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Rogue Baboon

Old Fashioned 4-4-2

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Many people seem to believe that playing 4-4-2 is dead - the sheer lack of prem teams doing it seems to back this up. But with Hooper & RVW in the squad, could we still give it a go?

Providing we play with wingers prepared to beat their man on the outside and whip balls across the 6 yard box you can only imagine we would offer an incredible amount of threat than we have already seen this season. Too many times have we seen Snodgrass cut in and float a cross into the keepers arms and we are crying out for a different approach - could 4-4-2 be the way?

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Pilks, Redmond have the ability to do that providing wingers are played on th correct side.

And is it too ridiculous to try Snodgrass on the left? Although his performances this season haven''t exactly set th world on fire

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Snodgrass has neither the pace or the trickery to hit the goal line ........ either side. His crosses from coming inside are easy to defend against as has been seen all season.

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If we are to play wingers we need two in the box- that much is obvious to me. I think Hughton has to decide on either playing one up front or playing wingers. I also have no idea where Snodgrass should fit into the team... not a winger nor a wide forward, good player but doesn''t fit Hughton''s chosen style as far as I can see and he isn''t good enough to build a team around in this league even when he is on form.

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[quote user="Yellow Wall"]As long as we can try to hit the goal line to get crosses in - it may be.

But to do that there will be no room for Snodgrass![/quote]

Why would we need to get to the byline to cross? Why not early balls in? Becks never had the pace to beat a full back but his deliveries often took out all 4 defenders and landed straight on the head or foot of his strikers!

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It is not always necessary to get to the byline but what has been missing so often are crosses that are put in behind the defence and not straight at the defence from Snodgrass previously cutting inside.

I fully agree that Beckham could put in early crosses to great effect but I can never remember him coming inside to change the angle of his delivery by putting the ball in with his left foot.

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[quote user="Yellow Wall"]It is not always necessary to get to the byline but what has been missing so often are crosses that are put in behind the defence and not straight at the defence from Snodgrass previously cutting inside.

I fully agree that Beckham could put in early crosses to great effect but I can never remember him coming inside to change the angle of his delivery by putting the ball in with his left foot.[/quote]

Yep totally agree. The OP''s thread i replied to implies that we need a change of personnel on the wings of which i also agree.

Early balls played in by wingers who cross with there natural kicking foot can play those balls in behind the defence.

I also think this is where we would see the best in either Wolfswinkle, Hooper or Elmander and even Becchio. They can all make intelligent runs and in my opinion would suite this type of service.

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The problem with 4-4-2 isn''t attacking, it''s more to do with defending/ball retention.

 

The Tottenham game, where Norwich played with Elmander in the hole, but he was more a striker than midfielder, showed that with only 2 central midfielders you will see very little of the ball when playing against a team who have a 3 man midfield. Fer and Johnson couldn''t get anywhere near the ball as Eriksen, Paulinho and Dembele could easily pass it around as there was always a man spare (compounded by Siggurdson coming central a lot as well).

 

Games are won and lost in the fight for control of the area of the pitch just in front of the 18 yard box - by losing a midfielder it is incredibly hard to win this battle and it allows opposing teams to build constant pressure just in front of your defenders.

 

It''s all well and good having 2 out-and-out wingers and 2 strikers, but if you team never have the ball they are merely spectators in the game. Norwich could beat Southampton because both teams tried 2 man midfields, and Norwich''s paring of Fer and Johnson was better than Wanyama and Schniderlin.

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The problem with 4-4-2 isn''t attacking, it''s more to do with defending/ball retention.

The Tottenham game, where Norwich played with Elmander in the hole, but he was more a striker than midfielder, showed that with only 2 central midfielders you will see very little of the ball when playing against a team who have a 3 man midfield. Fer and Johnson couldn''t get anywhere near the ball as Eriksen, Paulinho and Dembele could easily pass it around as there was always a man spare (compounded by Siggurdson coming central a lot as well).

Games are won and lost in the fight for control of the area of the pitch just in front of the 18 yard box - by losing a midfielder it is incredibly hard to win this battle and it allows opposing teams to build constant pressure just in front of your defenders.

It''s all well and good having 2 out-and-out wingers and 2 strikers, but if you team never have the ball they are merely spectators in the game. Norwich could beat Southampton because both teams tried 2 man midfields, and Norwich''s paring of Fer and Johnson was better than Wanyama and Schniderlin.

I still think we can play the 4-4-1-1 even with two out and out wingers. Its just a matter of transition.

When attacking down the flanks we go to 2 up front with possibly the other winger making that late run in to the box so making it at least 3 in the mix for the crosses.

Then we revert back to 4-4-1-1 while defending and for ball retention.

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Surely we are talking about 4-4-2 and not 4-2-4.

With wingers keeping wide in their own halves they help to surrender the space in the centre of the midfield.

Wingers who tuck in, in their own half, narrow the midfield and restrict the space available to the opposition.

In the opposition half they give us width, in our half they help to compact the the midfield by making it narrower.

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Surely we are talking about 4-4-2 and not 4-2-4.

With wingers keeping wide in their own halves they help to surrender the space in the centre of the midfield.

Wingers who tuck in, in their own half, narrow the midfield and restrict the space available to the opposition.

In the opposition half they give us width, in our half they help to compact the the midfield by making it narrower.

Which ever way you look at it, its a matter of transition. While defending yes play wingers who will restrict the space available for the opposition but when we win the ball back they revert to there natural positions.

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[quote user="Yellow Wall"]Surely we are talking about 4-4-2 and not 4-2-4. With wingers keeping wide in their own halves they help to surrender the space in the centre of the midfield. Wingers who tuck in, in their own half, narrow the midfield and restrict the space available to the opposition. In the opposition half they give us width, in our half they help to compact the the midfield by making it narrower.[/quote]

 

That just results in having two very isolated strikers as both wingers are sitting deep when Norwich win the ball, especially against teams who play a 4-2-3-1 as the opposing wingers push higher up the pitch forcing the defending wingers further back, even behind their own central midfield. Being so far back means they are too far from the strikers to be able to support in attacks, or launch counter attacks.

 

4-4-2 places all the teams creativity on wide players, who by the very nature of their game are less influencial as they are stuck out on the edge of the pitch, far better to have a central creative player who can influence the game in many areas. This is the player Norwich have been missing ever since Hughton has taken charge.

 

I''d say Norwich would have more joy in using players like Murphy and Redmond in a 4-2-3-1, where they are less responsible for defending as two central defensive midfielders can cover and break up the play. However, as mentioned before the lack of that central player to link it all up in the problem. I still think Fer and Tettey holding with Howson in front of them would be the best solution, but for some reason it has never been the starting line up (although was used towards the end of the Everton game and made Norwich the most likely scorers).

 

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[quote user="lharman7"]The problem with 4-4-2 isn''t attacking, it''s more to do with defending/ball retention. The Tottenham game, where Norwich played with Elmander in the hole, but he was more a striker than midfielder, showed that with only 2 central midfielders you will see very little of the ball when playing against a team who have a 3 man midfield. Fer and Johnson couldn''t get anywhere near the ball as Eriksen, Paulinho and Dembele could easily pass it around as there was always a man spare (compounded by Siggurdson coming central a lot as well). Games are won and lost in the fight for control of the area of the pitch just in front of the 18 yard box - by losing a midfielder it is incredibly hard to win this battle and it allows opposing teams to build constant pressure just in front of your defenders. It''s all well and good having 2 out-and-out wingers and 2 strikers, but if you team never have the ball they are merely spectators in the game. Norwich could beat Southampton because both teams tried 2 man midfields, and Norwich''s paring of Fer and Johnson was better than Wanyama and Schniderlin. I still think we can play the 4-4-1-1 even with two out and out wingers. Its just a matter of transition. When attacking down the flanks we go to 2 up front with possibly the other winger making that late run in to the box so making it at least 3 in the mix for the crosses. Then we revert back to 4-4-1-1 while defending and for ball retention.[/quote]

 

This is it, our problem is who do you play behind the striker in the no.10 position.  Against Spurs it was Elmander but he didn''t contribute to defending when they had the ball, so as above when they had the ball Fer and Johnson were outnumbered and we had very little possession.  For the Prem especially away games you need 3 natural midfielders to play these positions, we are struggling with who should fill that number 10 slot.

 

For Stoke my feeling is we should go with Johnson and Tettey as DMs, and Fer behind RVW.  This gives us scope to keep possession on the ground but also gives us Fer as a realistic outlet for long balls , which you have to have against Stoke.  If you''re playing long balls to RVW against Stoke, you''re going to lose possession most of the time and that makes it easy for them to close us down high up the pitch thus stopping us playing it on the ground either.  You need to be able to mix it up.

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some good points all round I thought. I personally don''t think 4-4-2 as a formation is dead. Old fashioned 4-4-2 with its rigid lines and predictability almost certainly, but 4-4-2 in the sense of 4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 strikers still has a place in the modern game, it just depends on how you play it.

I have been interested to see how Man City have been using two out and out goal-scorers in Aguero and Dzeko/Negredo fluidly moving around that central area with Navas as a classic winger on one side and someone like Nasri drifting in from the other wing. Similarly I think with the players we have 4-4-2 in some form has got to be an option for us, however as others have pointed out, 4-4-2 for a team like norwich is not going to work well in all our games in the premiership. Sometimes we are going to need the influence of another midfielder in there to pass and move and create rather than someone who is just looking to get goals.

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