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Fleck@Millwall

Expectations and Realism

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In our first season up I thought any win was miraculous and when we won at Bolton to get our first win on the road I nearly fainted. Last season, I just prayed for survival and when Wigan went down at Arsenal I needed to lie down.I also vividly recall in years past listening to 606 when Charlton fans called for Curbs to be fired or Bolton fans complained about Big Sam or Evertonians were starting a campaign against Moyes and thinking your totally mental and just think yourselves grateful that you play in that league. The point I''m making is that we do need to maybe keep our ambitions in check and keep some rationale. We spent big but only to keep up with the Jones. Indeed, the money outlay by City just about matched or was less than comparable clubs like Swansea, Saints, West Ham etc. I am massively disappointed and advocate change (although Stoke may change things) but this needs to be tempered with realism about how far we have come and where, realistically, we can expect to be.

What now constitutes a successful season at Norwich?

What expectations do we have of any manager coming in? pretty football, more endeavour away from home?

Where are we as a club in this respect. I also think these questions would need to be addressed before any new appointment is made which maybe difficult because if we are struggling we go for pragmatism to ensure survival which longer-term would be unpalatable to fans.

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Each team ,year on year, brings in new faces. Teams like United have had to rebuild 3 or 4 times whilst still maintaining form. Thats a very hard thing to do. Our expectations are lower. Survival with a hint bravado

The reality is, that just like Lambert before him, Hughton has brought in new players but does owe the "old guard" from the previous season to rise to the challenge learn, improve and adapt.

Those that can''t sadly move on to pastures new with thanks and gratitude from all the fans at Carrow Road. They are replaced by the new regime.

Hughton has done something to solve the problems of last year but our present situation is one of transition where staff, players and tactics are evolving. This revolution where ultimately players are discarded is a sad fact of life and what we are seeing on the pitch sometimes is a reflection of the turmoil that occurs on and off the pitch.

The Lambert years were of a mostly of UK based team. This season i am sure the dressing room is a very different place and perhaps the bond that existed in the past is different, not so close perhaps.

I do think this present conundrum is solvable and is helped if you play your best players in their best posItions. The reality is that we all have to adapt including the manager, if he is unable to then the revolution will include himself, sadly.

H

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Good point, if you look back to the team that won us promotion to the Prem (never mind our team in L1) there aren''t many left.  It is unavoidable that if you''re progressing, you need better players. 

 

It''s not easy to get the new players to gel and develop the same commitment to the team which served us so well the past few years.  Which is one of the reasons I was so pleased with the fight-back on Tuesday, players like Fer and Hooper were plugging away and we got an equalizer in the 95th minute.

 

There are quite a few posters on here who wrote off Hughton last season and for me they are like the Charlton fans who used to complain.  Especially when you look at the uninspiring list of replacement candidates, I think it''s madness to talk about replacing Hughton this early in the season.

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I think pretty much everyone has realistic expectations and ambitions and while none sane expect us in Europe, we hope that we can survive another season and become an established Prem side. The problem is that people are increasingly worried that what looked to be good progress towards that goal is in jeopardy, and is not being helped by the current management. There are many explanations being offered and some have very strong views on whether a change in management team is or is not required. But CH, having spent so much money, seems incapable of getting performances to a level where we can have comfort that survival is realistic. So I don''t agree at all that expectations are too high.

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Before the fixture list came out I thought we could get a 9th/10th finish. When the fixture list came out and I saw our end of season run in, I then thought we could possibly get 12th/13th.

Now, seeing that Hughton tactics are the same as last season I think, if he stays, we could finish anywhere from 15th-19th. I think Palace will finish bottom.

Last season I just wanted to stay up as when Lambert left us I thought we were favourites for relegation. However, 11th position flattered us completely. People say you finish where you deserve to finish, and whilst that''s true to a degree, we could have easily gone down were it not for playing two teams who were already ''on the beach'', as they say. We will not have that same luxury with our run in this season.

If we are in a similar position as last season going into our final 4-5 games I think we will be playing Championship football next season. Mind you, at least CH has a decent record in that league.

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I read someone on here saying that McNally would do the ''right thing'' (i.e. sack Houghton) because he knows what he''s doing.

I agree, he does know what he''s doing and he''s not so STUPID to jeopordise what we have, what he has built, on a knee-jerk reaction after a handful of games. Especially when exactly the same thing happened at the start of last season and look how that finished.

For those talking about dressing room disquiet, splits and bust ups, i refer them to the photo gallery of the game on Tuesday. I defy anyone to say that is a team that''s not united. Of course they will have disagreements, for heaven''s sake i have bust ups on the 5-aside court when we''re getting beat but the team is still strong and together. Fortunately they and Houghon don''t behave like children when things aren''t going their way and have a tantrum and expect to start sacking people. Harisboro''s point about non UK origin/based players potentially being harder to integrate/settle in is one i made last season and got absolutely slaughtered for daring to suggest we should be careful about the numbers of foreign players we bring in. Of course i''m not against inporting exciting foreign talent but it is absolutely clueless if people are going to just assume a great team will just happen the minute they walk in the door.

Houghton is a methodical manager who is slower to change something than other managers but that is not a reason to sack him. It''s also not always a good thing to completely change formation, personnel as soon as something doesn''t immediately work. We have yet to even try certain combinations and players - Hooper and Elmander/RvW up top, Fer and Tettey centre, Tettey, Fer and Hooly as attacking midfield trio behind RvW or Hooper, Olsson and Redmond on the wings...

So for the love of god can we JUST give this team and the man who built it a chance - a chance to at least work out our strongest 11 because we have no idea yet. If people want instant success i suggest they grow up and stop following football!


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"Especially when exactly the same thing happened at the start of last season and look how that finished."

I do see your point, but I would argue that either side of that 10 game run, we were woeful. Apart from the two final games of the season too. Utterly inept at certain times i.e. away at Wigan and Stoke.

Yes, I would give Hughton more time. Even if we lose at Stoke. However, how much time do you give him taking into account our end of season run of games?? Assuming we maybe get 1-2 points from those games, we need to have achieved our final points total by game 33/4.

I don''t believe in Hughton, but he does deserve more time.

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Also, I would say that the 10 game unbeaten run did include many draws and poor performances. Let''s not kid ourselves that we were on fire for 10 games.

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At some point RowDee you are going to have to accept that what happened last season will have no bearing on what happens this season. There will come a point where the only measure will be that of what the current players achieve. But until then, if we must harp on about last season, let''s be clear that your two beachball games are totally irrelevant. We would have comfortably stayed up even if we''d lost them both 25-0. Although why anyone would assume we''d have lost at home to WBA at any stage of the season is beyond me. Our home record suggest we''d have at least got a point whoever was on the pools panel.

 

  

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"and when we won at Bolton to get our first win on the road I nearly fainted"http://brontehoroine.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/fainting2.jpg''wake up dear, they''re still playing added time''

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"Before the fixture list came out I thought we could get a 9th/10th finish. When the fixture list came out and I saw our end of season run in, I then thought we could possibly get 12th/13th."

 

So, if the fixture list had been really, really nice, by that reckoning we could have managed 3rd/4th?

 

This "logic" is bizarre. The ordering of the fixtures is random, and so is their impact on our end-of-season position.

 

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I agree with the first post. I believe the premiership is made up of the top 8, then the rest of us. I would have loved to see Norwich take 9th but now realisitcally will be happy with anything above the bottom 3. The squad are good enough to stay in the league..

as another poster mentioned we spent big to keep up and so should keep up with the main pack (9th to 17th ish)

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I expect us to survive, - just. We have lashed out money and bought some good players, but so have other clubs. We have started rather badly for a number of reasons, but injuries to Hooper, Bassong and even Benno have cramped us a little.

Where we still lack is in another quality striker, a quality midfielder and also defenders with pace - Turner, Garrido Martin  and Whittaker in particular. The defence is much improved, but struggles with teams who move the ball quickly around our box, and with wingers with pace. There could be the need for as many six signings here, with perhaps one in January and the remainder in the summer next year.

 

The most urgent I think is the midfielder. At present apart from Leroy we have no real class midfielders - able to dominate, and able to attack and defend. We have stoppers and we have creators, but no-one who can do both except Leroy.

 

Immediately, with our major players virtually all fit we need quickly for them to learn how to play with each other. Fer''s pass through the defence showed how a less tired Hooper will score goals for us, and RvW needs something similar but has had little so far. We need our wingers to get quickly to the by-line, and hit crosses quickly either at head height of on the floor. If the crosses are hit with pace they are very difficult to defend. So far, sorry Snoddy, we have taken our time to get down the field and by the time we reach the by-line the defence are all back in position.

 

We have the makings of a good premiership team, comfortably in mid table. To get higher we need more quality throughout the team.

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The run in is troubling just bacause the pressure is on to reach a safe position after 33 or so games but the fixtures before then are easier than last year by definition so we''d have no one to blame but ourselves if we fail.

There might be a disadvantage in that the top teams are more likely to be in need of points to the end anyway for CL places etc. but this whole one the beach idea is massively overstated anyway as we were safe when we played Man C so weren''t we on the beach too? Truth is all teams come and go through the season and you''ll play some who are on form and others with injuries etc, you just have to make the most of it and it probably evens out.

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I would say another quality defender would do for now. Just seen a sky article about bargain buys - of the 8 they list, 2 are norwich (wolf and redmond)

i think wolf and hooper will do the job with decent backup (becchio elmander)

midfield fer and redmond are playing well, hopefully pilks and snodgrass will up their game a bit.

a short term aim for norwich should be 8th place in a couple of seasons.

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Good post Sal. As for your bottom line this league is such that every year to stay where we are we need more quality throughout the team. That''s why taking any money away from the budget would be so costly. Finish 9th this year and go next year with what we''ve got could be fatal.

 

 

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Hardly think my theory of finishing lower because of our run in against the big sides is "bizarre". I find it "bizarre" that someone would think this wouldn''t have an impact on our league position.

We need to be very near or above the 40 point mark by game 33!

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Martin, Nige and others raise a pertinent point.

We''ve been raised recently on seat of your pants stuff under Lambert, then the roller coaster ride last season that so nearly ended in disaster. All in all, exciting stuff, and it''s fair to say, that because of that, and the money splashed in the summer, many people have got expectations that could be viewed as unrealistic. I think what is happening now is that the penny is dropping to fans that, this is just about as good as it will ever get for City. A mid table finish, steering clear of the relegation dogfight, and maybe, just maybe a lucrative run in the Cups. There will always be the yellow tinted specs brigade who convince themselves that challenging for honours or a Euro place is just round the corner, but the more balanced of us realise that this is not goint to happen. Ever.

In the end, it all comes back to the age old question....ie , come Feb /Mar onwards would we rather be attending games where we are just going through the motions of attaining a tenth place finish, or would we prefer nailbiting relegation dogfights or a scramble for the automatic places or the play offs. Undoubtedly the latter is more exciting, but basically, people are going to have to get used to the idea that with our squad, the best we can hope for is mid table safety.

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We are small fish in a big pond and there are at least a dozen other clubs for whom this is also the case. Some people find this hard to accept, hence the present gnashing of teeth based on the first 5 games.NCFC supporters think we should be big enough and good enough to stay in the Premier League. The supporters of all the other clubs in this league also think they are big enough and good enough to stay up.Every year three go down.Go figure.

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@ Ricardo

We are small fish in a big pond, but I''d like to see us at least play exciting, attacking football and if we go down as a result, I''m ok with that. If it''s a choice between having a right good go at the opposition and losing or being defensive and still losing, I know which one I''d prefer.

Just because we''re not a big Prem team doesn''t mean we have to play rubbish, boring football each and every week.

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[quote user="Row D Seat 7"]@ Ricardo

We are small fish in a big pond, but I''d like to see us at least play exciting, attacking football and if we go down as a result, I''m ok with that. If it''s a choice between having a right good go at the opposition and losing or being defensive and still losing, I know which one I''d prefer.

Just because we''re not a big Prem team doesn''t mean we have to play rubbish, boring football each and every week.[/quote]Indeed, we all like to see a nice open game with City winning and I am sure you will agree that its much easier to achieve that aim when you are a big fish in a small pond eg. Us in the Champs and League 1.Yes, I like to be entertained but losing 4-5 in a crackerjack game does not compensate me for nil points. When we go one nil up in a game I would be quite content for the ref to blow for full time, even if it were after 15 minutes. Now I realise not everyone would agree with that. I belong to the late Ron Saunders school who once famously commented something along these lines after a sterile City victory in 1971. "In football it''s the result that counts and any entertainment is entirely coincidental".Perhaps I''m alone in my full and total agreement with Ron.And have now donned my tin hat again.[:D]

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[quote user="Row D Seat 7"]@ Ricardo

We are small fish in a big pond, but I''d like to see us at least play exciting, attacking football and if we go down as a result, I''m ok with that. If it''s a choice between having a right good go at the opposition and losing or being defensive and still losing, I know which one I''d prefer.

Just because we''re not a big Prem team doesn''t mean we have to play rubbish, boring football each and every week.[/quote]

The problem is RDS7, that , as fans , who pay the money, we do not wish to see mechanical, sterile football every week. But I''m sure that Hughton will point out that the vast majority of teams of City''s size who have made a fist of being in the Prem for a number of yrs have not done it by playing pretty , open, flowing football. He will doubtless point to WBA, Bolton, Blackburn, and best of all, Stoke. As further proof he''ll point to Charlton, Blackpool Hull (last time) and Burnley as to what happens when you try and play football against Prem teams.

I''m not saying that I subscribe to this view, but taking a balanced interpretation of what needs to be done to ensure Prem safety. But, that said, I really do not think that there''s much future in the idea of simply going out each week not to lose, as has been the CH mantra of late.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Row D Seat 7"]@ Ricardo

We are small fish in a big pond, but I''d like to see us at least play exciting, attacking football and if we go down as a result, I''m ok with that. If it''s a choice between having a right good go at the opposition and losing or being defensive and still losing, I know which one I''d prefer.

Just because we''re not a big Prem team doesn''t mean we have to play rubbish, boring football each and every week.[/quote]Indeed, we all like to see a nice open game with City winning and I am sure you will agree that its much easier to achieve that aim when you are a big fish in a small pond eg. Us in the Champs and League 1.Yes, I like to be entertained but losing 4-5 in a crackerjack game does not compensate me for nil points. When we go one nil up in a game I would be quite content for the ref to blow for full time, even if it were after 15 minutes. Now I realise not everyone would agree with that. I belong to the late Ron Saunders school who once famously commented something along these lines after a sterile City victory in 1971. "In football it''s the result that counts and any entertainment is entirely coincidental".Perhaps I''m alone in my full and total agreement with Ron.And have now donned my tin hat again.[:D][/quote]

 

Well now Rickyyyyyy.. you were at the agm like I was and I strongly suspect that the board have taken the mantra according to Ron and adapted it to say "It''s remaining in the Premier League that counts and any entertainment is entirely coincidental".

 

 

 

 

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I''m with Ricardo on this, and at last we have a thread with some good realistic views. I am convinced that CH is evolving our style to a slightly more offensive, sure its a bit slow to happen for some, but ultimately it will be offensive enough to nick us a few more points away from home and secure our place in this tough league for another season. 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Row D Seat 7"]@ Ricardo

We are small fish in a big pond, but I''d like to see us at least play exciting, attacking football and if we go down as a result, I''m ok with that. If it''s a choice between having a right good go at the opposition and losing or being defensive and still losing, I know which one I''d prefer.

Just because we''re not a big Prem team doesn''t mean we have to play rubbish, boring football each and every week.[/quote]Indeed, we all like to see a nice open game with City winning and I am sure you will agree that its much easier to achieve that aim when you are a big fish in a small pond eg. Us in the Champs and League 1.Yes, I like to be entertained but losing 4-5 in a crackerjack game does not compensate me for nil points. When we go one nil up in a game I would be quite content for the ref to blow for full time, even if it were after 15 minutes. Now I realise not everyone would agree with that. I belong to the late Ron Saunders school who once famously commented something along these lines after a sterile City victory in 1971. "In football it''s the result that counts and any entertainment is entirely coincidental".Perhaps I''m alone in my full and total agreement with Ron.And have now donned my tin hat again.[:D][/quote]

 

Well now Rickyyyyyy.. you were at the agm like I was and I strongly suspect that the board have taken the mantra according to Ron and adapted it to say "It''s remaining in the Premier League that counts and any entertainment is entirely coincidental".

 

 

 

 

[/quote]They might not say it Nigel but you can bet they are thinking it..As far as I''m concerned, if we win then I''ve been entertained and if we don''t I haven''t so in effect I''m very easy to please. Keep getting the 3 points and I''ll keep coming.I still get the strong impression on here that most people would be far happier with a promotion push in the Championship because we are bound to bounce back aren''t we?Remember how well that worked between 1995 and 2004?

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Well Swansea seem to make a very decent job of staying in the league whilst playing attractive football.

Just because a club may have x many world class players in their squad, doesn''t mean they are the only ones entitled to play attractive football. Others can play it too. There''s nothing stopping them, only themselves.

Hughton obviously believes we don''t have the squad in order to play attractive and attacking football. He seems to have a belief that it''s a squad best suited to play limited, defensive, boring football. That''s up to him. However, it''s this attitude that will see him lose his job here, which I believe will happen before this coming Christmas.

What Hughton''s style of management is effectively telling us is that only 19 league are any use to us. The other 19 (away from home) are of no use whatsoever, because we will always pop to an away ground hoping and praying for the point, but then we''ll return to oh so beautiful Norfolk with sweet sweet nothing.

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"Hardly think my theory of finishing lower because of our run in against the big sides is "bizarre". I find it "bizarre" that someone would think this wouldn''t have an impact on our league position."

 

But we still have to play all the big sides anyway. As do all the other clubs. There is no advantage to playing all the top sides, or indeed all the other 19 sides, in a "particular" order.

 

If your notion held water, the bookies'' odds would go shooting up and down on the day the fixtures are published, to reflect the relative difficulty of the clubs'' particular sequences of fixtures.

 

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B****y Swansea again. 

 

I''m firmly in the camp that would prefer a City win regardless.  If it''s a dull game but we win, I''ll come away happy.  It can be a thriller but if we lose, I''ll be gutted.

 

Those who say they prefer the football to be entertaining tend to give us false dilemmas, e.g. they would rather us to play attractive football and lose, than play dour football and lose.  Well, duh.  I''d prefer that we win.

 

Tuesday was one of the most entertaining games I have been to since, well since Man City away to be honest.  But if we''d lost, I wouldn''t have cared about the entertainment factor.  And if we were to play that openly against sides in the Prem, we''d get taken to the cleaners.

 

I was not happy with our approach against Spurs, not because we were cautious but because we sat back so deep and conceded possession, inviting them to attack us - which has not been our usual approach under Hughton.  This was partly because we had a more "attacking" formation with Elmander and RVW up front leaving the midfield outnumbered.  I would rather go 4-5-1 and get a decent amount of the ball in midfield.

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I''ll concede that Swansea play some good stuff, Row 7. But they are no more an established Prem club than we are. On a few occasions last season, teams that worked them out stopped them dead in their tracks.

I never wish injury on anyone, but, one does wonder what would happen if Michu got crocked or lost form .

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