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FAO: Ground Expansion Advocates

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Of whom I am one.
I''ve been daydreaming a little today about ground expansion. We already know that knocking down the City stand and replacing it with a larger stand is the likely route to expansion, but we also know that figures quoted put the price at up to £30m.
This is the route that McNally and the board seem to wish to go down, and from an aesthetic point of view it would make the most sense. You only have to look at any aerial photo to see that the City Stand is the odd one out and is beginning to look a bit like your typical main stand in League One or Two.
But it isn''t the only option. Other options include adding a second tier to the Jarrold Stand (it was built with deep foundations to take a second tier apparently). 
The question is, would you rather hold out for the long term to get a hugely impressive City Stand and then pretty much complete out stadium (if we ignore the hotel monstrosity), or would you - if it was hypothetically affordable in the immediate future - accept a huge Jarrold Stand in the short term future if it meant being left with a massive stand opposite a tiny stand?
This is hypothetical of course, but we have been told that it is technically feasible to add both a second tier to the City Stand and the Jarrold Stand without demolition. It is the club who would like to demolish the City Stand and build a new modern stand. 
Despite wanting the club to achieve the objective of increasing the capacity, I don''t think I would be too happy if we were left with a giant Jarrold Stand and a tiny City Stand, so I personally would want to lean towards waiting much longer for a new improved City Stand. 
What do other vocal proponents of capacity increase think about this? Avid anti-expansionists need not reply. 

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you are are complete numpty at timesno one is against expanding the stadium so stop making up sh ite so that you can argue against itand maybe you could tell us who said " that it is technically feasible to add both a second tier to the City Stand" and when

ps have you actually ever been to Carrow Road ?

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[quote user="City1st"] no one is against expanding the stadium so stop making up sh ite so that you can argue against it [/quote]
Really, nobody? Nobody at all? Not a single person? [quote] and maybe you could tell us who said " that it is technically feasible to add both a second tier to the City Stand" and when [/quote] 
Hundreds of references to this all over the internet, including the pink un, and even a sentence on Wikipedia with a citation. Your bone idleness if your issue not mine you doddery old nincompoop. 
[quote] ps have you actually ever been to Carrow Road ? [/quote]Have you ever been laid? 

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Replacing the Main Stand is the obvious option. The problem is what to do with the 4,000 ST holders. Again, there is a simple solution, the foundations are already in place for an additional tier holding an extra 4,000 in the South Stand. So, the ST holders can be moved to the South Stand for a season whilst the new Main Stand is erected. This would take the capacity to 39,000 when completed.1. Could we sell an extra 12,000 seats (just under 27,000 currently)? (a lot more away fans might help).2. What would it cost and could we afford it? (if we stay in the Prem and saved £10m for the next five years we probably could).

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[quote user="lappinitup"]Replacing the Main Stand is the obvious option. The problem is what to do with the 4,000 ST holders. Again, there is a simple solution, the foundations are already in place for an additional tier holding an extra 4,000 in the South Stand. So, the ST holders can be moved to the South Stand for a season whilst the new Main Stand is erected. This would take the capacity to 39,000 when completed.1. Could we sell an extra 12,000 seats (just under 27,000 currently)? (a lot more away fans might help).2. What would it cost and could we afford it? (if we stay in the Prem and saved £10m for the next five years we probably could).[/quote]
Do the FA place a restriction on the number of season tickets that can be sold? 
Forgive me if I am wrong but our ground has a capacity of 27250, the away allocation is 2500. 
That leaves 24750. There are 22000 season tickets in issue, a maximum of approx 4000 of those in the City Stand. That would leave us able to "rehouse" approximately 2750 of them by simply having a season without any casual tickets. 
I don''t know how many come off the waiting list each season each season, but that would easily swallow up half of the other 1250 wouldn''t it? 
So that leaves circa 600 fans. 
We are required by the FA top offer a minimum of 5% of our ground capacity to away fans. That means that we could get away with offering as few as 1163 away tickets. 
So no casual tickets, no people from the waiting list getting tickets, reducing the away allocation in line with our temporary capacity reduction (which would actually probably boost demand for away tickets in the following season), rehousing 4000 season ticket holders (minus those who simply don''t renew) looks feasible to me unless I am missing something (like a regulation?). 
39000 is far too large, I wouldn''t support that, don''t want to see large areas of empty seats behind the goals. 

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It''s precisely because of the very high percentage of season ticket holders that we are unable to expand. it was the Club themselves who pushed and pushed season tickets so they only have themselves to blame!!!

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]It''s precisely because of the very high percentage of season ticket holders that we are unable to expand. it was the Club themselves who pushed and pushed season tickets so they only have themselves to blame!!![/quote]
I just illustrated how that is feasible though, we can halve the away allocation, and if we assume that all 4000 city stand seats are taken by season ticket holders or necessary seats for officials and directors etc then that leaves us with...
27250 - 4000 = 23250
23250 - 1163 (minimum away allocation) = 22087
22000 season ticket holders, 22000 seats. Then you have the people who don''t renew, which is probably a good 500+ a year? 
The club have actually planned this perfectly, by keeping exactly the number of casual seats that they require to allow us to knock down the City Stand while not having to remove anybodies season ticket (as long as some are happy to sit behind a post in the Wensum corner). 

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Had we been one of those clubs with a super rich owner, then I am sure we would now be looking forward to the new stand being completed. But, that''s not the case and the club has only just come into a decent financial position. I suspect that once we secure next season in this league an announcement will be made shortly afterwards that the ground will be enlarged. I am actually convinced of that....particularly as I suspect we will see huge bids for two or three of our players in the summer that will help underpin the subsequent new signings. 

I really hope they go for a clever option of building a second tier on to the Main Stand. Surely it can be done, and to look good.....and with limited inconvenience to the existing seats, other than perhaps the removal of the roof...so some inconvenience, but at least they would get a free sowester. The lower tier could then be refurbished next (along with other parts of the ground that really do need bringing up to modern day standards and expecations)  with a temporary move upstairs for the existing ticket holders in the Main Stand.

 

I always like a thread about this topic..... 

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]I suspect that once we secure next season in this league an announcement will be made shortly afterwards[/quote]I think you''re being a bit optimistic Mark. If we look at what Bowkett said yesterday he hinted at 2022....."Mr Bowkett said the other problem would be how to seat season ticket

holders in the City Stand for a whole season, with the club having the

highest ratio of season tickets to seats in the league.

He added that the potential winter break for the

2022 World Cup in Qatar could even help, continuing: “Then there’s the

second question as to how would you do it and we cannot see taking the

stand down and rebuilding it without having a full season of

non-occupancy."

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Yes, but that does sound like a very throw away comment, I say that because any potential winter break would make very little difference to the planning of a build like a new stand, perhaps six to eight games would be moved, lets say a max of ten, still have to do something for the other games in that season. They need to start thinking outside of the box, otherwise the opportunity to expand the supporter base at a good pace will be lost.........they need new supporters and wont get them by having so few seats available for another 9 years......

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]Yes, but that does sound like a very throw away comment, I say that because any potential winter break would make very little difference to the planning of a build like a new stand, perhaps six to eight games would be moved, lets say a max of ten, still have to do something for the other games in that season. They need to start thinking outside of the box, otherwise the opportunity to expand the supporter base at a good pace will be lost.........they need new supporters and wont get them by having so few seats available for another 9 years......[/quote]
The easiest and cheapest solution would be ''safe standing'' if the FA could be won over.
We could double the capacity of the Barclay Lower by converting it to safe standing. 

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I''ve long said that putting a top tier on the Jarold stand would be the best way forward in terms of expanding Carrod Road cause it could be done without any reduction in capacity. The only detriment would be fans in the Jarold stand being "roofless" for a few games but hey short term pain for long term gain!

 

This week accounts show what a massive undertaking a new rebuild will be!

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Sorry to pour water on the Jarrold stand. I believe with the Doomcaster facts, the Jarrold stand was built with the cheaper option where it couldn''t be expanded - they had two options at the time. The future wasn''t the real plan then.

As much as the hotel was the best option for the club in the corner infill. All bad decisions in his famous hindsight quotes. Look where he is now and what he is doing. May be a nice person but awful in the job.

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I am not convinced the Hotel is as bad as some make it out to be to be honest, other than it''s design could clearly have been better to blend into the ground a little better, and some thought could have been made to actually have some match day use of the side facing the pitch. At the end of the day, all clubs need lots of different streams of income and the catering and Hotel ventures add to our club''s financial position, plus at the time the decision was made the club were in a very tricky financial situation and those in charge at that time had to make some difficult calls.

As for Doncaster, looks like he has a pretty decent position right now?

I too like the idea of the standing areas that convert in to seats, would be ideal for the lower Barclay surely, and you would think the club would look at it and then present a report about their decision on this option. That said, not so sure it would increase capacity, anyone know??     

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["Thorny"]Sorry to pour water on the Jarrold stand. I believe with the Doomcaster facts, the Jarrold stand was built with the cheaper option where it couldn''t be expanded - they had two options at the time. The future wasn''t the real plan then. As much as the hotel was the best option for the club in the corner infill. All bad decisions in his famous hindsight quotes. Look where he is now and what he is doing. May be a nice person but awful in the job.

 

 

 

 

Many people say the stand was built with foundations for an upper tier, others say the opposite, I''m not sure. I''ve learned over the years the club doesn''t give much information away and most people who think they are in the know including past and present members of staff actually aren''t!

 

But it is possible to build an upper tier on the Jarold without existing foundations cause such a structure could be built with its own foundations. Very possible cause Glasgow Rangers built a third tier on their main stand which was built in the late 1920''s!

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1. People seem to forget that the car park directly behind the Jarrold stand has been sold to a housing association.2. Having just cleared the club debts of £23m I doubt the club is going to be in a rush to take on a £30m debt.3. The priority is to maintain Premier League status. Should the club be relegated then the priority will be to return to the Premier League.4. £30m for an extra 7k-8k seats isn''t great value for money. The long-term solution for NCFC could be a new stadium.

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[quote user="tom cavendish"]£30m for an extra 7k-8k seats isn''t great value for money. The long-term solution for NCFC could be a new stadium.[/quote]A 35,000 seater stadium would cost considerably more than a new stand and would still only mean an extra 7k-8k seats. You make no sense.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]

As for Doncaster, looks like he has a pretty decent position right now?  

[/quote]
Do you realise how hated Neil Doncaster is in Scotland? 
During his tenure they have seen him try to get Rangers let off the hook against the will of the Scottish people, even most Rangers fans, the Scottish League Cup has been left without a sponsor, and his grand plans to rejuvenate the league and bring money into Scottish football pretty much resulted in him simply rebranding the first division ''the Championship'', the second division ''league one'', and the third division ''league two'' (that''s original).

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[quote user="The New Boy Le Juge"][quote user="Dubai Mark"]

As for Doncaster, looks like he has a pretty decent position right now?  

[/quote]
Do you realise how hated Neil Doncaster is in Scotland? 
During his tenure they have seen him try to get Rangers let off the hook against the will of the Scottish people, even most Rangers fans, the Scottish League Cup has been left without a sponsor, and his grand plans to rejuvenate the league and bring money into Scottish football pretty much resulted in him simply rebranding the first division ''the Championship'', the second division ''league one'', and the third division ''league two'' (that''s original).
[/quote]
Replace **** with a popular four letter word starting with ''c''. 

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This thread is not about Neil Doncaster but about ground expansion.

Ground expansion is a recurrent topic on this forum with the same points, for or against, raised with appalling consistency. People seem to have become entrenched, but times change.

I want it done. The current main stand is an anathema and if we are to aspire to Premiership status for some time to come then we need at least to accommodate 30,000+ Norfolk souls on a weekly basis. It''s part of the package ... very much so. IMO

Now we are in the black it is less about immediate cost but more about long term gain. Long term business thinking really.

Those who use the loss of income and the where do we house the 4,000 argument whilst the stand is being erected are more than a bit out of date.

I refer all to my speed construction posting above.

It can be done.

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]This thread is not about Neil Doncaster but about ground expansion.

Ground expansion is a recurrent topic on this forum with the same points, for or against, raised with appalling consistency. People seem to have become entrenched, but times change.

I want it done. The current main stand is an anathema and if we are to aspire to Premiership status for some time to come then we need at least to accommodate 30,000+ Norfolk souls on a weekly basis. It''s part of the package ... very much so. IMO

Now we are in the black it is less about immediate cost but more about long term gain. Long term business thinking really.

Those who use the loss of income and the where do we house the 4,000 argument whilst the stand is being erected are more than a bit out of date.

I refer all to my speed construction posting above.

It can be done.[/quote]
I can''t see how the cost would be particularly prohibitive, if it is spread over 10 years. The £30m would surely have included interest payments, so that''s £3m a year for ten years. 
Not including revenue, so the amount taken out of our budget would be significantly less than £3m, and the price of football increases every year. The interest rates won''t rise as fast as ticket inflation. 
Can''t see how cost would be prohibitive myself, simple maths shows that the 4000 can be accommodated by not offering casual tickets and reducing the away allocation. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. 
I''m not so sure about "speed construction" though, we aren''t in China, this is Britain - we are famously inefficient, builders don''t work if it rains, and you will be lucky to get half an hours work out of labourers in between fag breaks and cuppas. We would be left without a main stand for about a year I suspect. It would be quite an undertaking, the foundations would be very deep. Those "speed building" things are usually just iron girders, glass and concrete. I would hope that the club would have the sense to build the new stand in brick to match the rest of our quality stadium, instead of using paneled metal sheets which would look terrible in the future. 

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[quote user="The New Boy"]The £30m would surely have included interest payments, so that''s £3m a year for ten years.[/quote]"Chairman Alan Bowkett said rebuilding the City Stand for a capacity of

35,000 would cost around £30m, which would be mortgaged over 20 years

and cost around £2.5m per year in payments".20 x £2.5m = £50m.

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="The New Boy"]The £30m would surely have included interest payments, so that''s £3m a year for ten years.[/quote]"Chairman Alan Bowkett said rebuilding the City Stand for a capacity of

35,000 would cost around £30m, which would be mortgaged over 20 years

and cost around £2.5m per year in payments".20 x £2.5m = £50m.

[/quote]
Fair enough (and thanks) but £2.5m is chicken feed isn''t it?
If we did manage to fill the 4000 new seats, at say average revenue per seat of £500 per season, that is £2m a year in gate receipts alone. Then there is sponsorship hoardings, corporate hospitality, could incorporate a large pub, we could invite Barry Manilow to upgrade his usual East Anglian venue of choice. 
I know that relegation would significantly reduce our income (although parachute payments are very generous this year), but is £2.5m a year really a huge amount for a club which has achieved gates of 25000 in league one and apparently shifts 50000 replica shirts a season?
The net figure (after income) would surely equate to little more than the annual salary of an average squad player, say a Simeon Jackson or an Elliott Ward, or at worst the annual salary of Elliott Bennett. 

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Do remember reading in the Pink un at the time that the stand was built with adding a second tier in mind. If so, surely this is the best way to go. Add the second tier, move season ticket holders from City stand into this while that is being rebuilt. No loss of income by a stand being closed for rebuilding.

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[quote user="star_manic"]Do remember reading in the Pink un at the time that the stand was built with adding a second tier in mind. If so, surely this is the best way to go. Add the second tier, move season ticket holders from City stand into this while that is being rebuilt. No loss of income by a stand being closed for rebuilding.[/quote]
But then we end up spending many more millions than we need to, on a ground which would hold many more people than it needs to. This dilutes the return on investment (it would be years before we could fill it to capacity regularly) and leaves us risking having large areas of empty seats (a complete atmosphere killer).
We simply don''t need 40000 seats, 32000 to 35000 would be just fine. I would much rather us put some fans through short term pain and end up with a realistic stadium than spending millions building a second tier on the Jarrold just so that a few season tickets don''t get one year of inconvenience.
It is ridiculously easy to put 22000 season ticket holders in a ballot, drawing the unfortunate souls who don''t get a season ticket for a year, promising them a set amount of casual tickets for the season and guaranteeing them a season ticket in the following year.
If those people get so upset that they choose to stop following the club for one year of inconvenience for the long term good of the club then stick it to them.

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"I''m not so sure about "speed construction" though, we aren''t in China, this is Britain - we are famously inefficient, builders don''t work if it rains, and you will be lucky to get half an hours work out of labourers in between fag breaks and cuppas. We would be left without a main stand for about a year I suspect. It would be quite an undertaking, the foundations would be very deep. Those "speed building" things are usually just iron girders, glass and concrete. I would hope that the club would have the sense to build the new stand in brick to match the rest of our quality stadium, instead of using paneled metal sheets which would look terrible in the future."
 
 
Needs must, times change, think outside the box.
 
There''s always a first. 

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Even if the stadium was 50,000.

There still wouldn''t be any noise.

Still making money with 27000.

Leave it how it is. Think we''d struggle to fill 35,000 every week.

Especially in the championship

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