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tom cavendish

The Howson & RVW Problem

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Since pre-season I have been saying that Tettey & Fer should be starting in midfield, that Pilkington was the best left-winger and most capable of linking with RVW, and that Redmond should be competing with Snodgrass for a place on the right.Chris Hughton now seems to be agreeing with that and it seems to be working.However, up front the Howson & RVW partnership clearly isn''t working.For all his effort, Howson is mostly passing backwards or to the wide players. The vast majority of our attacking moves are from wide positions rather than Howson driving through the middle to link with RVW.As the tactics are so reliant upon getting the ball out wide it means that the forward midfielder (Howson) is somewhat redundant in an attacking-creative sense as he hardly ever passes the ball forward to RVW.In addition, RVW gets easily pushed off the ball and is struggling to make space to create his own chances to score because there isn''t much movement in the box from Howson.I think Hughton is trying to get around that problem by pushing Olsson well forward so that Pilkington can get into the box, but that makes us vulnerable to counter-attacks to the space behind Olsson.Unless Howson & RVW quickly develop an understanding then Hughton will have little option but to drop either one or both.I am not sure how much longer Hughton is willing to persevere in trying to get that partnership to work. If it doesn''t improve then I think the following suits the tactics of getting the ball out wide, with the full-backs pushing up in support.A) Both Elmander and Hooper drifting in and out of the ''in the hole'' position. I also think that Snodgrass & Elmander and Snodgrass & Hooper have shown some signs they could link well together.                     RuddyWhittaker Turner Bennett OlssonSnodgrass Tetty Fer Pilkington           Elmander HooperB) Elmander playing as the midfield-forward with RVW in front.                    RuddyWhittaker Turner Bennett OlssonSnodgrass Tetty Fer Pilkington            Elmander                  RVWI know it seems harsh on Howson who had one of his best games at the weekend (but still didn''t link well with RVW) but unless he starts to create chances for others to score then Hughton will soon have to change it.

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Interesting subject, I thought considering this team and way of playing are definately still evolving, there were clear signs that having RVW and Howson in the side is starting to work, hence RVW probably had his best game so far and Howson one of his best games. 

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In my opinion the role of Howson is not primarily to feed RVW. The key to success is to bring in the wide players via Howson, they get into advanced positions and provide quality crosses to RVW.

When you watch quality teams attack, individual players rarely hold the ball for very long,receive the ball, draw the defence, switch the play into space created. GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!

H

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tom cavendish wrote the following post at 09/10/2013 2:17 AM:

"Since pre-season I have been saying that Tettey & Fer should be starting in midfield, that Pilkington was the best left-winger and most capable of linking with RVW, and that Redmond should be competing with Snodgrass for a place on the right."

You and a few thousand others....

With three in midfield we are not playing two DMs and one AM however as Fer is also capable (and expected) to push forward as well. To put the whole onus on Howson as ''the'' attacking midfielder is incorrect. Additionally this formation is supposed to allow the two fullbacks to get forward more and the two wingers to pose more of a goalscoring threat.

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We tried this approach against Stoke and played them off the park for most of the game.

 

We tried it against Chelsea, and did well enought to deserve a point or 3 from the game.

 

I think it''s worth persevering with a bit longer...

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Also, our present formation is a bit more flexible than the OP gives credit for. Did not Tettey have a couple of shots on Sunday?

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The OP suggests bringing Elmander back in but when he has played it quite clearly has not worked with him and RVW.

 

Our football has clearly improved with Tettey, Fer and Howson and I don''t see a better option.

 

 

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And, as ever, I feel this shows how underestimated and unappreciated Howson is by some.

 

I think if we''d have just paid a few million to bring him in from some foreign club everyone would be raving about him as much as they do about Fer.

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Im a bit perplexed by the OP as have just seen us beat Stoke away and run Chelsea very close to at least a point. The midfield 3 looks the most effective we''ve seen in a number of seasons and we''ve only played it twice!

The freedom for howson or fer to get forward at any one time plus starting to see the wingers switch sides as they did against Chelsea is exciting and only bodes well for future games.

Also RVW undoubtedly had his best game on Sunday and the understanding between midfield and attack is only going to get stronger. Olsson showed the impact an attacking full back can have and with fer and tettey sitting in midfield it gives them the chance to get forward more and create the sort of chances that we scored from.

I can''t wait to see this formation develop and more goals scored and we start to achieve the results this formation has already shown we can.

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I think that it''s a little hard on Howson, especially as many pundits gave him the highest rating from the difficult game on Sunday. The three midfielders are slowly building up an understanding, and I hope that we shall see more of our play going quickly through the midfield, rather than (somewhat slowly) down the right wing.

In making comparisons between Wes and Howson, in the absence of Johnson, Howson is quicker and tackles better than Wes, and if he does pass back more than Wes he does not lose the ball or waste time by dwelling on the ball. Howson clearly has the better shot from distance.

 

My feeling is that the midfield threesome complement each other and are beginning to look the real job. They should be left to develop. If they develop further they could become a formidable group in their different ways.

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Tom many thanks for putting into words exactly my feelings regarding our current formation.

I will be the first to admit to have been one of Howsons biggest critics last season and it is great to see him prove me wrong and when I start to address this issue at the ground people around me naturally think I''m "having a go at Howson"

The problem for me again as I''ve said many time is that we do not have a number 10. Hoolahan it seems will pass but never shoot and Howson shoot but never pass.

Personally I would like to see Hooper given a chance in this position especially against teams outside the top 6 at home.

But something just struck me why not just rotate the personnel, it really could work. Howson played further back against Man City away and West Brom at home last season and Fer seams to have more killer passes.

We need to find a way to get RVW into the game more.

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Howson has done well recently, but he just lacks something for me.  I don''t believe we are underestimating him GJP.  If we could combine Wes and JH in a player we would have the answer.

 

Wes is frustrating, but the more creative and IMO the better fit for the way we are playing.  However he was shocking at the start of the season and deserved to be dropped.  Howson has a great engine and a good shot but is not very imaginative in his play.  I would like to see of there is a way to rotate these two and at least find a place on the bench for the other if one starts.  Not easy I know.  Who would be sacrificed?

 

Snake

 

 

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The Fer, Tettey and Howson triumvirate has been the main reason for the improved performances recently - breaking it up would be a backwards step.

 

Howson isn''t being asked to play a number 10 role, but more a number 8 (along with Fer). They both have to attack and defend, mainly providing cover to the other when they push forward. The 4-4-1-1 (4-2-3-1) has gone out the window and Norwich are now employing a 4-1-4-1 (4-3-3) - the creativity is expected to come from Pilkington and Snodgrass who are playing much narrower than previously and are both closer in position to RvW than Howson or Fer. You only need to look at the average position of players on something like StatZone to see the difference in formations.

 

Hughton finally worked out there isn''t a natural ''10'' in the squad so has switched to a formation that doesn''t require one. I can''t see the benefit of bringing back Elmander who did very little in the games he has played as a 9 and a half.

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Bethnal Yellow and Green wrote the following post at 09/10/2013 11:41 AM:

"...the creativity is expected to come from Pilkington and Snodgrass who are playing much narrower than previously and are both closer in position to RvW than Howson or Fer. "

Giving them the chance to have a crack at goal when in that position. No problem with Pilks doing this but would rather see Redmond on the right as he has a better shot on him than Snoddy. The only issue being Redmond''s defensive frailties compared to Snoddy.

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[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Tom many thanks for putting into words exactly my feelings regarding our current formation. We need to find a way to get RVW into the game more.[/quote]I used to do some scouting (for people that are now at a few Premier League clubs) so I just thought that I would try to explain a little bit about what I think Hughton is trying to do, why it isn''t quite working, and how to try to address the problem.I think Hughton has identified the problem of a lack of creatively through the middle as that must be why Olsson is pushing up so far to enable Pilkington to move into the box to support RVW (it worked v Chelsea), and it would also explain why Hughton has tried inverted wingers.You can also see that Fer & Tetty are trying longer riskier passes to RVW (and Fer''s pass to create a goal for Hooper v Watford was fantastic).However, we really need Howson to be pushing further forward through the centre into the box and linking with RVW. I also think that when Howson plays the ball out wide, Fer could get forward of Howson to get on the end of crosses and then Howson would be ready for a long shot at goal should the ball come back to the edge of the box.Hopefully, Howson & RVW can suddenly start to link together but if they don''t then I think Hughton is going to have to try an alternative combination until the transfer window opens (and then sign someone that is like the best of Wes & Howson combined).At the moment, the only attacking creatively is to get the ball wide for crosses into the box. They are old-school tactics and it used to be the case that for it to be effective you needed a centre-forward that was dominant in the air and strong on the ball combined with a quick striker that was a good finisher.We have 2 of the quick strikers (Hooper & RVW) but not really the big powerful striker to compliment him. The closest we have is Elmander.Therefore unless the Howson & RVW combination starts to work then I think we need to switch to Elmander & Hooper (with both linking with the central midfield) or Elmander & RVW (with RVW playing in front of Elmander).In an attacking sense, Holt used to get the ball in a deep position, pass it out wide and then get forward to try to get on the end of a cross. I think Elmander and Hooper should be able to do that which means that we wouldn''t really miss Howson passing the ball wide.

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[quote user="tom cavendish"]I used to do some scouting (for people that are now at a few Premier League clubs)[/quote]You''ve mentioned this before Tom and I find it very interesting. Can you name these people and tell us what positions they hold at Premier League clubs i.e managers coaches etc? Also, whether you were actually paid for this work or did you do it as a favour to them? Finally, did you unearth any gems? Thanks.

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I think we''ve already seen that Elmander and Van Wolfskwinel does not work that well. I would be more than happy not to see that partnership for a while.

Howson has done a good job in the last few games, but I still think he lacks a creativity and attacking edge in the final third which his role in that midfield trio with Fer and Tettey ideally requires. Hopefully he can make the step up and add more of that to his game. Even still though, in away games or against tougher opponents I would certainly still consider that trio a good option, but there may be also a more creative option who offers the opposition more problems in the final third whether that be pilkington, hooper, hoolahan or snodgrass.

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[quote user="peateabee"]I think we''ve already seen that Elmander and Van Wolfskwinel does not work that well. I would be more than happy not to see that partnership for a while.

Howson has done a good job in the last few games, but I still think he lacks a creativity and attacking edge in the final third which his role in that midfield trio with Fer and Tettey ideally requires. Hopefully he can make the step up and add more of that to his game. Even still though, in away games or against tougher opponents I would certainly still consider that trio a good option, but there may be also a more creative option who offers the opposition more problems in the final third whether that be pilkington, hooper, hoolahan or snodgrass.[/quote]RVW is being wasted because the team isn''t playing to his strengths. The problem is that Howson & RVW have not yet linked well together. A Howson & Hooper combination would likely suffer much the same problem.Inverted wingers have not solved the problem. Getting Pilkington into the box has helped a little but he can''t cross to himself so Olsson (or Garrido) has to cross the ball (and then they risk getting caught out of position).Regardless, neither RVW or Hooper are particularly well suited to being a lone striker. To get the best out of either we need someone forward giving far better support and scoring goals too.Elmander is an option. Perhaps even try Becchio at times because he has shown that he can make some good forward openings to feet in and around the box.Unless the RVW & Howson (or Wes) link starts to work then RVW & Becchio or Hooper & Elmander might work better until the transfer window opens.

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[quote user="tom cavendish"]I used to do some scouting (for people that are now at a few Premier League clubs)[/quote]Washing cars during bob a job week?

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The Tettey, Fer and Howson midfield has seen us produce our two best performances of the season. This is considered a problem. I am very confused.

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It wouldn''t be right of me to name names. I used to be asked if I would do some opposition match reports, check on potential signings etc. However, it only covered the region near to where I lived. My track record was fantastic in spotting good players who go on to better things but hardly any were signed. I would get notified that the manager was looking to fill a particular position and I would be asked to make a recommendation as to who should be signed for that position.In a way, it was a frustrating way to work. If for example I spotted a great left-back that could be available for a low fee and low wages that was far better than the club had, then the manager wouldn''t be particularly interested unless he happened to be looking for a left-back. By the time that the manager wanted to sign a left-back, the player I had previously recommended would have signed for a bigger club.For example, I would also be asked to go to a game to watch a particular player and then the next day the manager would call to ask my opinion. I never got one wrong. A lot of managers are on good terms with agents who recommend the players they represent. I thought it was wrong that agents were paid huge sums for recommending their own players whereas impartial club scouts were paid very little.I was told that my opposition match reports were excellent. Having said that, it might not count for much as I was shocked to read how poor the reports were by some other scouts. Comprehensive video match analysis is now the norm so scouting top level opposition isn''t so vital as it once was.

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[quote user="tom cavendish"]My track record was fantastic in spotting good players......the manager would call to ask my opinion. I never got one wrong.......I was told that my opposition match reports were excellent......[/quote]Wow Tom, that''s very impressive. With your undoubted ability to spot new talent and judging by your previous posts, a master tactician, were you never tempted to offer your services to the club when Gunn was appointed? We would probably never have been relegated to the Third Division nor been in the bottom three of the Prem now. [Y]

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"I was told that my opposition match reports were excellent......"

some may remember how and why the Goons would describe somebody as a genious

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