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hertfordyellow

Is Hughton being chastised for just being himself

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Although obviously not too happy with the football being played under Hughton I have found the level of venom and disrespect thrown at a thoroughly decent man (from the terraces and on here) disappointing. This post isn''t designed to preach patience though, more understanding.If we look at Swansea and how they have hired managers over the last 10 years, they have had a clear blueprint of the type of manager (with the type of football they play) in mind. They then find a manager that fits this blueprint. This approach has meant on the whole, seamless transition periods, consistent transfer policies and a coherent singular direction that everyone understands. My point being is that after Lambert, the club hired a manager that was almost completely different in his approach to football and management. Hughton isn''t a poor manager, he likes to keep things tight and organised which although might not be as pleasing on the eye has it''s merits and wins games. A certain Special one has used a "pragmatic style" and has not been critisised as long as it won things.  Lambert is very attacking and likes to experiment with tactics. It''s exciting to watch but is very open and insecure. If continuity in hiring managers is important (and important to Swansea''s success) then Lambert to Hughton was a poor choice and the board need to come in for a fair share of the blame for current unrest. This was not a seamless transition but a huge door slamming shut and another door opening. We can judge Hughton on results sure but I don''t think he can be critisised for being pragmatic in his approach because that''s just who he is. He is a good man and a good coach, he just possible was the wrong choice after Lambert if that was going to be the "Norwich blueprint". That''s not his fault, now if results are bad (which they are) then critisise him for that but the board knew his style when they hired him.A lot of the venom being thrown his way is based on style rather than results. In short people resent he is not Mr Gung Ho Lambert but Mr Organised Hughton. Thats just him being him, critisise the board if you think the style is not right for the club and stop putting all your disappointments on one decent mans shoulders.

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Yes.The board made a very odd choice picking Hughton and a lot of my problem with him is how he is and how he plays football.That said- the reasons I want him gone are the ones I mention on here- I don''t think the board need to go, they just need to learn from this mistake. Hughton is not going to learn to be a different person, the board can learn to not make that decision again.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]Although obviously not too happy with the football being played under Hughton I have found the level of venom and disrespect thrown at a thoroughly decent man (from the terraces and on here) disappointing. This post isn''t designed to preach patience though, more understanding.If we look at Swansea and how they have hired managers over the last 10 years, they have had a clear blueprint of the type of manager (with the type of football they play) in mind. They then find a manager that fits this blueprint. This approach has meant on the whole, seamless transition periods, consistent transfer policies and a coherent singular direction that everyone understands. My point being is that after Lambert, the club hired a manager that was almost completely different in his approach to football and management. Hughton isn''t a poor manager, he likes to keep things tight and organised which although might not be as pleasing on the eye has it''s merits and wins games. A certain Special one has used a "pragmatic style" and has not been critisised as long as it won things.  Lambert is very attacking and likes to experiment with tactics. It''s exciting to watch but is very open and insecure. If continuity in hiring managers is important (and important to Swansea''s success) then Lambert to Hughton was a poor choice and the board need to come in for a fair share of the blame for current unrest. This was not a seamless transition but a huge door slamming shut and another door opening. We can judge Hughton on results sure but I don''t think he can be critisised for being pragmatic in his approach because that''s just who he is. He is a good man and a good coach, he just possible was the wrong choice after Lambert if that was going to be the "Norwich blueprint". That''s not his fault, now if results are bad (which they are) then critisise him for that but the board knew his style when they hired him.A lot of the venom being thrown his way is based on style rather than results. In short people resent he is not Mr Gung Ho Lambert but Mr Organised Hughton. Thats just him being him, critisise the board if you think the style is not right for the club and stop putting all your disappointments on one decent mans shoulders.[/quote]

Best post on here for ages

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Oh I''m not saying sack the board, as you say they just need to learn from this. They need to work out what the Norwich way is and hire based on that criteria rather than just who is available. A big part of the unrest is the huge cultural shift in playing/managing style which could have been avoided.

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I disagree.  I think the majority of it is based on results.  Get results and everything else fades into the background.  Get results, then supporters will not come up with reasons for why the team is failing. Be it style, tactics, the manager''s lack of charisma etc.But I would agree that Hughton is pretty much the polar opposite of his predecessor.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]Oh I''m not saying sack the board, as you say they just need to learn from this. They need to work out what the Norwich way is and hire based on that criteria rather than just who is available. A big part of the unrest is the huge cultural shift in playing/managing style which could have been avoided.[/quote]Totally agree with that.

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At this precise minute, I don''t care whether they are organised, dis-organised, play 7 up front or what style Hoots has, he can stand on the touch line at Stoke upside down with his boxer shorts on his head - WE ARE GETTING RELEGATED if he doesn''t change. What''s different to last season whilst we can compare points tallies at this stage, shots on target etc etc argue between those in favour of pragmatism and the need for patiences over those calling for revolution is that I have watched every game thus far and the players do not look right to me and that is deeply deeply worrying, the noises coming out and the body language and various instances suggest he is not steering the ship properly. I love the bloke, for the record his style at both Birmingham and Newcastle were much more offensive than he has been at Norwich. The board made the correct call and if Hoots just went for it a bit more the fans would be happy, the players would be happy. If he was cautious and we were comfortably mid-table then he is bomb-proof - but we are shipping terrible goals like on Saturday and our play in the final third is pretty dire. No-one is being abusive towards him or unpleasant unlike some previous managers, most like him and think he''s a decent bloke, this ain''t Bruce at Sunderland, but we are getting to a tipping point...

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[quote user="Pyro Pete"]I disagree.  I think the majority of it is based on results.  Get results and everything else fades into the background.  Get results, then supporters will not come up with reasons for why the team is failing. Be it style, tactics, the manager''s lack of charisma etc.But I would agree that Hughton is pretty much the polar opposite of his predecessor.[/quote]Fair point I guess it''s a chicken and egg situation, are people using results to justify criticising  the style or are people picking holes in the style because results haven''t been the best?

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Hertford yellow wrote:

My point being is that after Lambert, the club hired a manager that was almost completely different in his approach to football and management. Hughton isn''t a poor manager, he likes to keep things tight and organised which although might not be as pleasing on the eye has it''s merits and wins games.

What - wins games - oh yes, all five of the last 27!

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[quote user="FleckMillwall"]No-one is being abusive towards him or unpleasant unlike some previous managers[/quote]The chant of " you don''t know what you''re doing" is unpleasant. If your manager called everyone into a room and then said in front of them that you don''t know how to do your job you would count that as being unnecessarily cruel surely?As for style, It was pretty difficult not to be a tad more attacking when you had a Premiership squad in the Championship but I''m not sure he was like that when they went up but I may have mis-remembered.

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[quote user="City 2nd"]Hertford yellow wrote:

My point being is that after Lambert, the club hired a manager that was almost completely different in his approach to football and management. Hughton isn''t a poor manager, he likes to keep things tight and organised which although might not be as pleasing on the eye has it''s merits and wins games.

What - wins games - oh yes, all five of the last 27![/quote]I mean the "pragmatic" style can win games not that it has specifically worked out for us. Bolton, Stoke etc have had some success with this.Also why do people use 27 games as a quote? seems an odd number to me, conveniently leaves out our most successful period under Hughton which I don''t think is fair.

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It''s really nothing to do with his style although defeats on the road maybe more palatable with a bit more up- and-at-them attached.

The style is poor and the results are pretty dire. End of story. At Stoke they were comfortably mid-table more many a year, he tried to get away from Pulisball with the addition of better players but it didn''t work. That''s neither here nor there in the case of Norwich because the issues is we are playing badly and not getting results, were a hairs breathe from relegation and turned up at the Carra against Everton full of optimism with the new players etc and 5 games in I''m looking at the fixure list and thinking we will have 4 points from our opening 8 games which is meltdown time.

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Really interesting OP and something that I discussed with mates before the Villa match. In summer 2012 I would say Swansea and Norwich were very much on a par, then we both lost our managers. Whilst Swansea kept with their blueprint and gambled with an imaginative (now to be considered inspired) appointment in Laudrup we played it very ''safe'' and went for a steady pair of hands. In Hughton that''s exactly what we have, a little too safe for many of us.

We thought perhaps the financial situation and clearing our debt meant it was simply a case of survival being paramount, with plans push on this year, which the investment over the summer would indicate. With the new signings we all got carried away (much talk of Europa League qualification on here!) and expected these highly regarded players to be part of a more fluid attacking style of play, but hertfordyellow is right; we have our steady pair of hands at the helm.

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"Mr Organised Hughton"that has to be a joke"err. well done lads for beating Everton but I was rather expecting us to play out for a draw""oh yes, did I forget to mention that RVW was to take the penalties .............. I did, but you it didn''t think it would matter .. ok nevermind"I think the OP confuses lack of control with organisation. If the players are following the managers instructions then there should not be any need for him to be on the touchline for the whole 90 minutes trying to micro manager the game.I would prefer to have a horse trainer who has got the horse to the peak of fitness saddled by a jockey who knows the course and the horse''s abilities - rather than a trainer who follows the race round on the back of a pick up shouting instructions at every fence.As to the 27 game bad run set against the 10 game good run could it be that after the latter other clubs wised up and Hughton has no plan B. Something we are going to need if we want to stay up this season.

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[quote user="City1st"]"Mr Organised Hughton"that has to be a joke"err. well done lads for beating Everton but I was rather expecting us to play out for a draw""oh yes, did I forget to mention that RVW was to take the penalties .............. I did, but you it didn''t think it would matter .. ok nevermind"I think the OP confuses lack of control with organisation. If the players are following the managers instructions then there should not be any need for him to be on the touchline for the whole 90 minutes trying to micro manager the game.I would prefer to have a horse trainer who has got the horse to the peak of fitness saddled by a jockey who knows the course and the horse''s abilities - rather than a trainer who follows the race round on the back of a pick up shouting instructions at every fence.As to the 27 game bad run set against the 10 game good run could it be that after the latter other clubs wised up and Hughton has no plan B. Something we are going to need if we want to stay up this season.[/quote]He made a priority of organising the team to make them less open. The two week international break was spent working heavily on positioning which led to the 10 match purple patch. I too was v confused by the comments about penalty takers, that''s not what I meant by organised though as you well know.

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At last a voice of reason making good points, If we want gung ho football then he is clearly the wrong choice, however in the long run a period of stability ( providing we start picking up points ) could be the right way. Only time will tell

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"][quote user="City1st"]"Mr Organised Hughton"that has to be a joke"err. well done lads for beating Everton but I was rather expecting us to play out for a draw""oh yes, did I forget to mention that RVW was to take the penalties .............. I did, but you it didn''t think it would matter .. ok nevermind"I think the OP confuses lack of control with organisation. If the players are following the managers instructions then there should not be any need for him to be on the touchline for the whole 90 minutes trying to micro manager the game.I would prefer to have a horse trainer who has got the horse to the peak of fitness saddled by a jockey who knows the course and the horse''s abilities - rather than a trainer who follows the race round on the back of a pick up shouting instructions at every fence.As to the 27 game bad run set against the 10 game good run could it be that after the latter other clubs wised up and Hughton has no plan B. Something we are going to need if we want to stay up this season.[/quote]He made a priority of organising the team to make them less open. The two week international break was spent working heavily on positioning which led to the 10 match purple patch. I too was v confused by the comments about penalty takers, that''s not what I meant by organised though as you well know.[/quote]

so why did this purple patch not continue ?was there something missing in the organisation ?did it only have 10 game lifespan ?I thought being organised meant you had organised everything that you have responsibility for - that tends to be what being organised meansbut apparently notas we are now entering the ''what did the Romans ever do for us territory'' .......Hughton is organised, well apart from........

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[quote user="City1st"][quote user="hertfordyellow"][quote user="City1st"]"Mr Organised Hughton"that has to be a joke"err. well done lads for beating Everton but I was rather expecting us to play out for a draw""oh yes, did I forget to mention that RVW was to take the penalties .............. I did, but you it didn''t think it would matter .. ok nevermind"I think the OP confuses lack of control with organisation. If the players are following the managers instructions then there should not be any need for him to be on the touchline for the whole 90 minutes trying to micro manager the game.I would prefer to have a horse trainer who has got the horse to the peak of fitness saddled by a jockey who knows the course and the horse''s abilities - rather than a trainer who follows the race round on the back of a pick up shouting instructions at every fence.As to the 27 game bad run set against the 10 game good run could it be that after the latter other clubs wised up and Hughton has no plan B. Something we are going to need if we want to stay up this season.[/quote]He made a priority of organising the team to make them less open. The two week international break was spent working heavily on positioning which led to the 10 match purple patch. I too was v confused by the comments about penalty takers, that''s not what I meant by organised though as you well know.[/quote]

so why did this purple patch not continue ?was there something missing in the organisation ?did it only have 10 game lifespan ?I thought being organised meant you had organised everything that you have responsibility for - that tends to be what being organised meansbut apparently notas we are now entering the ''what did the Romans ever do for us territory'' .......Hughton is organised, well apart from........[/quote]Is football an exact science? there are many variables in a game, biggest being the opposition performance, others being injuries, ref, luck. The ten game purple patch can be halted by a combination of these variables rather than an approach only working for 10 games. I think you have rather a simplistic view of football if you think one man can control the exact outcome of a football match. How many clean sheets or conceding of one goal was there last season? how does that compare to the season before? Would suggest a level of organisation to me but hey we all see football differently I guess.

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Kidderminster Exile wrote the following post at 2013-09-24 7:56 PM:

At last a voice of reason making good points, If we want gung ho football then he is clearly the wrong choice, however in the long run a period of stability ( providing we start picking up points ) could be the right way. Only time will tell

Why is attacking football GUNG HO? Man City, Utd, Spurs, Liverpool, Southampton, Swansea, Everton, and many more prem clubs play attractive attacking football. The object of the sport is to win the match by scoring more goals than your opponents - to do that you have to have a degree of attacking intent - quite simply Hughton doesn''t (refer to the post following the match v Everton last season)!

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We can''t score we can''t defend; we can''t change a game,no confidence no discipline. The manager should take full responsibility for this.

Act now McNally, i can smell the championship already.

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[quote user="City 2nd"]Kidderminster Exile wrote the following post at 2013-09-24 7:56 PM:

At last a voice of reason making good points, If we want gung ho football then he is clearly the wrong choice, however in the long run a period of stability ( providing we start picking up points ) could be the right way. Only time will tell

Why is attacking football GUNG HO? Man City, Utd, Spurs, Liverpool, Southampton, Swansea, Everton, and many more prem clubs play attractive attacking football. The object of the sport is to win the match by scoring more goals than your opponents - to do that you have to have a degree of attacking intent - quite simply Hughton doesn''t (refer to the post following the match v Everton last season)![/quote]mmm I think this quote after the Everton game is being abused a bit while taken out of context. Because of the late nature of the goal he had kind of accepted a draw but the players pulled it out of the bag in the dying minutes to secure a win. It didn''t mean he was annoyed because we won surely?I do want to point out also that I am disappointed at the approach to games too. I want us to use the ball better and have a go (especially away). My OP wasn''t to defend Hughton but put forward the notion that he''s not a bad manager just possibly a bad fit for the club.

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"I think you have rather a simplistic view of football if you think one man can control the exact outcome of a football match."

or

"He made a priority of organising the team to make them less open. The

two week international break was spent working heavily on positioning

which led to the 10 match purple patch."you takes your pickeither one man can or one man can''t

ps it is the result of a football match ... as in football results

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[quote user="Yellow Shirt"]

The board made a very odd choice picking Hughton.[/quote]

 

A good choice? McNally made it. A bad choice? The board made it.

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city1st - The two quotes you picked out were from different parts of threads talking about different things.

The first was about you inferring that the end of the 10 match unbeaten run was purely because of him and his tactics not "the game" as a whole. The second was to highlight what I meant by "organised" as you seem to be playing on what organised meant when I made it quite clear it was about defensive organisation.

Thats kind of the problem with taking a line out of a post, out of context and quoting it as evidence. I notice you do it a lot, I think you like to do it to be purposely antagonistic in an attempt to de-rail threads. If it makes you happy so be it, most would prefer some proper debate though.

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