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Really are a key component to a successful team in the EPL. Watching Everton tonight it''s clear that Coleman and Baines make them tick. Santon is also very involved for Newcastle too.

Look at Southampton who play good football, a lot of there good stuff is through Shaw and Clyne. All of the top EPL teams have pacey, technical, attack minded full backs such as Evra, Enrique, kolarov, Gibbs, Sagna, Cole etc.

Davies scored from fullback for Swansea against arsenal the other day and along with angel is a big reason in Swansea''s good football.

I feel we''ve been very weak in this department in particular when both Garrido and Martin play as full backs. I''m not sure on Whittaker either however Olsson appears to be the in a similar mould to the modern EPL fullback.

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I think Martin plays the role OK and Olsson is good at it. The other two not so much, Garrido not at all and Whitaker is too slow even though his instinct is to play the ''modern'' way.

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[quote user="FenwayFrank"]Just remind me again, what country is the EPL in ?[/quote]you must call it the EPL in case some mistakenly thinks you are talking about the Everton who are in the GPL or the IPLso get with those groovy hip jives, babyand don''t be a square...... err, man

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[quote user="Yellow Shirt"]I think Martin plays the role OK and Olsson is good at it. The other two not so much, Garrido not at all and Whitaker is too slow even though his instinct is to play the ''modern'' way.[/quote]I agree with the OP''s observation.With regard to Yellow Shirt''s comment i don''t find that Coleman, and Baines as well, are particularly fast, neither is Kolarov, and in any instance of Davies playing full back, he certainly isn''t. I don''t believe pace is necessarily make or break in this department, the style of play or tactical awareness seems to be more of a determining factor, or perhaps more so is the players instinctive attitude and tenacity.I find an on form Whittaker is a great asset. His contribution to our unbeaten run last season was crucial in maintaining it for as long as it did, and he''s a dangerous player in the final third, whether cutting inside or delivering a cross outside from the wing, and is often pretty solid at the back. Martin is no less competent i feel (by all means he''s not letting us down in any way), but i don''t feel that tenacity from him as much as i do Whittaker. Far from perfect and makes the odd mistake, but with an extended run akin'' to the likes Martin is usually fortunate enough to get, i''d suggest he could play a pivotal role in the teams success given the opportunity.I similarly rate Olsson in this role, and think giving both a starting berth for an extended period of time will benefit us more than if we were to do otherwise.Of course they need to be utilised properly by the system of play, but that drags this into another matter entirely.

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Yes it was great seeing Russell and Martin breaking out so far on Sunday (same for our CBs). A pleasure to watch it happening within our team.

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Full back quality has long been a gripe of mine. I once read an interview in a magazine with Pele, who insisted that the key to a successful team is to have strong, effective full-backs. Looking at us, over the years, our most successful era included, Mark Bowen, and Ian Culverhouse - two of the best full backs I''ve ever seen at the club for sure, if not THE best.

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we are a team still developing having come up the divisions very fast. Last year we didn''t concede very many and were a bit dull to watch. This year to combat it we focussed on strengthening the attacking positions which we''ve done. we have january and next year to create a great team.

upgrade- RB, CB, CAM.....jobs a goodun, interesting couple of years ahead of what is a new chapter in NCFC history of trying to push into the top half of the table, nailing that 7th spot every year.

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I disagree!! I think Martin is the weak link in our side at present. He constantly frustrates me with his sideways passing!! When Whittaker is in the side its more balanced, when he was in the team it coincided with our unbeaten run if he didnt get injured where would Martin be now?

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Cundyno1, I totally disagree with your take on Russ Martin as a fullback and my argument is based on stats. The stats of all our defenders follow below, perhaps you would like to digest them and may be you will change your opinion but then again may be you wont!

 

Pass Completion % = RM (82.8), SB (79.7), MT (79.4), JG (79.0), SW (77.2), RB (69.5) - RM highest pass completion

 

Key Passes per Game = JG (0.8), SW (0.8), RM (0.5), MT (0.3), SB (0.0), RB (0.0) - JG & SW- Highest Key passes, RM third

 

Accurate Passes per Game = RM (55.3), JG (37.2), SW (33.4), MT (33.2), RB (29.5), SB (21.3) - RM Highest Accurate Passes by a country mile and almost twice as effective as the average of the other five (you could argue he is passing sideways if you want, but this argument will be shot down by a stat further down the page, but even if he is, he is still passing it accurately)

 

Accurate Crosses per Game = RM (0.5), JG (0.4), SW (0.2), SB (0.0), MT (0.0), RB (0.0) - Once again RM top, 125% more effective than JG who is second and 250% more effective than SW (You wouldn''t expect CB''s to make crosses)

 

Accurate Long Balls per Game = RM (4.8), MT(2.0), SW (1.8), SB (1.3), JG (1.2), RB (1.0) -  This is the absolute clincher for me, besides coming top in all bar one of the previous categories, he now produces almost 3 times as many accurate long balls per game than SW and almost 3 more per game than the next highest achiever MT

 

My only question is, where would we be without our top performing defender, who also happens to be our most natural and effective leader, besides being a bloody decent bloke who handles the media with ease, we are very lucky to have him.

 

Gordon Strachan sees this, as does CH and a few other managers who made enquiries this summer.

 

Have you changed your mind Cundyno1

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[quote user="Ray"]

Cundyno1, I totally disagree with your take on Russ Martin as a fullback and my argument is based on stats. The stats of all our defenders follow below, perhaps you would like to digest them and may be you will change your opinion but then again may be you wont!

 

Pass Completion % = RM (82.8), SB (79.7), MT (79.4), JG (79.0), SW (77.2), RB (69.5) - RM highest pass completion

 

Key Passes per Game = JG (0.8), SW (0.8), RM (0.5), MT (0.3), SB (0.0), RB (0.0) - JG & SW- Highest Key passes, RM third

 

Accurate Passes per Game = RM (55.3), JG (37.2), SW (33.4), MT (33.2), RB (29.5), SB (21.3) - RM Highest Accurate Passes by a country mile and almost twice as effective as the average of the other five (you could argue he is passing sideways if you want, but this argument will be shot down by a stat further down the page, but even if he is, he is still passing it accurately)

 

Accurate Crosses per Game = RM (0.5), JG (0.4), SW (0.2), SB (0.0), MT (0.0), RB (0.0) - Once again RM top, 125% more effective than JG who is second and 250% more effective than SW (You wouldn''t expect CB''s to make crosses)

 

Accurate Long Balls per Game = RM (4.8), MT(2.0), SW (1.8), SB (1.3), JG (1.2), RB (1.0) -  This is the absolute clincher for me, besides coming top in all bar one of the previous categories, he now produces almost 3 times as many accurate long balls per game than SW and almost 3 more per game than the next highest achiever MT

 

My only question is, where would we be without our top performing defender, who also happens to be our most natural and effective leader, besides being a bloody decent bloke who handles the media with ease, we are very lucky to have him.

 

Gordon Strachan sees this, as does CH and a few other managers who made enquiries this summer.

 

Have you changed your mind Cundyno1

[/quote]

 

I love it when people base their sole argument on stats. Statistics can be interpreted in many ways and the same statistic can often be used to argue two sides of the story. Basically forget statistics and just watch the game. You''ll see that Martin only ever plays an easy predictable ball, which is usually side ways or backwards, you will also notice that many of his delivery''s from an advanced position often hit the first man and are wasted.

 

You''ll also notice that Martin very rarely passes on the move. Making sure he''s either static when receiving the ball or passing it on. This makes him easy to predict and often slows play down.  

But his shortfalls are often overshadowed by his work rate and desire. Personally I like Russ but he''s a very limited defender which ever way you look at it. And if we''re to progress we need better.

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The really big point that jumps out for me from those stats is that of our current full backs (excluding Olsson) not one average more than 0.5 accurate crosses (which presumably means they are headed by one of our players) per game which to me is indicative of the fact oue full backs are clearly not getting forward often enough to put in crosses and that also when they do those crosses are not very good. i guess it could also be indicative of a lack of targets to hit in the box.

In any event it points very clearly to an area where significant improvement ought to be possible. In both of our last 2 games Martin has got forward well and got in great positions down the right but then crossing has been very poor. When you combine that with Snoddy''s recent blip in form meaning his crosses have not been finding their targets its an awful lot of good positions and opportunities to threaten the opposition goal wasted.

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I think considering we spent a combined £4m on all 4 of our full backs, we do quite well there. Healthy competition and none of them look out of place in the first team.

Unless there''s someone pretty special going on the cheap, i think we should just leave it as it is.

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Lincoln,

 

I love it when someone says the whole argument is based on stats, did you not read the last two paragraphs.  I could of course present these fact as stats, then they too could be debunked, but facts they will remain, and remember stats only reflect the facts, however I do agree if you are clever with numbers and equally clever with words you can ''spin'' them.

 

The opinion of a number of Prem Managers and one International one is that he is a bloody good defender.

 

Also, whist it is a stat. he hits 4.8 accurate long balls per game, more than double and almost three times the next best defender, now I am making an assumption which I know can be dangerous, but I am assuming the definition of an accurate long ball is forward, as opposed to sideward or backward.

 

I am also assuming the definition of accurate is that it finds its target, so as I said, or the stats say, he is top of the accurate passes per game, accurate crosses per game and accurate long balls per game league tables (only including our defenders), so if he wastes the ball what the hell do the rest of them do because he is the least wasteful! On top of which the best defence splitting pass we have made all season was probably (IMO) the one he made against Villa, if only each our midfielders made one of those per game!.

 

So, whilst I agree we should always looking to improve the team, Russ would not be the one I would looking at first, plus of course he also gives us cover at CB if needed, which is where Strachan plays him and IMO he''s probably a better judge of a player, his abilities and attitude than any of us on this forum!

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]Really are a key component to a successful team in the EPL. Watching Everton tonight it''s clear that Coleman and Baines make them tick. Santon is also very involved for Newcastle too.

Look at Southampton who play good football, a lot of there good stuff is through Shaw and Clyne. All of the top EPL teams have pacey, technical, attack minded full backs such as Evra, Enrique, kolarov, Gibbs, Sagna, Cole etc.

Davies scored from fullback for Swansea against arsenal the other day and along with angel is a big reason in Swansea''s good football.

I feel we''ve been very weak in this department in particular when both Garrido and Martin play as full backs. I''m not sure on Whittaker either however Olsson appears to be the in a similar mould to the modern EPL fullback.[/quote]
Not often that I half agree with Lincoln, but actually was also thinking that the team was crying out for a fast full back before we signed Olsson, and after we signed him (when he wasn''t being played).
Garrido simply isn''t good enough getting forward. Although I''d argue that a pacey full back is more important in games where we rely on counter attack (against the best teams). It was one of our weaknesses last season, a lack of pace. We were playing deep and soaking up pressure but couldn''t capitalise on the counter attack.
We do now have the capability to play one very fast player on each side of the pitch if we had Olsson at left back or left midfield, and Redmond on the right. I would like to see that utilised against the big teams, starting with Chelsea and Arsenal hopefully. Would like to see Redmond right and Olsson left, with Fer and Howson in the centre I think we could really hurt teams on the break. 
Everybody cries out for Lambert but really this is the only thing which makes his Villa team more dangerous than ours, their ability on the break with the pace of people like Gabby. Defensively they are crap, they just know how to get forward quickly in numbers.
I disagree about Whittaker though, he has enough pace to do his job, he can cross, he can score, he can run with a ball, he can pass - I think he''s actually a better all round right back than Russell Martin. 
We have a nice little mix now in the full back department, if Hughton knows when to use Olsson. Obviously I''d swap either of our right backs for Kyle Naughton, but I''m happy enough with what we have got. 

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Russell Martin is a very decent player, no doubt about that.

 

He''s just generally a bit crap with the ball in the final third.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]I think considering we spent a combined £4m on all 4 of our full backs, we do quite well there. Healthy competition and none of them look out of place in the first team.

Unless there''s someone pretty special going on the cheap, i think we should just leave it as it is.[/quote]

Lol. That''s the spirit, unless there cheap that''s leave it alone! Are you Neil Doncaster?

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