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ricardo

Set up not to lose

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I am always calm Houston. Well......

I just find it annoying that people rewrite history.

Wins against Arsenal and United=boring.

Ten matches unbeaten=fluke.

Wins against Brom and City=on the beach.

Give Hughton a bit of credit, whether you want him gone or not.

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Dream on ricardo. Your OP is a fail. Kudos to you, though, for not backing down.

Besides Villa got 8 shots? Sounds like they were able to do something in the final 1/3. We had 2 shots last week against a team that was down and out. Now they''re on top of the w orld. And they didn''t beat a crappy Villa who we lost to. They beat title contenders for the second time this season.

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[quote user="Houston Canary"]Dream on ricardo. Your OP is a fail. Kudos to you, though, for not backing down.

Besides Villa got 8 shots? Sounds like they were able to do something in the final 1/3. We had 2 shots last week against a team that was down and out. Now they''re on top of the w orld. And they didn''t beat a crappy Villa who we lost to. They beat title contenders for the second time this season.[/quote]If you want to defeat your own argument, who am I to complain. Especially when you make up your own statistics against Villa. A team we battered for 60 minutes yet are now suddenly world beaters because of a backs to the wall win against Man City. Despite sitting deep and taking another battering they again came away with the points.Perhaps Lambert should let CH into the secret of dropping deep and winning. He certainly made it work for him recently.

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I know, RS. That''s why I ssid likely.

ricardo, I''m speaking for myself about entertainment value. I love a good result but I also love a good game. Both matter. And for casual fans, entertainment is way more important.

Herman, I was thrilled by the late wins last year and so excited Hughton had found the winning and exciting formula. Now I''m disappointed because it looks like he''s forgotten it but I''m optimistic he''s relocated it after what happened Tuesday.

Peace, brothers. I don''t want Hughton out. Yet.

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[quote user="Houston Canary"]I know, RS. That''s why I ssid likely.

ricardo, I''m speaking for myself about entertainment value. I love a good result but I also love a good game. Both matter. And for casual fans, entertainment is way more important.

Herman, I was thrilled by the late wins last year and so excited Hughton had found the winning and exciting formula. Now I''m disappointed because it looks like he''s forgotten it but I''m optimistic he''s relocated it after what happened Tuesday.

Peace, brothers. I don''t want Hughton out. Yet.[/quote]I wouldn''t know, I''ve never been a casual fan.[;)]

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[quote user="Houston Canary"]What stats did I make up?[/quote]Read your post,"we had two shots".Even the BBC gives us 12 As for shots on target they only give us one so I guess the penalty save and the one from Hooper must have been back passes and the blocked efforts must have been sailing so well wide even to be counted.And I haven''t even mentioned those that we narrowly defected by a defender.The 64% possession and God knows how many crosses obviously only happened in my imagination because I keep reading about how we sat so deep that we never made a chance.

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I thought the Villa/Man City match today was an even more extreme version of our match last week. At times Villa looked so dominated it was almost embarrassing, but had an inordinate amount of luck and somehow ended up winning the game.

Whether you agree with the old adage that "you make your own luck", I don''t think anyone can argue that ourselves and Man City were comfortably the better footballing teams in all aspects other than taking their chances.

In that respect, I can''t quite understand the total doom and gloom after the Villa game, as to me it seemed vastly improved over the previous dire away showing. I was concerned that Hughton might have lost the dressing room, but I think the cup match comeback mid-week shows that he still has the respect of the squad. I also think he is exactly the sort of manager we need to establish our youth setup and bring in exciting talent.

In summary, I don''t think we can judge anything this early on in the season. I still believe that come 6 months time Villa will be struggling, as the sort of luck they''ve had can''t possibly carry on for that length of time. What I do believe is that a lot of people are predisposed in their dislike of Hughton, and will always take whatever negatives they can grasp at.

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Ricardo,

 

with all due respect but you have yet to answer my questions from earlier. Why is that?  Also why are you so dismissive of anyones opinion that differs from your own? Some I agree are extreme, but I am not talking about the Hughton Outers, but those that are advocating a more positive approach to our play.  Their opinions are valid and are not just based on what they feel, but factual evidence as well.  Why do you feel thay are so wrong?

 

No-one said that we sat deep against Villa and  you know that!  You are just exagerating other posters opinions to further your own! Show me posts where reasoned argument has been given stating we sat back against Villa and I will recant! This was not the argument for the Villa result.  That was down to poor service and execution in the final 3rd.  I remember 2 chances and the penalty, so where were all these blocked shots that were on target? Exageration again?

 

You say that Tactics are just an excuse for a result. Are you being serious?  Tactics are a massive part of getting a result.  Do you really believe that tactics don''t matter?

 

This is not a personal dig regarding your opinion, but rather an observation of your responses to perfectly valid opposition to your opinion.  Debate the issue instead of putting posters down who disagree with you.

 

Snake

 

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2 shots on target, then but no way there were 12 shots by us vs Villa. Even if there were, they were obviiusly forgettable. And Villa sucks on defense. We should have had 15 more but for some unknown reason (please enlighten me) our wingers were put on their weak sides so their hard work resulted in soft, looping crosses.

Who''s idea was that?

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Houston

 

Snodgrass has played most of his career on the right and been pretty effective until recently.  That was not the issue.

 

We played quite well against Villa and with the possession and position we go into we should have won the game, but because we were so poor in delivery and execution around goal we lost!

 

I did not blame Hughton for the defeat directly.  The only thing he could have controlled was by substituting the one player who was abysmal and, although not solely, was greatly responsible for the result.  He made a judgement call and in some eyes got it wrong.  We may never know whether a different decision would have changed the outcome, but the fact remains we still did not score and promptly lost.

 

Tomorrow will be interesting to see if there has been a change in philosophy or whether we continue our bad form away from home in the league with no change in the way we play?

 

Snake

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Sitting deep is not necessarily a problem, so long as you have pace in your front line to break with speed.

However if we channel our attacks through Snodgrass, that tactic goes right out the window...

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My mistake, snake. I have seen that comment about wingers on the wrong side vs Villa many times and nobody challenged it so I ythought it was legit.

What would explain those weak ineffectual crosses? Even if rvw got his head on one, it would have had no pace and be saved easily.

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It was simply poor execution Houston!

 

I would also like to see a tradition use of wingers to see what happens as I don''t believe the so called ''modern way'' is a better way, but that does not mean it cannot be effective.

 

The fault for the defeat and poor delivery lay predominantly with the players alone.  Hopefully the wide players have been practicing their crossing this week and look to whip the ball in with pace rather than standing it up for the keeper to claim.

 

Simply

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City’s success last season under Hughton relied heavily on a potent

threat from dead ball situations which has failed to materialise so far

on the road in league defeats at Hull and Tottenham.

“We need to be better away from home than we have

been and I know we’ll take a fabulous support away again,” said

Hughton. “We would prefer to have more points, of course, but you have

to take that disappointment forward and the only way to turn it around

is to work hard on the training pitch. We try to get three points

wherever we go. Ultimately I set a team up to try and win a football

match
. You look for lifts where you can and after Villa we got that in

the cup game at Watford."

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"We try to get three points wherever we go. Ultimately I set a team up to try and win a football match"

I think it''s fair to say that most fans will disagree with that statement.

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So most fans would be wrong then.

Or he is lying.

Or he thinks that our best chance of winning involves a different approach to that of most fans.

Which means they think they know how to manage better than he does.

Your choice.

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I accept your point, and agree that a lot of fans seem to think they''re qualified managers, which they obviously are not. However, we did not set out to win against Tottenham. We went with a point, and we''d have all been chuffed to leave with a point. We lost though. We did not set out to win that game, we clearly set up to not lose. And no, I''m not a manager, and nor do I think I am.

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"Or he thinks that our best chance of winning involves a different approach to that of most fans."

If this is the case, it''s not working. We''re not winning games, and we didn''t for a large part of last season.

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Buzz Killington :

...we did not set out to win against Tottenham. We went with a point, and we''d have all been chuffed to leave with a point. We lost though. We did not set out to win that game, we clearly set up to not lose...

Setting up not to lose & setting up to win are not mutually exclusive. The difference lies in how you see your best chance of winning.

It strikes me that Hughton believes the opposition are more likely to score against us & that we are less likely to score than do most fans on here. Hence his tendency to try & negate the opposition before committing to attack.

Unfortunately the only way to decide who''s approach is correct - the apparent general view that we respect the opposition too much & should therefore concentrate on committing players forward vs our present one - is to wait & see what happens, or sack the manager & see how a different one fares.

I think it''s far too early to tell; but then, I''m a patient soul, mainly because I''ve found life to be quite a complicated business.

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Ron,You are playing with semantics. I would take issue that the two apporaches are not mutually exclusive.Using real world probabilities esetting up not to lose (especially when this involves not committing players forward or shooting) is simply not the same as setting up to win, which is an apporach which is either reliant upon both goal scoring or having a tight defence. I could perhaps accept playing it tight away from home if we had a record of a high percentage of clean sheets. However last season we conceeded 38 goals away from home. So not setting out lose would involve us improving our away scoring record from 16 to 38. Of course, no side delberately expects to lose, but on the balance of probabilities the strategy of setting out not to lose is in effect the same.

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Actually, LC, I think the difference - exemplified by Lambert vs Hughton - is setting up with the attitude to score goals & leaving the defence exposed to cope with top class attackers vs always ensuring the midfield is ready to help out with defending.

That is, of course, an over-simplification, but I remember some absolutely heroic last ditch defending by Naughton, Martin & Ruddy in particular; it helped make for thrilling football, but is a very risky strategy. Holloway tried a similar approach - & nearly got away with it - but Lambert seems to have that extra ''something'' that keeps succeeding. So far.

I know I''m in the minority, but I think, as he develops the team, Hughton will have longer term success than Lambert (whichever team he manages).

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My last post could have been a bit clearer. What I meant to say is that if we have an average of leaking 2 goals per game away from home, any team that is not set up to score an average of 2 goals away from home, will more often than not end up with nil points. So in effect, the defend deep approach wont work as a strategy unless we have radically improved the defence since last year (which we havent).

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