in the second half, and his arrival was warmly greeted, yet removing Redmond was instantly booed by the fans. Interestingly, many left before the 90minutes were up. Wonder what McNally thinks of that!

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="LondonCanary"]Bored of the moaning, we all understand the position

2 wins out of 23 away from home, 5 wins out of 26 league games in total. Hull: only 115 passes out of 442 were completed in the attacking third. One of only 5 out of 21 crosses attempted were successful (header on target). Everton: Two shots on target for the whole game and 23.75 minutes per shot. Spurs: 32% possession, 1 shot on target.

Absent a change of management, how do we improve with what we have. We have options - constructive comments only.

Two options I would like to see considered:

Tettey back in central midfield. We need to build around Fer who he will complement perfectly. He was also central to our best period of form last season.

Sorting out the number 10. We have Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea coming up and cant approach them like we did with a flat 442 (two number 9s) like v Spurs. I dont believe Elmander or Hoops can play there - they are pure out and out strikers. For me the only viable options we have are Hoolahan or pushing Howson up. Rotation of both based on performance.[/quote]

are you there young nutty ?

[/quote]

 

Yes. I am. Is there going to be a hole in those games?

 

 

[/quote]only if you can shift it so it runs through the channels and delivers an outcome

[JF 694]

I agree regarding Tettey being back in midfield and i would bring Hoolahan back into the supporting role, he offers the player on the ball an option at all times and has the ability to pick a pass for either RvW or Hooper. I would bring Pilkinton in for Redmond and use him from the bench as an impact sub when the opposition tires and would also like to see Olson given a run in the side. What i teally want to see though is us attack with some spontaneity, our attacks are far to predictable and almost drilled.

[City 2nd 193]

LondonCanary wrote the following post at 2013-09-22 11:41 PM:

Bored of the moaning, we all understand the position

Absent a change of management, how do we improve with what we have.

Two options I would like to see considered:

Tettey back in central midfield. We need to build around Fer who he will complement perfectly. He was also central to our best period of form last season.

Sorting out the number 10. We have Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea coming up and cant approach them like we did with a flat 442 (two number 9s) like v Spurs. I dont believe Elmander or Hoops can play there

All last season, this pre-season, and in the last five games CH has tried many variations in defence, midfield, No 10 and the forwards. What has not changed through all of this is the defensive mandate and our style of play. In fact I personally do not think it will ever change whilst he remains here, regardless of what personnel he uses and tactics he chooses.

[Iwans Big Toe 382]

1st I would play a left footed player on the left and a right footed player on the right (probably Redmond and Pilkington looking at yesterday''s game). Then I''d tell them, and the full-backs whom I would encourage to overlap (who would also be left footed on the left and right footed on the right) try and get a cross into the box. When the cross has come into the box, I''d then instruct Rocky Van Bullwinkle, Gary Hooper, Johan Elmander (depending on who has done best in training that week) or the wide player on the opposite wing to get on the end of it and put it into the back of the net. Next I''d consider playing a 3 man central midfield with all players being able to mix it up (so that''s Tettey, Johnson and Fer), I would then instruct that at any one time 2 of them are free to go and join in the attack but one must sit back in a holding role to help the 4 man defence, unless of course one of the full-backs is overlapping and then 2 must stay back and help. The roaming midfielders would also be encouraged to pass the ball forwards as many times as possible or have a shot on goal when an opportunity presents itself as I am fed up of seeing them do their best Carlton Palmer impersonations.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="LondonCanary"]Bored of the moaning, we all understand the position

2 wins out of 23 away from home, 5 wins out of 26 league games in total. Hull: only 115 passes out of 442 were completed in the attacking third. One of only 5 out of 21 crosses attempted were successful (header on target). Everton: Two shots on target for the whole game and 23.75 minutes per shot. Spurs: 32% possession, 1 shot on target.

Absent a change of management, how do we improve with what we have. We have options - constructive comments only.

Two options I would like to see considered:

Tettey back in central midfield. We need to build around Fer who he will complement perfectly. He was also central to our best period of form last season.

Sorting out the number 10. We have Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea coming up and cant approach them like we did with a flat 442 (two number 9s) like v Spurs. I dont believe Elmander or Hoops can play there - they are pure out and out strikers. For me the only viable options we have are Hoolahan or pushing Howson up. Rotation of both based on performance.[/quote]

are you there young nutty ?

[/quote]

 

Yes. I am. Is there going to be a hole in those games?

 

 

[/quote]only if you can shift it so it runs through the channels and delivers an outcome

[/quote]

Some people would take issue with that...

 

I think Laaarndon did. Cheer up buddy, there''s room for us all on here.

 

The tactics from Saturday were in the main what posters here had been asking for. The most likely outcome of this thread is it will identify players who haven''t played for a while to be the answer.

 

Hoolahan certainly wasn''t rated by the majority when he was playing. Neither was Tettey and I can''t even remember if Fox was. How about the team v Southampton. That was probably our best performance. Maybe give Tettey a go in place of Johnson but Fer looked a much better player beside Johnson than he did beside Howson. And Johnson gave us greater insurance for our defence. What did you think was our best performance?

 

 

[Mister Chops 7]

So this is probably going to sound mental but there is a case against the top sides for a 4-5-1 with Elmander as the lone front man given he can win it, hold it, and isn''t just about goalscoring.  RvW offers little in the way of all round forward play - I have no knowledge of Hooper''s capability as yet but away from home we could opt for something like

                                RuddyWhittaker     Bassong*   Turner     Garrido                      Tettey      JohnsonSnodgrass                 Fer                 Pilkington/Redmond                               Elmander

* Martin if unfit

[nutty nigel 7,902]

Looks ok to me Mister. And there''d be plenty of options on the bench.

 

 

[Iwans Big Toe 382]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]So this is probably going to sound mental but there is a case against the top sides for a 4-5-1 with Elmander as the lone front man given he can win it, hold it, and isn''t just about goalscoring.  RvW offers little in the way of all round forward play - I have no knowledge of Hooper''s capability as yet but away from home we could opt for something like

                                RuddyWhittaker     Bassong*   Turner     Garrido                      Tettey      JohnsonSnodgrass                 Fer                 Pilkington/Redmond                               Elmander

* Martin if unfit

[/quote]I''d prefer

                           Ruddy  Martin      Bassong      Turner      Olsson                Johnson   Fer   Tettey                              Redmond                                   Pilkington                         ElmanderSnodgrass should be dropped to the reserves if he has knowingly gone against management instructions, if not his performances lately merit him starting from the bench. Lets get some crosses into the box and encourage our central midfielders to pass forwards, have the occasional shot and not be afraid of giving the ball to the opposition.

[mrs miggins 0]

I think we''re in trouble if we have elmander as our main striker when we have RVW and Hooper

[Iwans Big Toe 382]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]I think we''re in trouble if we have elmander as our main striker when we have RVW and Hooper[/quote]I''d be happy for any of them to play up front, just as long as they''re scoring on a fairly regular basis.

[The Funky Homosapien 0]

Judging by the Villa and Tottenham games Elmander can neither win nor hold the ball and I''ve yet to see him have a solid shot on goal in the prem (I can only remember his weak passback against Tottenham, maybe I''ve forgotten one?). Wolf might struggle against the physicality of Stoke so think Hooper might be better suited or stick them both up front and go **** or bust! (As long as Wolf isn''t injured).

[peateabee 0]

Firstly I would like to see Tettey and Fer start together for a couple of games. I''m not particularly a fan of How son, but fair play to him I thought that was one of his more solid performances for us. (on a side note i''m personally amazed people think Howson should play behind the striker - to me he seems to have a fairly bad case of Chronic Final Third Indesicion. I think he is potentially more of a playmaking central midfielder)

However Tettey and Fer are two good athletes and on paper could form a strong partnership - particularly for away games. I''ve always thought Tettey has a good understanding of his defensive positioning as a midfielder - if he can do that role and be full of energy, closing people down etc and just keep his passing really simple that can allow Fer to roam the midfield more. Fer has the ability to burst past people al la Yaya Toure and run and move in a direct way which I think we need to be not too constrained.

On to our attacking options. Firstly I hope we don''t see the Van Wolfswinkel and Elmander partnership again, I don''t see too much promise in it. If you want the threat of playing two strikers in a game then I would play Hooper off Van Wolfswinkel. In fact It would be best if those two are fairly fluid and interchangeable - this would help them get into the game more and encourage them to keep moving rather than just staying as an isolated and static frontman. (Actually I have been impressed with how Man City have been using Aguero and Dzeko/Negredo. They don''t play 4-4-2 or keep one behind the other all the time but show how you can play with two out and out strikers in the modern game.) Of course though we are not Man City and that approach is not always going to suit us. Sometimes having a creative midfielder behind a striker is going to be the way forward either to try and keep more possession, create more through the middle or for extra midfield numbers.

If you want the option of a more creative midfielder behind the striker the player who knows that role the best is Hoolahan. Infact when he is playing well he is rather good at it. I would be tempted to give him more chances in there. However another option might be to play Redmond, Pilkington and Snodgrass as a flexible three behind the striker - this is an untried combination so I have no clue if it would work, but on paper it has the potential to be quite exciting.

However if its Hooper and Van Wolfswinkel or Van Wolfswinkel and Hoolahan on the wings I would be tempted to try Pilkington on the left and Redmond on the right. I don''t think it would be unreasonable to drop Snodgrass on his form alone, but after taking the penalty seemingly against orders it suggests he is getting too big for his boots and needs a reminder it''s not all about him. Can you imagine what Ferguson would have done to him? Anyway I would definitely drop him from the starting line-up for the next match.

Then the final choice is the full-backs. I would certainly give Olsson a run at left back - particularly if Pilkington is starting on the left wing! After this weekend it''s pretty obvious that Garrido and Pilkington are not on the same wavelength at the moment and that doesn''t bode well for good combination play. As for the right back, it''s always a tough call. If Redmond were to start on the right he and Whittaker might be exciting going forward, but might be a weak link going the other way. Martin might be a better option defensively behind Redmond. I basically think it''s a tight call that could be made on either form/confidence, or on a match by match basis in terms of what you want against the opposition.

Anyway I should stop now - this has already gone on longer than I expected!

[Northern Canary 0]

There are some areas of our play which frustrate me, but I do not know if they are down to the tactics, or whether it is something to do with the individual players, time taken to gel, motivation or coaching. Nevertheless, main frustration this season is how poor the passing has been and how every time the ball ricochets or gets deflected somewhere it always goes to an opposition player. We don''t seem to be winning many second balls for whatever reason and we don''t look too sharp.

Tactically there are two areas that I don''t really understand.

The first is how easily players manage to run through our midfield. Sometimes we get situations like Saturday, where players like Weimann manage to counter attack us in acres of space when we have so many people in midfield who tend to sit deep anyway. Other times we have two or three players in central positions but players seem to run through our core.

The second is the use of wide players not playing on the side of their weaker foot. I can understand the occasional benefit of players being able to shoot from outside the box, but I think far more opportunities would be created by getting to the byline, and doing it quickly. Whenever we get to the byline, RvW always moved into space and there have been numerous occasions where a good cut back would create great opportunities which he would score from because his movement in the box is very good. The pace of our attacking play down the wing is hard to understand, because we tend to move up the pitch slowly, exchange between the fullback and winger until he sets off an inswinging cross as if from a set piece, which is easy for defenders to clear and much harder to RvW to convert compared to a ball that is whipped back into him from the byline. I am not critical of Hughton, and do think he is very experienced and tactically knows his stuff, but this is one thing I would be interested to hear him explain.

I can see what system we are trying to play and I can see how it could work, but for whatever reason it doesn''t seem to click into place. My only real clear complaint is how defensively we set up away from home. We only won two away games last year, and both occasions we seemed to completely go for it and bully the other team, which is exactly how so many teams succeed against us.Given the talent in the Premiership, I believe that even if all you want is a point, you''re going to have to score at least one or two goals, because conceding is so likely in the Premiership. I understand the theory of setting up defensively, but we soak up so much pressure that a team can pin us in our own half and we have little chance to counter attack.

In terms of improvement, I would like to see us get much better at counter attacking. If we insist on playing a tight system, then we need to be able to break or else we will be pinned down for the whole game, as we were against Spurs. I would like to see us give it a go away from home. A football pitch is essentially the same wherever we go so I don''t really understand why away games are considered so daunting. I would then like to see us attack at much greater pace with players on their stronger foot, getting to the line and cutting it back, which from what I can tell is very hard to defend against and much easier to score from.

[Dubai Mark 0]

I really believe that CH must continue to evolve the system he has put in place without tinkering with it too much, now I expect many will disagree with that. BUT, for me (and everyone) it''s very clear he has put more quality in the squad and that there is a clear effort to evolve the style of play gradually to allow for more attacking options. I felt that he tinkered with the side Saturday probably as a result of the criticism he has been facing, when he should have held firm, kept Johnson in or Tettey (although I am not a fan like many suddenly appear to be) and simply changed perhaps Redmond and Elmander from the start, so keeping the same basics but just freshening up/changing a couple of positions where the players mentioned had not been contributing enough......and I include Redmond in that, after a great start he has done little in the last couple of matches and the same applies to Elmander to a certain extend....he was actually totally ineffective Saturday (yes, he could certainly play the striker role, but behind and deeper he hasnt really got it). 

My fear now, is that due to the over reaction and subsequent pressure on him CH will tinker more to try and appease, rather than stay solid, hold his nerve and nurture this team through this period and evolve the style like I am sure he intended.